The balls jump after hitting the rail on my Diamond Pro.. Any ideas?

Has a lot to do with exposure, when was the last time Brunswick supplied 75 GC's for use in a pool tournament? The tables used the most in tournaments, are going to get picked at the most as well. I don't fault Diamond for building a table that played a little different that most other tables, as they were learning how to build tables on their own since they first started back in the late 80's.

I mean, this isn't an industry that you can just go out an hire someone to show you how to build pool tables, when you can't even get the correct answers from the suppliers of cushions or slate. No cushion manufacture provides the answers to the questions of...at what sub-rail thickness does your cushions play at their best?...or how do you, the slate manufacture...sugest the best way to level the slates you produce?

Back when Brunswick was building the GC3's, almost ALL of them had the cushions go bad, some were even bad right out of the box when the table was being set up new....but how quickly everyone forgets about Brunswick's problems...when there's a new kid on the block to pick at instead of Brunswick, yet Brunswick is still held at a higher level than Diamond is, and yet does nothing to give back to this industry...why? I could really go on about this, but....what's the point?

Glen

Perception is an interesting thing. You certainly get around a lot more than I do and are better informed of what room owners and home table owners around the country think about GC's versus Diamonds. My knowledge of that is mostly what I read on AZB but my perception is just the opposite - that Gold Crown bashing is a somewhat popular past time around here but everyone bows down to the mighty Diamond. :D

Let me give you an example of what I mean. Everyone complains about how Olhausens rattle balls hit down the rail with speed, but on a Diamond it seems players find this to be an endearing quality. ;) But now that you mention it, I do hear a lot more complaints about the Diamond pockets marking the balls than I do about GC 3 (or is it GC2) pockets leaving streaks on the shaft of the cue.

Personally, the supporting pool thing just isn't that significant to me. There's nothing altruistic about Diamond's support of pool, it is a business decision, a marketing strategy. If it wasn't selling pool tables for them I doubt they would do it. Brunswick supported pool plenty back in time but I guess they decided it wasn't paying off. Don't know that I agree with it because it seems to be working for Diamond but again, that's just a business decision. And people seem to give them no credit whatsoever for the events they have supported in recent years like the Mosconi Cup (yes, I know the last one was played on a Diamond), the World Pool Masters, and World Cup of Pool. I suppose if Brunswick decided to put its resources back into sponsoring tournaments they could outbid Diamond to the point that Diamond might make the business decision to not support pool in that way (except of course, for the BCAPL Nationals and CSI events;)). That wouldn't diminish my perception of Diamond at all as a good company making a great table. Just that it no longer would make business sense for them in their view.

My opinion is that both are great tables - standing alone as the two best. There are some differences in how they play, much of it involving the difference in shelf depth, but that is a more a matter of personal preference, not so much that one is better than the other. But I am surprised that in your experience people beat up on Diamond more than Brunswick. :D

BTW, I think a big reason why some of the GC bashing is unfair is that the importance of a good mechanic is under-appreciated. So people see the relatively new (or brand new) Pro Am their home room just got and compare it to the GC2 or 3 that used to be in it's place that had been neglected for decades by management and chopped on by lowest-bid hack "installers" over and over and over. I realized the importance of the set-up early on when I joined on here. That's why when I bought my "4" I chose the right mechanic that could install your frame fix and bring in the pockets correctly, even though I had to wait a couple of months with my table in pieces on the garage floor for him to come back from medical leave. It was most definitely worth the wait. ;)

Good discussion. Thanks.
 
Last edited:
... yet Brunswick is still held at a higher level than Diamond is, and yet does nothing to give back to this industry...why? ...
Glen

For one, they are an established name and you can actually walk into many table dealers around the country and buy one. Outside of AZ many of the common folks probably never heard of Diamond but I think that's changing as Smart tables replace Valleys. We're well beyond the golden age of billiards and times and diversions have changed where many do not take an interest in pool as they did way back when. JMO altho a bit off-topic. :D
 
Last edited:
Well, I've heard little about ball hop off the cushions being an issue with GC's. And if the subrail design is the same and that controls everything then how come banking short has not been a major issue with GC's like it has been with Diamonds? I'm not arguing here, just trying to understand because banking short and ball hop have not been the issue with GC's as they have with Diamonds, afaik.

Thanks, always appreciate the info you guys provide.

The Artemis and Super speed cushions are close to the same shape but not exactly. The Artemis cushion nose is very rounded compared to the Super speed. I believe that the cushion applies more spin on the balls upon exiting the cushion. This causes the angle to be short.
 
The Artemis and Super speed cushions are close to the same shape but not exactly. The Artemis cushion nose is very rounded compared to the Super speed. I believe that the cushion applies more spin on the balls upon exiting the cushion. This causes the angle to be short.

Thanks, that hasn't been my experience though. I have Artemis #66 on my GC4 and I do not get the ball hop nor does it bank short like people have mentioned with Diamonds (the red label ones anyway).

But if what you say is true, then why do some mechanics here suggest that GC rails need to be re-calibrated also, even though they apparently don't have these issues? At least I think I've heard that said.
 
Last edited:
Thanks, that hasn't been my experience though. I have Artemis K-66 on my GC4 and I do not get the ball hop nor does it bank short like people have mentioned with Diamonds (the red label ones anyway).

But if what you say is true, then why do some mechanics here suggest that GC rails need to be re-calibrated also, even though they apparently don't have these issues? At least I think I've heard that said.

The proper cushion for the GC4 is a K55 cushion not a K66. The best thing about calibrating the rails is that you would know for sure that all of them are cut exactly the same and have the correct dimensions for the cushions being installed. Also, if you measure your table, you may find that the playing does not come out to exactly 50x100. This can be corrected with calibrating rails as well.

It has been my experience that the older Gold Crown tables will speed up when recalibrating the rails. Now weather this is because of just brand new cushions, or a combination of new cushions and the correct angle cut on the rail I do not know. Recalibrating the rails is not just for slowing down the speed of the rail, and making them bank longer, it is for generally improving the play of the rails.
 
The proper cushion for the GC4 is a K55 cushion not a K66. The best thing about calibrating the rails is that you would know for sure that all of them are cut exactly the same and have the correct dimensions for the cushions being installed. Also, if you measure your table, you may find that the playing does not come out to exactly 50x100. This can be corrected with calibrating rails as well.

It has been my experience that the older Gold Crown tables will speed up when recalibrating the rails. Now weather this is because of just brand new cushions, or a combination of new cushions and the correct angle cut on the rail I do not know. Recalibrating the rails is not just for slowing down the speed of the rail, and making them bank longer, it is for generally improving the play of the rails.

Reverend, my bad. I misspoke. I meant to say I have the #66, not the K-66. I always mess that up and I''ll edit my post. :o But they are definitely the correct ones (Intercontinental).

Anyway, thanks for the other interesting info. :thumbup: But I do have a question. How do older GC's speed up with re-calibration if re-calibration is partly for slowing down the speed of the rails?
 
Last edited:
The proper cushion for the GC4 is a K55 cushion not a K66. The best thing about calibrating the rails is that you would know for sure that all of them are cut exactly the same and have the correct dimensions for the cushions being installed. Also, if you measure your table, you may find that the playing does not come out to exactly 50x100. This can be corrected with calibrating rails as well.

It has been my experience that the older Gold Crown tables will speed up when recalibrating the rails. Now weather this is because of just brand new cushions, or a combination of new cushions and the correct angle cut on the rail I do not know. Recalibrating the rails is not just for slowing down the speed of the rail, and making them bank longer, it is for generally improving the play of the rails.

Does this mean that there will tend to be less frzoen balls on rails if the table rails get faster? I would think so?
 
Reverend, my bad. I misspoke. I meant to say I have the #66, not the K-66. I always mess that up and I''ll edit my post. :o But they are definitely the correct ones (Intercontinental).

Anyway, thanks for the other interesting info. :thumbup: But I do have a question. How do older GC's speed up with re-calibration if re-calibration is partly for slowing down the speed of the rails?

What I was meaning to say is it makes the table play correctly. If for what ever reason the cushions are slow, weather it be from the nose of the cushion too high, or other factors, it will speed up the play, to the "correct" speed. If the point of the cushion is too low, table playing too fast, springy, banking short, it will raise the point of the cushion to the right height, once again making the table play at the "correct" speed.

So recalibrating rails is not just a fix for slowing down the rebound off the cushion, it is for correcting anything that is wrong with the play of the rails. It makes the cushions play to their potential by changing the angle and height at which they are installed.
 
What I was meaning to say is it makes the table play correctly. If for what ever reason the cushions are slow, weather it be from the nose of the cushion too high, or other factors, it will speed up the play, to the "correct" speed. If the point of the cushion is too low, table playing too fast, springy, banking short, it will raise the point of the cushion to the right height, once again making the table play at the "correct" speed.

So recalibrating rails is not just a fix for slowing down the rebound off the cushion, it is for correcting anything that is wrong with the play of the rails. It makes the cushions play to their potential by changing the angle and height at which they are installed.

Thanks, Reverend. I know the cushion height is right on my table. The rails have not been re-calibrated but the tables plays correctly in every way so I guess I'm good to go.

Because I have the Artemis Interconts on my table I wonder if you can confirm what ChevyBob said about these cushions -
The Artemis cushion nose is very rounded compared to the Super speed. I believe that the cushion applies more spin on the balls upon exiting the cushion. This causes the angle to be short.

I guess that is two questions really: 1) Are the noses rounder (not sure what difference this makes if #2 isn't correct) and, #2) Do they apply more spin and bank shorter than the superspeeds?

As I said, this has not been my experience so I'm curious.
 
Thanks, Reverend. I know the cushion height is right on my table. The rails have not been re-calibrated but the tables plays correctly in every way so I guess I'm good to go.

Because I have the Artemis Interconts on my table I wonder if you can confirm what ChevyBob said about these cushions -

I guess that is two questions really: 1) Are the noses rounder (not sure what difference this makes if #2 isn't correct) and, #2) Do they apply more spin and bank shorter than the superspeeds?

As I said, this has not been my experience so I'm curious.

Yes, the rounder nose of the Artemis cushions translates into more ball contact induced friction/spin off the cushions at softer speeds, hard banks compress the cushions to the point that the spin is canceled for the most part.
 
Yes, the rounder nose of the Artemis cushions translates into more ball contact induced friction/spin off the cushions at softer speeds, hard banks compress the cushions to the point that the spin is canceled for the most part.

Yes, speed kills spin. Bank 'em firm.
 
Back
Top