the draw player?

Foolio

Foolio

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I belive that controlled draw is essential to anyones game.

A mentor, to an extent, recently told me that I use draw way too much. He said to try to limit myself to 1-2 times a rack that I could apply draw. Follow is much easier to control, by far. I heard one of the players that was near us say he was a draw player. So my question is, how many of the pool players here use draw frequently. Do you perfer follow over draw?

Draw for show, follow for dough?
 
limit yourself?? BS............ you shoot with what the shot needs

how often you need to draw vs follow is determined by the lay of the balls

forcing yourself to take the wrong shot just to meet a quota is silly

master follow and master draw ....in practice

in game shoot it how you need to shoot it....

that's all there is...
 
So I should have added that he told me that I could get the same position using follow.

How many players believe this?
 
Foolio said:
So I should have added that he told me that I could get the same position using follow.

How many players believe this?
Click to expand...

when you can get shape more than one way... it's shooters choice.. and you are the shooter... play to YOUR strength.. not HIS strength ..
 
Foolio said:
Draw for show, follow for dough?
Click to expand...

Neither actually. I understand the concept, but I don't like to hear him say to only use it once or twice a game. If you don't use it, you won't master it.

Regular draw (and the abuse of it) is the least reliable position play. Harder to judge, easy to miscue. Follow players tend to play better, more natural angles. But if you're really playing good angles, you only have to use a little touch of anything most of the time. Much of the time it really can't be described as draw or follow, just subtle manipulations of the spin and speed.

Playing good angles you can also back the cue ball up off a rail with stun and english instead of using regular draw. I would say focus more on good angles and less on whether you're drawing or following and you will naturally arrive where you want to be.


Chris
 
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Overuse of draw is one of the biggest tells of a n00b who just learned to draw the ball. Follow is much more predictable and repeatable, imo...

That said, if you can't draw the ball with control, expect to lose a lot. As an earlier poster said, you shoot the way the shot wants to be struck. Take what the table gives you, don't try to force it if it's not there, etc.
 
Like Chris said, its all about the right angles and speed. With that, you seldom need to juice the cueball with much spin of any kind.
Heres one to think about though, would you play a rail shot with a bit of outside draw to come 1 rail back to the middle of the table, or high inside and come 2 rails for a similar position?
The least you can do to the cueball and get on the correct side of the next ball the better.
Chuck
 
I'm with everyone else here, you gotta shoot what the shot requires. That being said, if I had to classify myself, I prefer playing top to playing draw. I find it a lot easier to let the cue ball continue on in the direction that it is already moving than to try to have it stop and reverse direction, which is what a draw shot is, and I find there seems to be a larger margin for error in hitting the correct speed if I am shooting a shot with follow.

As TATE said, playing natural angles does makes the game easier. Not that I'm good enough to do that, but I understand the concept. It's just easier for me to play the center or top of the cue ball than the bottom. You're line of sight is never going to be from below the cue ball, it will always be from above, so placing the tip on the center or top is easier for me to see. That allows me to hit the cue ball correctly, so that it follows the natural angle, and gives more controlled position. Of course, certain shots you will find yourself left will require draw, and it is an important part of the game. But I also find myself hitting off-center (left or right) more often when I'm hitting draw than I do with top or center on the vertical axis. Granted, that's because my stroke that isn't laser straight, but that wobble seems to be maginfied the farther below center I try to hit.

My advice if you think you really are playing too much draw is to examine every shot that you are thinking about playing draw on, see what position you want to leave yourself with, and then see if there is a way to get that position without using draw. You might be surprised to see how often there is another way to get where you want to be. We've played enough that I can say you know how the cue ball will react off of the object ball, so taking the time to think through your options isn't going to hurt you at all. Keep the game as simple as possible and enjoy yourself. Take all of the advice that you get with a grain of salt, especially if it's from a certain alleged "two time US Open champ", but use what works for you.

Johnny
 
I can control speed and where I need the cue ball to stop much easier coming off a cushion VS drawing the ball. The farther you are from the object ball, the harder it is to draw the cue ball with any accuracy (for example a table lenght shot where the cue is at one end, and object ball at the other). Experiment with each. Set up a relatively easy shot, decide where you want the cue ball, and shoot several with draw, then several coming off the cushion. See which seems to be easier and more acurate with regard to cue ball position.
Personally I prefer to play shape where I am coming off a cushion VS having to draw the ball. Just my preference (and I can draw the ball really well).
 
I kind of see how this works. Frankly, I prefer center or close to it. That said, there is often the almost straight draw or follow shot which can be a game decider at times. If I can bridge solid and am not all jacked up, I prefer draw. If draw whacks things out, I will follow. I hate to juice the he'll out of the cue ball only to hear it thud and roll back 2-3 diamonds giving me a long ass cut shot....often on the 8 or 9! I mean, I juiced it to go to the end rail, bounce to the near and back out a diamond! WTF!
 
It also depends on the equipment. Coin op with the big cue ball lends itself to a follow game almost allways. Guys who learned on such equipment are masters of inside English and can be very dangerous players.

Flat draw is IMO much more difficult to control in terms of speed. It is easy to come up short or fly by your position. I draw on almost every shot. My position play tends to build some angle into the shot and I use the rails to help with speed control. But I get crushed by smarter players with simpler patterns.
 
Watch the pros as see how often they juice the cue ball with a lot of draw.

I think you will find it is not very frequently.

Bob Jewett(I think) had some simple drills for draw and follow. Try those and see which is easier to control the final position of the cue ball.

If you opponent leaves you where a draw is the only choice that is one thing. If you are leaving many of them for yourself, work on your cue ball control.
 
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It takes a few minutes to learn a draw shot and decades to master it. It all goes back to table management, do you need to, how much to use and when. I was taught you spin or draw your ball to get outta trouble, not to get into some. Good luck...
 
Foolio said:
I belive that controlled draw is essential to anyones game.

A mentor, to an extent, recently told me that I use draw way too much. He said to try to limit myself to 1-2 times a rack that I could apply draw. Follow is much easier to control, by far. I heard one of the players that was near us say he was a draw player. So my question is, how many of the pool players here use draw frequently. Do you perfer follow over draw?

Draw for show, follow for dough?
Click to expand...
I wonder if he (or the posters who have answered you for that matter) are differentiating "reversing the cueball" vs "hitting the cueball low."

If you're playing 9-ball for example, the absolutel bread and butter shot of the game is the "stun with outside through the center of the table." Even if you're close to the object ball, "stun" requires you to hit lower than the equator. That's just physics and it's good proper pool.

So, to your mentor and even to the follow up posters, that's my question. And I"m not looking for an answer. I think your mentor should really look at his game. Sometimes what people say are nice and fluffy, but aren't reality.

Top players use a lot of draw. Even with pros, the guys who follow well stand out as being able to follow well. It's not as easy as many posters make it sound. You're reading me right. Sometimes or even most times, following the ball for position is harder than drawing the ball. But, it's easier to follow the ball if you can't draw the ball well. That might sound like a contradiction, but it's not.

Fred <~~~ maybe nobody should give advice anymore
 
Foolio said:
I belive that controlled draw is essential to anyones game.

A mentor, to an extent, recently told me that I use draw way too much. He said to try to limit myself to 1-2 times a rack that I could apply draw. Follow is much easier to control, by far. I heard one of the players that was near us say he was a draw player. So my question is, how many of the pool players here use draw frequently. Do you perfer follow over draw?

Draw for show, follow for dough?
Click to expand...

play what your comfortable with till you learn both.
 
Cornerman said:
I wonder if he (or the posters who have answered you for that matter) are differentiating "reversing the cueball" vs "hitting the cueball low."

If you're playing 9-ball for example, the absolutel bread and butter shot of the game is the "stun with outside through the center of the table." Even if you're close to the object ball, "stun" requires you to hit lower than the equator. That's just physics and it's good proper pool.

So, to your mentor and even to the follow up posters, that's my question. And I"m not looking for an answer. I think your mentor should really look at his game. Sometimes what people say are nice and fluffy, but aren't reality.

Top players use a lot of draw. Even with pros, the guys who follow well stand out as being able to follow well. It's not as easy as many posters make it sound. You're reading me right. Sometimes or even most times, following the ball for position is harder than drawing the ball. But, it's easier to follow the ball if you can't draw the ball well. That might sound like a contradiction, but it's not.

Fred <~~~ maybe nobody should give advice anymore
Click to expand...

Fred is on to something here. The American style of 9-Ball for decades has focused on using draw or stun shots to play much of the game. The filipino style (probably from years of rotation) is to use follow for the most part. For an American player to convert successfully to the filipino style of play can take years. The filipinos are the masters when it comes to following the cue ball. Parica was the best I ever saw, then Efren and now Dennis Orcullo.

No one can draw the ball better than a top American player, like Larry Nevel or Shane. We grew up on these shots. I know that I can only play the game that way. I learned from watching Lassiter, Don Watson and George Rood, all who mastered the draw/stun shot. It wasn't till I was in my 40's that I learned that following the ball was a more accurate way to play the game. Too late for me.

Our best players (Shane, John and Rodney) have also taught themselves to shoot successful follow shots, but they still rely more on draw shots than most of their Asian opponents.

An interesting side note (to me anyway), the American players who excelled at Straight Pool, all followed the cue ball well. Mosconi and Caras were the masters, and Mizerak and Sigel were comfortable going forward as well. No wonder they played such good 9-Ball. Buddy and Earl were two other American players who mastered both type of shots. In fact Earl's patterns at 9-Ball were very similar to how Parica played the game. Earl is the only American player I've ever seen who could follow the ball as well as a filipino champion.

My point remains that most American players (even today) when faced with a choice, will shoot a draw shot for position, and not try to follow the cue ball. Watch Shane (Johnny, Rodney and Hatch too) sometimes and see what they do. They still favor the big draw shot over the long follow. They grew up learning to draw the ball, so it's the shot they are comfortable with. My personal observation is that among the top American players, Shane follows the cue ball the best. He is still young and I suspect learned a lot from playing so much pool with the filipinos at an early age.
 
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Foolio said:
So I should have added that he told me that I could get the same position using follow.

How many players believe this?
Click to expand...

if that's possible then it comes down to what you're comfortable shooting. if you're not comfortable shooting it with follow then don't.

that's at the time though. later on when you're just practicing you ought to practice shooting the follow shots just incase you need to shoot the shot different someday
 
I agree with Jay. I have played with a lot of phillipino's (sp?), mostly rotation, and have observed when they play nine ball it is mostly follow if not all. We all learned the draw shot, but most don't know how to control it. I think they are better players in the long run.................
 
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