The balls jump after hitting the rail on my Diamond Pro.. Any ideas?

scruffy1 said:
Let me ask ALL of you guys something. If you built or calibrated a set of rails for a customer that hopped two months down the road. What would your solution be for the customer.
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That's a great question, and more than likely this is going to happen....so what's the fix?

Well, if the customer's not real smart you can charge him again...but give him a discount of $50 this time around. lol ( of course I'm kidding )

The truth is the change that we're making is not 100 percent as of right now.
It's going to take some time before we know for sure down the road....maybe the change is dead nuts...maybe not...time will tell.

There are so many factors to consider....the real problem is why one table and not the other...all tables play right when the cloth is new....no ball hop...no short banks...balls don't spring off the rails.......but when is the cloth old...when are the balls out of round?

The truth is ..the more the cloth wears..the better the table should play...bottom line.
Now, are the cushions the problem....the humidity...the balls...how do you answer that without being in front of the table.

Something is not up to spec....you just can't think recutting the sub-rail....problem solved. The cushions could have a flaw....I don't have the answers....we just think the spec's we're using are the correct ones right now....and there's a major difference in the play as of right now.....we'll see how the tables play in 2 or 3 years from now.

The tables I've done play great as of now with Artemis cushions....hopefully that remains. When I do tables with Brunswick superspeed...the table stays playing the same over time.

I have a GC5 set-up in my house and I redone the sub-rails and put Artemis on...the table played great for 6 months...now the table has some inconsistent play.

Now, is it the balls...old cloth...dirty...air condition...what's the guess?
I believe we need to investigate the Artemis cushions more...what's the perfect bevel on the sub-rail for that profile cushion? That's what needs more work (IMO)

I don't believe there's a more cleaner, or better made cushion on the market than the Artemis...but does that make it the best choice?

I going to put a lot of effort in to the geometry of that cushion....can I find something out, I don't know...but I do know the softness of the neoprene facing changes the ball rattle in the pockets...the artemis cushions are softer than most??????

I'm not saying I'm right...or wrong....I'm saying I truly don't have the answers...but I'm going to try and figure it out for all of us.

There are a lot of great mechanic's today, between Glen, John, Bobby, and Jay, I'm more than sure one of us will figure something.

Diamond's a great table..we just have a higher demand for better play from the players today. The table's made great...the cushion needs looked at. (IMO)

Mark Gregory
 
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what angle did the original subrails have?
what angle are they re-tooled to?
what is the original and subsequent reasoning behind the answers to my first two questions?

it seems like everyone is avoiding the actual facts that we are discussing and I would like to know why.
 
Dartman said:
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I'm not doubting that a recalibration doesn't improve playability however I have some heartburn with one of your trainees pushing this service as the only way to fix a ball hop issue.
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YO DARTMAN:


I take offense to you saying, that I said "recalibration was the only way to fix this problem." The OP asked how to fix ball hop and I suggested recalibration, as I have never had a ball hop issue on a table I have done rail work on.

I NEVER SAID IT WAS THE ONLY WAY.

I SAID IT WAS MY WAY TO ELIMINATE THE PROBLEM

YOU WANT TO SIT AROUND AND DIAGNOSE A TABLE YOU'VE NEVER SEEN AND TRY TO COME UP WITH A REASON FOR THE BALL HOP.

I SIMPLY SAID RECALIBRATE THE RAILS. END OF PROBLEM.

THE ONLY REASON YOU SAY I'M PUSHING THIS SERVICE IS BECAUSE I HAVE TO REPEAT MYSELF 3 OR 4 TIMES BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR MY ANSWER. THATS FINE. I'M NOT TRYING TO HELP YOU. I WAS SIMPLY TRYING TO HELP THE OP SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

GOOD LUCK FINDING OUT WHY IT HOPS. I DON'T CARE WHY? I JUST FIX THE PROBLEM AND MOVE ON.

GORDON --GLENS TRAINEE!!!HAHAHA
425-275-8255
 
Zipper

Sometimes I need a zipper for my mouth. But, are you kidding me! I buy a Diamond it has a problem and the cure is to recut the angle of the sub-rail! Re-calibration makes it sound like you are turning a dial.

I have seen bar tables with sticky dirty balls in high humidity conditions have ball hop pretty bad. To the OP are you running a dehumidifier in your basement? Basements are inherently high humidity because air travels from from hot to cold and brings with it moisture laden air. This is why a glass of ice water sitting on a table has water beading up on the outside of the glass. Even if your basement is "dry" it is highly humid in most cases.

We don't have a lot of Diamonds around these parts but I have played on them and they are unquestionably high quality tables. I have however taken exception to the springy rails and they definitely do not bank like what I would expect. That being said perhaps my expectations of how a table should play is based on poor playing tables. Diamond has certainly set the bar in many areas for how a table "should" play.
 
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Everyone.

Josh has contacted me and he will take care of this when I recover.

The balls are clean, so is the cloth and the basement is dry.

The installer is not at fault, I just wanted answers to my original question. Did not dream it would cause arguments. I still live my Diamond table and stand by Josh the installer and his work.

Peace out!!
 
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perfectpocketz said:
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The truth is the change that we're making is not 100 percent as of right now.
...
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Hey Mark
It's obvious the change to the cushion geometry is a step in the right direction otherwise I doubt Diamond would have modified their rail design. Question is did this rail mod come about First as an improvement to the existing geometry (for all tables) or more as a fix to a flawed design (just Diamond tables) that carried over as a way to improve other tables. One would think the latter due to the complaints about how Diamond rails played.
 
MOJOE said:
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The installer is not at fault, I just wanted answers to my original question. Did not dream it would cause arguments. I still live my Diamond table and stand by Josh the installer and his work.
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Those of us that know Josh also stand by him and his top shelf work which leads to the questions of why didn't you just call him to begin with. You posted a thread asking for possible reasons for your hop problem then chose to go somewhat underground with pm's, emails, phone calls, whatever. Condition of the balls & cloth, climate conditions, wood swell and deteriorated cushions/glue can all be contributing factors but the first thing usually checked is cushion nose height.

There's no arguments here, just differences of opinion. Since you didn't mention any playability problem other then hop and presuming the table plays ok otherwise some would want to diagnose only the hop problem (obviously the reason for this thread) while others opt for major surgery.
 
matteroner said:
what angle did the original subrails have?
what angle are they re-tooled to?
what is the original and subsequent reasoning behind the answers to my first two questions?

it seems like everyone is avoiding the actual facts that we are discussing and I would like to know why.
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I would also like this information clarified.
I have an older Diamond Pro, and the tools and skill necessary to bring it up to the 2010 specs.
Is there somewhere I can find a cross-section diagram with the updated dimensions and angles shown?

Thanks,Dan
 
Table

I suggest you send your rails to a specialist to be reworked. The info is out there, but the tools and equipment needed to do the work is expensive and difficult to grasp. Where are you located?
 
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If that is what needs doing, I would make a jig and use a router to recut the angle relative to the table surface. If I understand right, the objective is to tilt the cushion upward at the tip without changing its height over the slate?
I can figure this out myself, using a cad program if I have to. I just thought someone here would not mind sharing that info, saving me trouble. You have already told me the amount to reduce the thickness of the subrail. I only need the angle.
Thanks, Dan
 
oldschool1478 said:
If that is what needs doing, I would make a jig and use a router to recut the angle relative to the table surface. If I understand right, the objective is to tilt the cushion upward at the tip without changing its height over the slate?
I can figure this out myself, using a cad program if I have to. I just thought someone here would not mind sharing that info, saving me trouble. You have already told me the amount to reduce the thickness of the subrail. I only need the angle.
Thanks, Dan
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I'm in Virginia right now with no phone reception, so call me at 540-616-4717...ask Sammy to talk to me, that's his phone #, he's the room owner here.

Glen
 
oldschool1478 said:
If that is what needs doing, I would make a jig and use a router to recut the angle relative to the table surface. If I understand right, the objective is to tilt the cushion upward at the tip without changing its height over the slate?
I can figure this out myself, using a cad program if I have to. I just thought someone here would not mind sharing that info, saving me trouble. You have already told me the amount to reduce the thickness of the subrail. I only need the angle.
Thanks, Dan
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540-616-4017...sorry:o
 
reverend said:
Like Gordon said above, the sub-rails need to be calibrated, re-cut, to the right angles for the rails to play correctly. The nose is at the right height, but the back of the cushion that is attached to the sub-rail is not at the right angle.
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So then, that means all red label /pre-2010 Diamonds have this problem?
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
So then, that means all red label /pre-2010 Diamonds have this problem?
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Problem?...no, just the older designed sub-rails...pre Realkingcobra if you want to call it that...LOL, but Brunswick's have kind of the same sub-rail design as Diamond's older design too, yet no one really complains about them;)
 
realkingcobra said:
Problem?...no, just the older designed sub-rails...pre Realkingcobra if you want to call it that...LOL, but Brunswick's have kind of the same sub-rail design as Diamond's older design too, yet no one really complains about them;)
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Well, I've heard little about ball hop off the cushions being an issue with GC's. And if the subrail design is the same and that controls everything then how come banking short has not been a major issue with GC's like it has been with Diamonds? I'm not arguing here, just trying to understand because banking short and ball hop have not been the issue with GC's as they have with Diamonds, afaik.

Thanks, always appreciate the info you guys provide.
 
I am not a mechanic, but if the subrail design is the same between both, then the only difference is the kind of rubber on them.

Diamond 9's come standard with Artemus cushions, GC's did not.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
Well, I've heard little about ball hop off the cushions being an issue with GC's. And if the subrail design is the same and that controls everything then how come banking short has not been a major issue with GC's like it has been with Diamonds? I'm not arguing here, just trying to understand because banking short and ball hop have not been the issue with GC's as they have with Diamonds, afaik.

Thanks, always appreciate the info you guys provide.
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Has a lot to do with exposure, when was the last time Brunswick supplied 75 GC's for use in a pool tournament? The tables used the most in tournaments, are going to get picked at the most as well. I don't fault Diamond for building a table that played a little different that most other tables, as they were learning how to build tables on their own since they first started back in the late 80's.

I mean, this isn't an industry that you can just go out an hire someone to show you how to build pool tables, when you can't even get the correct answers from the suppliers of cushions or slate. No cushion manufacture provides the answers to the questions of...at what sub-rail thickness does your cushions play at their best?...or how do you, the slate manufacture...sugest the best way to level the slates you produce?

Back when Brunswick was building the GC3's, almost ALL of them had the cushions go bad, some were even bad right out of the box when the table was being set up new....but how quickly everyone forgets about Brunswick's problems...when there's a new kid on the block to pick at instead of Brunswick, yet Brunswick is still held at a higher level than Diamond is, and yet does nothing to give back to this industry...why? I could really go on about this, but....what's the point?

Glen
 
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