The Hustler and the Champ

[Johnnyt]

Come on Jam change it. As fast as you type it will only take you seconds Johnnyt

 

[memikey]

Unfortunately, Memikey, you'd lose that one decisively. In a fairly recent survey, the best-known pool player was Minnesota Fats. Jeanette Lee was second, the late Steve Mizerak was third (no doubt more in tribute to his Miller Lite commercials than his pool playing), and the great Mosconi was only fourth. GF

I honestly don't understand what you are saying.

From the beginning I have agreed 100% that Minnesota Fats is the best known pool player of all time in USA by far which is also what you seem to agree with.

So.....please explain what is the dispute or disagreement or other 'thing' that you think I would "lose decisively" ??????

 

[memikey]

I TOTALLY agree with you! Are you happy now? This thread has two tones to it that I see. And one is asking who was the most famous (or well known) pool player in America. Maybe you missed that part

It's nothing to do with who's happy. I didn't force you to interject something which made it clear you hadn't bothered to read the thread first, that was all your own decision, don't blame me. As it happens not only did I NOT miss the part about most famous in America I was actually the one in this thread who brought it up in the first place and I agree totally with you about Fats being the most famous in USA, please read post number 19!!!!!

And I happen to think that in this area of the planet, the answer to that question is Minnesota Fats, and not Mosconi or anyone else.

To take your worldwide argument a step farther, what pecentage of the world's six billion plus people know who Michael Jordan or even Tiger Wood's is? Do you have any idea? I suspect worldwide recognition is less than 10%.

I will tell you an interesting story that is pertinent to this discussion. In China, there are well over a billion people, in fact nearly 20% of the world's population reside there. Right John?

Next time you visit there, ask someone who the Beatles were. Or ask them if they ever heard of Elvis. You may be surprised with the answer you get over and over. NO!

The first real Chinese celebrity is Yao Ming, the basketball player.

So your worldwide 5% recognition factor is a safe bet. Celebrities like Fats were only famous in this little corner of the globe

Agreed, totally ......why are you repeating things that it's obvious we agree upon and which I've already made crystal clear in this thread I agree with you on, instead of admitting you just misunderstood what my line of argument was in the first place? Your first interjection in this thread was to express disagreement with something I never said in the first place, now when you've understood your misapprehension in that respect you appear to want to blame me for "not" having said what you mistakenly thought I said........ gimmee a break

By the way, the most famous American in our lifetime was undoubtedbly Muhammed Ali. He may have been known and recognized by a large percentage of the world population, maybe as much as 20-25%. I doubt they ever heard his name in China though

!!!!! Strange that you feel the need to draw my attention to this at this time as if its something I don't know, especially since I've already posted virtually the same thing myself about Ali in this thread, see post number 11 Of course if you had read the content of the thread before your first post or even if you had belatedly accepted the need to read the thread after your first post and after it was subsequently pointed that the content of your first post suggested that it would make sense for you to at least read the thread, and if you had even at that belated second opportunity actually bothered to read the thread before making this latest post...........you would already know that

 

[memikey]

Are we all now agreed that Walt Frazier was talking complete poo poo when he said that Fats was or is known to ALL of the non pool playing world and can we all further agree that Fats was and is NOT known to all non pool playing people inside America and can we all agree that Fats has been historically the pool player who has been 'heard of' by more Americans than any other in history but that as the pool playing population ages his "title" is being more and more seriously challenged by others?

 

[Johnnyt]

If you ask men under 40 it would be close between The Black Widow and The Fat Man. If you ask women under 40 I would bet more will say The Black Widow. I have three daughters in their 30's and all three said Lee first. Althoulh they did know who Fats was too. But that's because their dad was a pool player. I'm just talking the USA here. Johnnyt

 

[jay helfert]

It's nothing to do with who's happy. I didn't force you to interject something which made it clear you hadn't bothered to read the thread first, that was all your own decision, don't blame me. As it happens not only did I NOT miss the part about most famous in America I was actually the one in this thread who brought it up in the first place and I agree totally with you about Fats being the most famous in USA, please read post number 19!!!!!



Agreed, totally ......why are you repeating things that it's obvious we agree upon and which I've already made crystal clear in this thread I agree with you on, instead of admitting you just misunderstood what my line of argument was in the first place? Your first interjection in this thread was to express disagreement with something I never said in the first place, now when you've understood your misapprehension in that respect you appear to want to blame me for "not" having said what you mistakenly thought I said........ gimmee a break



!!!!! Strange that you feel the need to draw my attention to this at this time as if its something I don't know, especially since I've already posted virtually the same thing myself about Ali in this thread, see post number 11 Of course if you had read the content of the thread before your first post or even if you had belatedly accepted the need to read the thread after your first post and after it was subsequently pointed that the content of your first post suggested that it would make sense for you to at least read the thread, and if you had even at that belated second opportunity actually bothered to read the thread before making this latest post...........you would already know that

Repeat after me, "I will take my meds, I will take my meds."

 

[tom haney]

Absolutely no doubt whatsoever about the accuracy of the experiences you describe Scott, which I totally respect. It's just that your findings don't wholly support Walt's actual contention, mainly because you seem to have interpreted differently from me.............

Firstly, Walt did not say "MOST LAYPEOPLE IN USA"....he said that "ALL of the non pool playing world" had heard of Fats.

Secondly people in USA who take pool lessons and people who attend pool exhibitions are generally not obvious candidates for the category of "non pool playing world or for that matter non pool playing laypeople", so they can't have been what Walt had in mind, they certainly weren't what I had in mind. So setting them aside, do you really think that a large proportion of todays' population of USA, the vast majority of whom have no contact whatsoever with the pool world, have ever heard of Minnesota Fats? Half of the population is female and a significant proportion are kids under 15 years of age?

Thirdly and most importantly, contrary to some perceptions, the USA is not "the world". It's more than reasonable to estimate that the name Minnesota Fats would mean absolutely nothing to at least 99% of the NON pool playing sectors of the population of Africa nor to at least 99% of the NON pool playing sectors of the population of Asia and is unlikely to mean anything to at least 95% of the NON pool playing sectors of the population of Europe and Australasia/Oceania. Do the maths on those NON pool playing sectors of world populations and see if when adding the amount of people in the NON pool playing sectors of the population of USA who have heard of Minnesota Fats the total would come even remotely close to making the "world" figure more than 5%, probably more like "less than 2%" and even that's being very generous in favour of Fats.

Personally I doubt that anywhere near 5% of the world's ENTIRE population (ie even if we include every man jack of all the pool playing communities everywhere) would have ever heard of Minnesota Fats.

.....and just to add a little more controversy for dissection ....disagree with Walt on something else he said in the same post......I think that with today's much more readily available global communications etc it's likely that far more of today's living world population have heard of Efren Reyes than have heard of Minnesota Fats. A large proportion of those Americans, Europeans and Australasians with some interest in pool and who have heard of Minnesota Fats would be quite likely to have also heard of Efren Reyes' current exploits and ability whereas of the squillions of Asians (pool playing and non pool playing) who have heard of Efren Reyes only a small proportion would have heard of the more historical Minnesota Fats. Most of those NON pool playing Americans who have heard of Minnesota Fats would quite probably not have heard of Efren Reyes but that small difference in numbers in Fats favour would be completely dwarfed by virtue of the sheer size of the Asian populations.

In bringing a comparison with Muhammed Ali into the equation I don't think that Walt was trying to suggest that Fats was as well known worldwide as Ali, but since he was mentioned it might be appropriate to also add for some loosely connected perspective that for a very long time Ali was miles ahead of his nearest challenger for being "the person who would be recognised by more people in the world than anyone else" and even his factor was estimated at only about 18%.

Food for thought but don't shoot the messenger, I heard of Fats when I was 12 years old in Scotland and he'll do for me in any pool entertainment poll and I'm definitely buying that book

I see your point but... I was playing pool in Munich several years ago &
made a nice shot and a young German boy said, " Whoa! Another
Minnesota Fats.!"
Perhaps not a household name in the Middle East, but at one time
I bet he was pretty well known in the Western world because
of the movie.
It seems like you're getting Walt on a technicality, a slight exaggeration.
Here in West Virginia we can't talk without exaggerating.

 

[Johnnyt]

I know when X Pan was asked who was the player she looked up too...she said it was alys Jeanette Lee...so some know her in China. Johnnyt

 

[JAM]

Earl Strickland (3.8%)
Efren Reyes (0%)
Steve Mizerak (7.7%)
Alex Higgins (3.8%)
Cliff Thorburn (0%)
Rudolph Wanderone, Jr., a/k/a "Minnesota Fats" (38.5%)
Willie Mosconi (11.5%)
None (34.6%)

Here is the results so far on my poll of name-brand recognition. Looks like Minnesota Fats has the lead, with the option of NONE coming in as a close second.

JAM

 

[memikey]

Jay.....I will take my meds, I will take my meds

Thanks JAM, just the kind of useful input that's needed, when it is finished can you please let us know what the total number of people who responded was?

 

[deadwhak]

just wondering..should i get the huslter and champ book along with the kid delicious book or just one of them?????

 

[9balllvr]

Might even be amusing and give interesting results to list Fats twice under the two separate names and see the outcome........especially how many tick one box and not the other but then maybe that's just my mischievous mind.
QUOTE]

guess i have one of those minds too, because i was thinking the same thing - just to see the results. i am sure noone knows his proper name in the "real world" - i have been in the pool world for many years and until i read Hustler Days, didn't know his real name either. pretty sad

oops, too slow - just read the thread and saw there were already results provided.

 

[JAM]

...Thanks JAM, just the kind of useful input that's needed, when it is finished can you please let us know what the total number of people who responded was?

The results of my poll in a non-pool-related forum are in.

Have you ever heard of any of these people?

Earl Strickland (4.2%)
Efren Reyes (2.1%)
Steve Mizerak (4.2%)
Alex Higgins (4.2%)
Cliff Thorburn (2.1%)
Rudolph Wanderone, Jr., a/k/a "Minnesota Fats" (35.4%)
Willie Mosconi (12.5%)
None (35.4%)

I'm not sure what the plus-or-minus curve would be in this poll, but the responders were people in my industry of court reporting/transcription.

It looks like a tie between Minnesota Fats and "None" as far as name-brand recognition of pool champions.

JAM

 

[JimS]

Any idea what percentage of those who answered were male? I think guys are more likely to have heard pool names than women.

I played pool in the 50's and then not again until 1999. In 1999 I had heard of Mosconi, Fats, Mizerak and that's it. When I saw Nick, Hopkins, Rempe, Earl, Buddy etc on ESPN I'd never heard of any of them.I had never heard of Joe Balsis, Irving Crane, Grady, nobody.... and I was at least a little interested in pool... at least to the extent that whenever I heard anything about pool my ears perked up.

Point is that most people don't hear anything about pool and if they do they don't pay any attention at all.

 

[JAM]

Any idea what percentage of those who answered were male? I think guys are more likely to have heard pool names than women.

I played pool in the 50's and then not again until 1999. In 1999 I had heard of Mosconi, Fats, Mizerak and that's it. When I saw Nick, Hopkins, Rempe, Earl, Buddy etc on ESPN I'd never heard of any of them.I had never heard of Joe Balsis, Irving Crane, Grady, nobody.... and I was at least a little interested in pool... at least to the extent that whenever I heard anything about pool my ears perked up.

Point is that most people don't hear anything about pool and if they do they don't pay any attention at all.

Very good point. I believe 99 percent, if not all of them, were lady responders!

JAM

 

[Johnnyt]

If the Black Widow was a choice she would have won hands down with all women...probably with men too. Johnnyt

 

[olauzon]

picked up the book thursday at the PO and planning to read it from the west coast to east and back again next week, which btw is interesting info..

just by flipping through the pages anyone can see the answer to the question why pool isn't taken serious any more. it will never be that way again, ever.

i look forward to going on this trip, that's a sure thing.

cheers,

 

[JimS]

Very good point. I believe 99 percent, if not all of them, were lady responders!

JAM

No offense to the ladies but I think, I believe, that men would likely be a little more likely to have hear of some of the people in your poll but using myself as the example most men probably also have not heard of any of our pool playing heroes. As I said, I had not heard of anybody but Fats, Willie and Miz until 1999 when my interest in pool resurfaced. Then in 99, my new pool playing friends were shocked that I'd never heard of Buddy or Earl. That's the condition of the public.. I think.

Anyway... I got my copy of the new book this week and hope to dig in soon and for sure when the snow is flying.

Thanks JAM for the pool poll.