the draw player?

[Patrick Johnson]

play to YOUR strength.. not HIS strength ..

Unless your "strength" is a weakness. If you draw too much (many/most players do) it might be good advice to limit your draw until you break that habit. Breaking habits is usually a good thing in pool.

If we're in the draw habit, we even habitually play shape for draw shots even when easier follow shots are available. It becomes the tail wagging the dog.

"If your only tool is a hammer, all problems look like nails." (...or something like that.)

pj
chgo

 

[Tokyo-dave]

In this debate, I think it's very important to remind ourselves that a 'draw' shot or cueing low on the CB doesn't always mean making the CB go backwards.

dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

In this debate, I think it's very important to remind ourselves that a 'draw' shot or cueing low on the CB doesn't always mean making the CB go backwards.

dave

Cueing low on the CB (hitting it "with draw") might not result in "getting draw", but "drawing the CB" does mean making it go backwards. That's why it's called "draw" (as in "draw it toward you"). It's a little confusing.

pj
chgo

 

[midstroke]

A few years ago a better player than myself told me i was drawing to much also. So i started practicing follow shots and my game got much better.

 

[ridinda9]

you cant play good if you don't draw,
over 50% of all shot uses some type draw

No , but I can play WELL if I don't draw . I would question where you get this 50% statistic .
Many players use 'draw' (bottom english) to stop the cueball on straight-in shots , not realizing that a properly hit shot with center english will stop in exactly the same place , and require much less force to execute the shot.
The proper , and most accurate way to execute most shots is centerball. Even top pro's have seen improvement in their game by reducing the amount of english played , and returning to more centerball shots.
Novice players forget that there are 3 lines into every pocket (centerpocket, cheat right , and cheat left) and a rail to play off of on both sides of the pocket , and that knowledge can give them many more options than draw .
Remember , to backspin is altering the physics of the shot - follow is utilising the natural tendency of the ball to move forward .

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Bob Jewett(I think) had some simple drills for draw and follow. Try those and see which is easier to control the final position of the cue ball. ...

Five levels of standard drills for follow, stop, draw and cut are in a handout here.

One thing about drawing the cue ball three feet as opposed to following it three feet is that the draw shot will have to be hit a lot harder especially if the cue ball is back three feet on used, dirty cloth.

As for "how the balls lie" determining the shot, that's only partly valid. Often the player can chose among different patterns that require different draw/stun/follow strokes. Part of the "best" pattern is determined by the player's skill set but it's also influenced by conditions.

I used to play all the time in a rec room that had worn-down cue balls. Draw was easy because the light cue ball bounced back off the heavier object balls. All my runs were planned with mostly draw shots -- not consciously, it's just what I had learned worked. Then I went into town to try my luck against the local sharks. The cue balls looked huge, and maybe polished with #120 sand paper. I was unable to play position because the ball did not draw.

If you want to be convinced of the utility of follow and the futility of draw, play on a bar table that has the big cue ball. Or get your own new cue ball, which will likely not draw as well as the cue balls at the PH.

 

[brechbt]

This is one of the more interesting threads I've seen here in a while, and valuable to me. I also tend to favor draw and probably unconsciously set up my patterns to use my preference. I don't think that this is necessarily a good thing, because even though I like hitting the cue ball that way, I don't get the kind of consistency that I'd like. This discussion is going to make me try to take a more neutral approach to the way I'm trying to move the cue ball. Thanks to all of you for very useful perspectives on this.

 

[Philthepockets]

Fred is on to something here. The American style of 9-Ball for decades has focused on using draw or stun shots to play much of the game. The filipino style (probably from years of rotation) is to use follow for the most part. For an American player to convert successfully to the filipino style of play can take years. The filipinos are the masters when it comes to following the cue ball. Parica was the best I ever saw, then Efren and now Dennis Orcullo.

No one can draw the ball better than a top American player, like Larry Nevel or Shane. We grew up on these shots. I know that I can only play the game that way. I learned from watching Lassiter, Don Watson and George Rood, all who mastered the draw/stun shot. It wasn't till I was in my 40's that I learned that following the ball was a more accurate way to play the game. Too late for me.

Our best players (Shane, John and Rodney) have also taught themselves to shoot successful follow shots, but they still rely more on draw shots than most of their Asian opponents.

An interesting side note (to me anyway), the American players who excelled at Straight Pool, all followed the cue ball well. Mosconi and Caras were the masters, and Mizerak and Sigel were comfortable going forward as well. No wonder they played such good 9-Ball. Buddy and Earl were two other American players who mastered both type of shots. In fact Earl's patterns at 9-Ball were very similar to how Parica played the game. Earl is the only American player I've ever seen who could follow the ball as well as a filipino champion.

My point remains that most American players (even today) when faced with a choice, will shoot a draw shot for position, and not try to follow the cue ball. Watch Shane (Johnny, Rodney and Hatch too) sometimes and see what they do. They still favor the big draw shot over the long follow. They grew up learning to draw the ball, so it's the shot they are comfortable with. My personal observation is that among the top American players, Shane follows the cue ball the best. He is still young and I suspect learned a lot from playing so much pool with the filipinos at an early age.

What's interesting about this is that back in the 70' when there were quite a few American players that came up this way and played on the bar box with the bowling ball I was always impressed at how well they played the follow shots. I always though it was because it was more a part of their game and the locals had more of a stun draw game because they were all ex snooker players. It was always a hoot watching try them try to draw that big fat cue ball.

 

[CueJunkiee]

so was it Massey that said
"draw for show follow for dough??"

i use that saying all the time teaching lower level players.... they 'love' showing off their aquired skill but can never control the distance worth a crap .... so i teach them to follow the ball and use angles, or a stop shot, more than draw....
yes draw is an important tool in the game but it gets overused alot IMHO by lower level players...

i played an SL6 the other night, and every position was a draw shot for him... i would say 90% of every shot he went for position with draw... after the first game i knew i would have no problem beating him..... which i did...
great thread by the way.... green for you

 

[TATE]

Fred is on to something here. The American style of 9-Ball for decades has focused on using draw or stun shots to play much of the game. The filipino style (probably from years of rotation) is to use follow for the most part. For an American player to convert successfully to the filipino style of play can take years. The filipinos are the masters when it comes to following the cue ball. Parica was the best I ever saw, then Efren and now Dennis Orcullo.

No one can draw the ball better than a top American player, like Larry Nevel or Shane. We grew up on these shots. I know that I can only play the game that way. I learned from watching Lassiter, Don Watson and George Rood, all who mastered the draw/stun shot. It wasn't till I was in my 40's that I learned that following the ball was a more accurate way to play the game. Too late for me.

Our best players (Shane, John and Rodney) have also taught themselves to shoot successful follow shots, but they still rely more on draw shots than most of their Asian opponents.

An interesting side note (to me anyway), the American players who excelled at Straight Pool, all followed the cue ball well. Mosconi and Caras were the masters, and Mizerak and Sigel were comfortable going forward as well. No wonder they played such good 9-Ball. Buddy and Earl were two other American players who mastered both type of shots. In fact Earl's patterns at 9-Ball were very similar to how Parica played the game. Earl is the only American player I've ever seen who could follow the ball as well as a filipino champion.

My point remains that most American players (even today) when faced with a choice, will shoot a draw shot for position, and not try to follow the cue ball. Watch Shane (Johnny, Rodney and Hatch too) sometimes and see what they do. They still favor the big draw shot over the long follow. They grew up learning to draw the ball, so it's the shot they are comfortable with. My personal observation is that among the top American players, Shane follows the cue ball the best. He is still young and I suspect learned a lot from playing so much pool with the filipinos at an early age.

When I think of an American who was a follow player, the one who sticks out in my mind was Hawaiian Brian. I played him a few times way back in the 1970's and learned just how much I needed to learn! He followed the ball and used inside like the Filipino champions do now. Maybe they learned from Brian after getting robbed a few times!

I'm starting to see a new breed of Filipino player like Orcullo and Lee Van Corteza who are precision shape players and play what I consider more conventional shape and natural position closer to center ball without exagerrated angles.

I really enjoy watching the Taiwanese players who play excellent patterns and natural angles. At his peak, I could watch the precision game of Fong Pang Chau all day and marvel at his position play, now I see that same precision in his protege, Yang, and other Chinese players.

Chris

 

[TATE]

I belive that controlled draw is essential to anyones game.

A mentor, to an extent, recently told me that I use draw way too much. He said to try to limit myself to 1-2 times a rack that I could apply draw. Follow is much easier to control, by far. I heard one of the players that was near us say he was a draw player. So my question is, how many of the pool players here use draw frequently. Do you perfer follow over draw?

Draw for show, follow for dough?

One thing I would suggest is to watch video matches of pro players - there are plenty on youtube - and watch what they are using from shot to shot. You can easily see for yourself what the players are using to get around the table.

Chris

 

[Bob Jewett]

One thing I would suggest is to watch video matches of pro players - there are plenty on youtube - and watch what they are using from shot to shot. You can easily see for yourself what the players are using to get around the table.

Chris

I think that exercise is worthwhile, but you need to remember that they are playing on new cloth where draw is very easy.

 

[Foolio]

Thank you for all your replies. To answer some questions, this person told me to work with center ball and speed control. Also, I'm using draw in the context of actually retaining backspin coming off the object ball, not talking about stop shots.

Johnny- it was not the "two time US open champ," he does tell me that I need more 'corazon.' Although it was Darin who said he was a draw player.

 

[tom mcgonagle]

The fasination of the game is sending the cue-ball in a forward motion and watching it come backwards, after it strikes the object-ball.

In life we learn to do everything we do in a forward motion, walking and driving a car are the best examples. We do tis because it's easier. That's the same reason I follow the cue-ball, a lot. IT"S EASIER!

 

[BRKNRUN]

I belive that controlled draw is essential to anyones game.

I am not so sure about "controlled" draw being essential....I think many players (even top pros) get by with "zone" draw.....Draw is alot like in Golf hitting a wedge into a green (past the pin) with backspin...it is tough to judge just how much its going to bite and back up.

What IS essential to anyones game is the stop shot from any distance.......The stop shot is the foundation of shape IMO.....even when the the ball is coming off at angles.......although when the ball is coming off at an angle it becomes a "stun" shot which from my view is really no different than a stop shot.

Master the stop shot and you will make huge progress in mastering position play.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I play whatever the shot calls for so I'm not sure that I "draw" the ball more than play follow but I probably do play more shots below center ball than above it. This is simply because more shots call for a hit below center. For example, depending on how long the shot is and how hard I'm going to hit it, playing a stop shot often calls for making contact below CB center. Same goes for playing low follow shots. There are not as many uses for hitting above center except to play follow or occasionally to kill the cue ball off a rail.

 

[jlynn73]

The game is about position.

Play within your abilities.

Someone gives you crap about your shot, they better have a suggestion.

my .02

 

[Baxter]

Like Chris said, its all about the right angles and speed. With that, you seldom need to juice the cueball with much spin of any kind.
Heres one to think about though, would you play a rail shot with a bit of outside draw to come 1 rail back to the middle of the table, or high inside and come 2 rails for a similar position?
The least you can do to the cueball and get on the correct side of the next ball the better.
Chuck

Outside over inside all day long. Inside english is treacherous.

 

[elvicash]

Watch the pros as see how often they juice the cue ball with a lot of draw.

I think you will find it is not very frequently.

Bob Jewett(I think) had some simple drills for draw and follow. Try those and see which is easier to control the final position of the cue ball.

If you opponent leaves you where a draw is the only choice that is one thing. If you are leaving many of them for yourself, work on your cue ball control.

I agree with this. A good payer plays into more natural positions and less into positons when you have have to move/work the cue ball. The right side of the line at a good angle for positon on the next shot. If a player is constanly drawing then they are making it tougher on themselves (this over a series of racks)

 

[crow]

I belive that controlled draw is essential to anyones game.

A mentor, to an extent, recently told me that I use draw way too much. He said to try to limit myself to 1-2 times a rack that I could apply draw. Follow is much easier to control, by far. I heard one of the players that was near us say he was a draw player. So my question is, how many of the pool players here use draw frequently. Do you perfer follow over draw?

Draw for show, follow for dough?

I probably follow the ball more than most players that I played with when I was growing up. My favorite player was Gary Spaeth and he had so much cueball control compared to most players (maybe as much as anyone tbh). So I tried to emulate my game to his and I think it helped my control alot. George Rude was another player I grew up around and he once commented on my ability to follow the ball well comprared to most players of the same age and background. I think the players that follow the ball more are going to be better in outs under alot of pressure as the control is much easier.