"The Big Ban"

Look, no one has said you cannot use a phenolic tip (except in tournament play). So this rule really only affects a very few players at an even smaller number of times during the year.

But the rule is not new. The equipment specifications say: The cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the addressed ball. The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material that extends the natural line of the shaft end of the cue and contacts the cue ball when the shot is executed.

This places no one at a disadvantage to another player. All are subject to the same rule. Look for an announcement soon that will clarify and explain how this rule will be enforced at all the major international events beginning in 2010.
 
Black-Balled said:
So, you think the kick is the better shot on the 1 for your $ here?

CueTable Help

Click to expand...

I play at a room where jumping is not allowed. I've been playing regularly for about 1 1/2 yrs. So yes I'd kick it and if I fouled I'd hand you the ball. But I seriously doubt I'd foul.
 
Thoughts

There are arguments for both sides, but the fact is that I agree with Mike, and the phenolic tips should NOT be banned without concrete scientific evidence that they damage cue balls.

There should be durometer readings published for each object involved.
Heck, they can take and put a cue ball into a press and measure how much pressure it takes to damage it.

The BCA shot themselves in the foot with this ruling without anything to back it up other than we think so.

As far as equipment, I wasn't thrilled when jump cues came out, but have accepted them. And as previous posters have mentioned getting over a ball is not even half the battle when jumping, making the shot, and getting shape on the next ball still remain to be done. I don't see anyone very proficient with a jump cue unless they are at least a 7 or 8.

Jump cues have demanded that safety play be better than in the past before them. Kicking and knowing your rails is good for your overall game, but kicking is just educated guesses, and I have seen hundreds of shots where it takes much more skill to jump and make the ball, than to kick at it. If you are tired of jump shots being performed on you, then perhaps you need to work on tightening up your safety play.

And yes, I can jump with a full cue with a leather tip. (and I am 5'7" tall) Heck one night, I missed 3 jump shots with my jump cue, got disgusted, and jumped the next 4 with my playing cue, making 3 of the 4, and a good hit on the other one. Jump shots are easier to control with a leather tip.

There will always be innovations to the game, and it will always require a great deal of skill to play it well.
 
Snapshot9 said:
The BCA shot themselves in the foot with this ruling without anything to back it up other than we think so.
Click to expand...

You mean the BCAPL (aka CueSports International). BCAPL no longer has any affiliation with the BCA (other than CSI being a BCA member IIRC). The ruling is something they decided to do for their tournaments after talking with Aramith about the issue.

If the APA banned phenolic tips I don't think there would be the same uproar, mainly because people don't keep confusing APA with the BCA. On the playbca.com website Mark Griffin discusses the issue in a TAR interview, it's even on their front page.


Brian
 
m79a said:
I play at a room where jumping is not allowed. I've been playing regularly for about 1 1/2 yrs. So yes I'd kick it and if I fouled I'd hand you the ball. But I seriously doubt I'd foul.
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But you act like contact is the goal. Making the ball is the goal and some shots are much easier made jumping than kicking, vice versa true too.
 
Black-Balled said:
But you act like contact is the goal. Making the ball is the goal and some shots are much easier made jumping than kicking, vice versa true too.
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Oh, I thought you were allowed play safe sometimes. You just asked which was the better shot. :D
 
supergreenman said:
Is this really such a hard kick shot?

CueTable Help



C'mon really? I'd say you have equal if not better chance of making(yes I said making) this shot instead of the jump shot.
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No way. Given the same skill level between jumper/ kicker, the straight in is always easier than the bank.

You have seriously tested my no red-rep policy with your theory.;)
 
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Snapshot9 said:
I have seen hundreds of shots where it takes much more skill to jump and make the ball, than to kick at it.
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Show me 5. If it's a jump/kick, it can't be used, as that requires a kick at it. Now, show me just a glimpse of the hundreds. Oh, and let's avoid the clever wording. Jump to hit, and kick to hit are the same. Jump to make and kick to make are the same. I can show you probably 10 to 1 the number of shots that can only be executed with a jump cue. Not a jump SHOT, a jump CUE.
 
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m79a said:
Oh, I thought you were allowed play safe sometimes. You just asked which was the better shot. :D
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The best safe is shooting the ball in the hole. Besides, hitting the ball isn't playing safe any more than it is selling out...it is a crapshoot.

The %player would choose the jump.
 
Mike G. has the ban on phenolic tips made an adverse impact on the sales of your jump break cues? The BCA pool league is just one of the amature leagues and the ban from what I can read only applies on a National or State level unless your local league enforces it also. This seems like a small slice of the total pool players out there.
 
macguy said:
You may have invented "A Ferrule", one ferrule, one specific ferrule, but not the concept that was around for years. I don't think the "Ice breaker" infringes on your ferrule nor do many other tips. I know a little about the inventing process. My father invented the first car wash and held 6 patents on tow trucks. One thing you learn is, if you prove the concept others are going to get into the business and in most cases improve on what you have done. That is the nature of inventing and manufacturing. The secret is always having something new around the corner you are working on. My father held a patent on a fishing lure that he sold to the Heddon. My father didn't even fish. What ever you do expect to be knocked off, that is the nature of business. You can't have all your eggs in one basket.
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I have the patent on the"phenolic" ferrule/tip, stated so in my patent and more. The phenolic family covers a lot of different kinds of material. If someone knocks me off it won't be phenolic. I would say my basket is large. I have got to get back to work but I am enjoying this discussion. One thing is for sure, my material does not damage cue balls.
 
Black-Balled said:
No way. Given the same skill level between jumper/ kicker, the straight in is always easier than the bank.

You have seriously tested my no red-rep policy with your theory.;)
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Red rep? oh please :rolleyes:

From a purely mechanical standpoint, a kick shot has less variables. A. pick your aim point and shoot with a smooth stroke.

Variables - kick
- rail speed
- spin
- stroke speed

Variables - Jump shot
- cloth
- cue elevation
- distance of blocking ball
- stroke speed
- spin
- distance from rail (how easy it to reach)
- cajones - the timid jumper never succeeds

Kick shot wins.
 
And anyway- a great kicker won't make that kick 4/10times. A mediocre jumper might make the jump 4/10. Youz wrong on this one...
supergreenman said:
Red rep? oh please :rolleyes:

From a purely mechanical standpoint, a kick shot has less variables. A. pick your aim point and shoot with a smooth stroke.

Variables - kick
- rail speed
- spin
- stroke speed

Variables - Jump shot
- cloth
- cue elevation
- distance of blocking ball
- stroke speed
- spin
- distance from rail (how easy it to reach)
- cajones - the timid jumper never succeeds

Kick shot wins.
Click to expand...

I believe you meant this:
Variables - kick
- rail speed
- spin
- stroke speed
- cloth
- cue elevation
- distance of object ball
- stroke speed
- spin
- distance from rail (how easy it to reach)
- cajones - the timid kicker never succeeds

Variables - Jump shot
- rail speed
- spin
- stroke speed- cloth
- cue elevation
- distance of blocking ball
- stroke speed
- spin
- distance from rail (how easy it to reach)
- cajones - the timid jumper never succeeds
 
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Snapshot9 said:
There are arguments for both sides, but the fact is that I agree with Mike, and the phenolic tips should NOT be banned without concrete scientific evidence that they damage cue balls.

There should be durometer readings published for each object involved.
Heck, they can take and put a cue ball into a press and measure how much pressure it takes to damage it.

The BCA shot themselves in the foot with this ruling without anything to back it up other than we think so.

As far as equipment, I wasn't thrilled when jump cues came out, but have accepted them. And as previous posters have mentioned getting over a ball is not even half the battle when jumping, making the shot, and getting shape on the next ball still remain to be done. I don't see anyone very proficient with a jump cue unless they are at least a 7 or 8.

Jump cues have demanded that safety play be better than in the past before them. Kicking and knowing your rails is good for your overall game, but kicking is just educated guesses, and I have seen hundreds of shots where it takes much more skill to jump and make the ball, than to kick at it. If you are tired of jump shots being performed on you, then perhaps you need to work on tightening up your safety play.

And yes, I can jump with a full cue with a leather tip. (and I am 5'7" tall) Heck one night, I missed 3 jump shots with my jump cue, got disgusted, and jumped the next 4 with my playing cue, making 3 of the 4, and a good hit on the other one. Jump shots are easier to control with a leather tip.

There will always be innovations to the game, and it will always require a great deal of skill to play it well.
Click to expand...


Like Jerry said, "cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material" so no need to do tests....its not leather nor is it fibrous much less pliable. If the game is so much about control why would you want that as a tip anyway? The rules were built into the game for a reason, don't you think the people who thought all this up didn't already know you would get a harder hit with a harder material. They could have put tips other than laminated leather on a cue 100 years ago, they put and use leather for very good reasons.


G.G.
 
Why all the hate on the jump cues? Why would you not like a dedicated stick for jumping but its ok to jump with a playing cue?

In my not so humble opinion as long as the player isn't scooping under the ball to get it airborn more power to them. It is a skilled shot and difficult. If you don't want someone to play the jump leave the cue ball next to the blocking ball.

Is it against golf rules to use a lob wedge?
 
greyghost said:
Like Jerry said, "cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material"
Click to expand...

Actually that is outdated wording....

The rule has since been amended to read:
“THE CUE TIP ON BREAK CUES MUST BE MADE OF LEATHER WITH NO NON-LEATHER MATERIALS ADDED TO THE CONTACTING SURFACE.”

Please forgive the caps, but that's a cut-n-paste directly from the BCAPL website (http://www.playbca.com/Leagues/LeaguePolicies/tabid/108/Default.aspx)

Brian
 
TheNewSharkster said:
Why all the hate on the jump cues? Why would you not like a dedicated stick for jumping but its ok to jump with a playing cue?

In my not so humble opinion as long as the player isn't scooping under the ball to get it airborn more power to them. It is a skilled shot and difficult. If you don't want someone to play the jump leave the cue ball next to the blocking ball.

Is it against golf rules to use a lob wedge?
Click to expand...

Tap Tap Tap
 
supergreenman said:
Red rep? oh please :rolleyes:

From a purely mechanical standpoint, a kick shot has less variables. A. pick your aim point and shoot with a smooth stroke.

Variables - kick
- rail speed
- spin
- stroke speed

Variables - Jump shot
- cloth
- cue elevation
- distance of blocking ball
- stroke speed
- spin
- distance from rail (how easy it to reach)
- cajones - the timid jumper never succeeds

Kick shot wins.
Click to expand...

Don't agree at all. The shot diagrammed comes up all the time, and my opponents will usually make it. Given the choice, I would hope (prefer) my opponent try your suggested kick instead. I like my chances...
 
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