the grip

[ShootingArts]

I think this is the heart of many of my issues

For me I am a firm believer of letting the cue do the work on most shots. I have a bad habit of spinning the cue ball, at least I have been told its a bad habit. I can not get the spin on the rock I need by gripping the cue tightly. I think players tight grips can be vastly different though. After finishing concrete for most of my adult life my forearm and hand muscles are used to gripping trowels and other handles that are near cue size. There for when I grip a cue a little on the tight side it will totally ruin my stroke not to mention the cue.

I think something similar is at the heart of many of my issues. When I was learning to shoot pool the first time around I was the hands on owner of mechanic and body shops. When the dollars were right I climbed iron doing industrial insulation and sheet metal work too, sometimes climbing over 300 feet four times a day. All these things build a lot of hook and muscle into your arms and hands. I still use my hands a good bit and despite being retired for over a decade my arms still hook a good bit and my hands curl inside my wrist. I have to force cue, wrist, and elbow into vertical alignment or the wrist hangs an inch or more outside the cue.

I think a major error has been trying to conform to a standard instead of working with my body type.There is a lot of difference in the basic muscle structure of someone that works primarily with their hands and someone that works primarily with their head. For awhile I'm going with whatever feels good hoping that my body knows more than my head does.

Hu

 

[Secaucus Fats]

Can you list those few shots where the heavier/tighter grip is "a Key component"? I am curious as to what those few shots are.

Thanks,

Sure, any shot which necessitates a punch or pinch stroke in order to prevent a foul..i.e. nip draws, nip follows, and nip stuns. And let me clarify that I am not saying that the cue needs to be held in a death grip, just a firmer grip than the loose cradle grip.

 

[AtLarge]

When I am in stroke, I actually let the cue go and almost throw it through the ball. I didn't even know I did it until someone pointed it out to me.

Am I wierd?

Well, you may or may not be weird, but the stroking action you describe is not evidence of weirdness. You may enjoy reading the following thread about throwing the cue:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=109237​

 

[BRKNRUN]

I am curious to break this down a bit further.

Where is the pressure from the grip applied from? What is the "thumb's" role in the grip

(For me) I know I want the thumb pointing in the general direction of the ground. however...the more pressure the thumb has during the stroke...them more crappy stuff seems to happen.

The lighter I keep the thumb and the more I keep the weight of the cue in only the fingers of my grip hand....the better the stroke (and CB object ball contact seems to be)

It seems to me that the too tight grip is usually associtated with the thumb being too tight (or grabbing on the cue) during the stroke.

I am curious what others think of "the thumb"

 

[Maniac]

I am curious what others think of "the thumb"

It's useless for pickin' yer nose .

Seriously, I try to use as little thumb pressure as I can get away with when stroking the cue. Like anything else in pool, this probably varies somewhat from person to person. But, IMO, you gotta have a little pressure somewhere on the side of the cue. Still, at least with me (and I'm sure this applies to most people), at contact my thumb tightens down a bit more than with the practice stroke. I don't think this can be prevented unless you do it consciously, and I feel that to be in dead stroke, you should be in an unconscious state of awareness.

Maniac

 

[Nature Boy]

Well, you may or may not be weird, but the stroking action you describe is not evidence of weirdness. You may enjoy reading the following thread about throwing the cue:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=109237​

Thanks! Except for calling me weird.

 

[Rod]

I think the grip just needs to be relaxed. Light grip pressure is the common element in relaxed grips. I think the key factor is keeping grip pressure on the forward stroke the same (or very near) as it was at address. Some players may benefit from just a tad heaver grip at address but not enough to cause tension. If it gives a better feeling of control it can help with tightening up to much on the forward stroke. On thing for sure getting tight on the forward stroke or just before impact is a recipe for disaster.

I forgot to add, Hu I don't think a loose grip causes accuracy problems, but if its to loose for you it may be a problem.

Rod

 

[greyghost]

The deal with the light grip is that its letting the cue do the work. You can accelerate your arm like the cue can accelerate itself, just like a pitcher throwing a ball. When a pitcher muscles it in he can't throw strikes, when he windmill whips it the ball does the work.

If you watch Jeremy Jones his wrist is curled in quite a bit, as he doesn't use his thumb at all. Matlock uses more of the snooker V style grip as his index and thumb don't touch much either but his hand isn't crooked in like Jeremys either.

The thumb no matter how its used should just be there to keep the cue from falling out the cradle. If the thumb is not pointed down then the only grip that keeps its mechanical soundness is that V grip that Dave uses, as it keeps the wrist straight. Tho Jeremy has a pretty stroke, I'm not down for the crooked wrist.

Grey Ghost

 

[Big C]

I didn't read all of the replies, so sorry if anyone mentioned this tip I am about to lay down. Have you ever played darts? A good dart thrower uses very light grip pressure and a pendulum stroke, albeit upside down. Try gripping your cue with the same grip pressure as you would throwing a dart. Practice in front of a mirror to check that your forearm is perpendicular to the cue in the set position as Hu mentioned earlier.

Hope this helps,

Chris

 

[AtLarge]

... I think the key factor is keeping grip pressure on the forward stroke the same (or very near) as it was at address. ... On thing for sure getting tight on the forward stroke or just before impact is a recipe for disaster.

Rod, how do you reconcile your view (which I have pretty much shared) with what Steve Davis teaches in the video cited in post #4 of this thread? Steve advocates quite a light grip during the warm-up strokes, but as he actually strokes into the cue ball, "the whole hand squeezes around the cue, and that gives a lot of feeling on the shot."

Is this squeezing of the cue as the ball is struck common among snooker players? If so, it would seem to disprove the notions that for accuracy and power (1) the grip pressure should be light throughout the stroke or (2) the grip pressure should be consistent or unchanged throughout the stroke.

 

[mosconiac]

I was taught to NOT grip the cue but to cradle it across all the fingers with the thumb just touching the index finder and pointing down.

This seems to help me play my best. I've tried other stuff, but this is the best for me. I **visualize** the face of my pinky finger remaining parallel to the floor.

EDIT: "face" = portion between knuckle & first joint. Also, this grip position forces my wrist to hang straight (forearm & top of hand in a straight line). Something like this (although I am NOT trying to compare myself to him):

 

[Rod]

Rod, how do you reconcile your view (which I have pretty much shared) with what Steve Davis teaches in the video cited in post #4 of this thread? Steve advocates quite a light grip during the warm-up strokes, but as he actually strokes into the cue ball, "the whole hand squeezes around the cue, and that gives a lot of feeling on the shot."

Is this squeezing of the cue as the ball is struck common among snooker players? If so, it would seem to disprove the notions that for accuracy and power (1) the grip pressure should be light throughout the stroke or (2) the grip pressure should be consistent or unchanged throughout the stroke.

I had never watched that video before this thread. I think as with anything is how one digests this and puts it to practical use. One player may think its firm grip while another thinks its just a slight increase.

I think he is saying a slight increase over practice strokes but the player maintains that slight increase on the real stroke. I think that is fine as long as its not increased even more on the forward stroke or just before impact. I mentioned it may help some players to start with a slight increase to give them a better sense of control. I never said use loose for warm up, then a bit heavier for the real stroke. But there is no problem if the player understands it is only a slight increase and does not cause tension. How one interprets slight is another factor.

Personally my grip is looser on warm up as Steve suggests and I do have a slight increase on the real stroke. I never said that in my O/P. Where the real problem lies is players that start loose then change grip pressure mid-stroke. It causes steering (the most common)(changes cue speed) and difficult at best to be precise.

Rod

 

[CreeDo]

I like talking shop about pool as much as anyone but I'm surprised people can say so much about this. I think at some point I was told to not choke the thing to death, years ago. Every day after that I've gripped it however much feels natural. Probably the tightness changes from shot to shot.

Why force your hand to grip more or less than what feels perfectly comfortably natural? Can anyone show a situation where what feels normal is actually wrong? Is it possible to force yourself to grip more or less over a long stretch of time until the forced change feels completely natural?

 

[AtLarge]

... Where the real problem lies is players that start loose then change grip pressure mid-stroke. It causes steering (the most common)(changes cue speed) and difficult at best to be precise.

That's how I've felt also. But the video of Steve gives me pause. It certainly sounds to me, and looks to me, like he is decidedly increasing the grip pressure during the stroke at the cue ball.

Do we have any snooker experts reading this? Do many snooker players go from a light cradle (Steve shows that the cue will slip through his grip at this pressure level) to a full-hand squeeze during the stroke?

 

[softshot]

the cue has a taper...

it gets wider towards the bottom

that taper is all you need to keep the cue from flying out of your hands on a BREAK shot..

if you are looser than that you are sloppy.. if your cue doesn't move on your break shot... you have lots of problems.. starting with your elbow LOL:thumbup:

you don't need anything "SLOPPY" in your pool game

I try to do everything in pool...*just as (firm tight hard) as I need to to make the balls go where they need to go..

any (firmer, tighter, harder,) than that adds unnecessary control problems

I can break with my standard grip and not lose control of the stick...

I can also nip follow half a diamond with the same grip....

I can nip draw .. while frozen to a rail... with that same grip..

I can do everything you need to do with a cue,, at any speed a reasonable player would ever use..


all with the same grip..

someone please tell me why I should change?

 

[ShootingArts]

a question I can answer

I like talking shop about pool as much as anyone but I'm surprised people can say so much about this. I think at some point I was told to not choke the thing to death, years ago. Every day after that I've gripped it however much feels natural. Probably the tightness changes from shot to shot.

Why force your hand to grip more or less than what feels perfectly comfortably natural? Can anyone show a situation where what feels normal is actually wrong? Is it possible to force yourself to grip more or less over a long stretch of time until the forced change feels completely natural?

Since I started the thread I can tell you why the grip is of interest. I can stroke perfectly down a line without effort. I can use a bottle or I can use Joe Tucker's stroke trainer around a piece of PVC that it fits far tighter than a cue ball and it never twitch.

My stroke is a pretty and straight as anyone can hope for if I test it by pretty much any means. However, over four hours or more of practice or play I sometimes have trouble with starting to steer my stroke. It does seem grip related. Following advice I lightened my grip. It worked to a degree but then I noticed that while I no longer had issues with steering my cue, overall accuracy had suffered. Not a lot, but I could tell my shot percentage was down on tough shots.

Going to a genuine slip-stroke, slipping the hand back on the cue on the back stroke and tightening it as I transitioned to the forward stroke gave me back the potting accuracy but a slip-stroke takes a lot of time and effort to gain pin point speed control with. Time I don't have these days.

Aside from any other reasons to talk about the grip, I think it is a very important part of the building blocks to playing good pool, as important as the bridge, and is often overlooked. The bridge, the stance, the stroke, and the grip all have to work together to play good pool even if we know exactly what we want to do. Any one of these areas fail us and the rest don't mean a thing. I was also curious if the very soft grip has only came in vogue with the "pure" pendulum stroke with a fixed elbow. Either a very loose grip is required or the "simple" pendulum becomes a very sophisticated movement of the wrist and/or fingers.

While the elbow drop thread and this one to a lesser extent have brought out the usual posts that add no useful information I have found that there was also a lot of good information and food for thought in the threads. The "nonsense" thread had more good information in it than almost any thread in a similar vein. Anytime we get pages of information on the forum on any pool related subject there is usually some worthwhile information in amongst whatever chaff might be there.

Hu

 

[cuetechasaurus]

I've found that whatever grip best suits you comes along naturally when you get a straight stroke. When I am playing bad, my grip doesn't feel right, even though I'm using the same grip I've always been using. It doesn't feel right because there is some sideways movement in my stroke, which makes me twist. When your stroke is going straight, any general grip will feel great.

 

[cuetechasaurus]

Since I started the thread I can tell you why the grip is of interest. I can stroke perfectly down a line without effort. I can use a bottle or I can use Joe Tucker's stroke trainer around a piece of PVC that it fits far tighter than a cue ball and it never twitch.

My stroke is a pretty and straight as anyone can hope for if I test it by pretty much any means. However, over four hours or more of practice or play I sometimes have trouble with starting to steer my stroke. It does seem grip related. Following advice I lightened my grip. It worked to a degree but then I noticed that while I no longer had issues with steering my cue, overall accuracy had suffered. Not a lot, but I could tell my shot percentage was down on tough shots.

Going to a genuine slip-stroke, slipping the hand back on the cue on the back stroke and tightening it as I transitioned to the forward stroke gave me back the potting accuracy but a slip-stroke takes a lot of time and effort to gain pin point speed control with. Time I don't have these days.

Aside from any other reasons to talk about the grip, I think it is a very important part of the building blocks to playing good pool, as important as the bridge, and is often overlooked. The bridge, the stance, the stroke, and the grip all have to work together to play good pool even if we know exactly what we want to do. Any one of these areas fail us and the rest don't mean a thing. I was also curious if the very soft grip has only came in vogue with the "pure" pendulum stroke with a fixed elbow. Either a very loose grip is required or the "simple" pendulum becomes a very sophisticated movement of the wrist and/or fingers.

While the elbow drop thread and this one to a lesser extent have brought out the usual posts that add no useful information I have found that there was also a lot of good information and food for thought in the threads. The "nonsense" thread had more good information in it than almost any thread in a similar vein. Anytime we get pages of information on the forum on any pool related subject there is usually some worthwhile information in amongst whatever chaff might be there.

Hu

If your stroke is truly straight and you are having potting issues, it sounds like you have a problem with alignment. This is especially true if you start steering your cue. It looks like you are lined up correctly, but subconsciously you know you aren't, and you swerve your cue on the last stroke to compensate for faulty alignment.

Another thing is you might not be lining up your bridge hand correctly with your back arm's stroking path.

 

[almostgood]

If your stroke is truly straight and you are having potting issues, it sounds like you have a problem with alignment. This is especially true if you start steering your cue. It looks like you are lined up correctly, but subconsciously you know you aren't, and you swerve your cue on the last stroke to compensate for faulty alignment.

Another thing is you might not be lining up your bridge hand correctly with your back arm's stroking path.

or it could be your stance. bend your knees alittle then bend over from your back. creates better balance. something i figured out through martial arts. set yourself at what is called " the wrong stance", strait legs and stiff back. and have a friend push you from your hip. you should almost fall. bend your knees then bend from your back and have your friend push you, and you will see you are alot more balanced. witch means you see more strait and your back arm dont move side to side. will be perfect with practice, try the stance thing with the bottle drill. you will see a complete difference.
plz give feedback if anyone feels i am incorrect.

 

[Tommy-D]

> To me,grip tension is directly related to whether or not your stroke is a loose "throwing" motion (Busta) or with a more deliberate hand action and "driving" the cue thru the ball ala Buddy.

I do both depending on what I'm trying to do,and often combine them.

The important thing is to not grip it so tight that it "chokes" off the intended spin. Unless that was the plan to begin with . Tommy D.