The Missing Gene....HEART!

[John Brumback]

The kid did try the OP even, didn't he?

The kid did lose 86% of the time once the stake was raised, didn't he?

Yes after asking and begging for 10 to 7.
And yes again but they were playing cheap.
Sounds like to me the kid was the one trying to hustle.
If the kid wants 10 to 7 from a complete stranger for a 100 a game,
That tells ya right there that the kid Is a good solid player and trying
to hustle someone.Big red flag right there.Sorry to you for sounding a little
rough but this subject Is a sore spot for me.I've been through the same thing for years.Glad I got away from It too. All the best to you sir.John B.

 

[cubc]

heart and nits.. funny things in the pool world. The person saying someone else doesn't have heart is usually just upset they couldn't rob someone. If they're so concerned about heart they could show a little themselves and try to outrun the weight. You might not always outrun it, but heart isn't cheap.

You're an unknown to this guy, willing to play a guy called in, beat him nearly every game after doubling the bet, but wouldnt even try 10/7. Sure u might've been being hustled and might've lost, but you would've been the one showing heart and instead you claim he had none. Most people would be cautious in that situation.

A lot of the better players usually dont work or have low income and lots of free time so they're going to play strong and dont have a lot of money to lose. So if u manage to win, they could pull up fast, if you lose they'll be your best friend. And if you ask for a spot or pull up because you know you cant win then all of a sudden you're a nit and have no heart. Anything to keep you playing.

Gotta love pool players... I love the game itself, hate most of the players.

 

[JB Cases]

heart and nits.. funny things in the pool world. The person saying someone else doesn't have heart is usually just upset they couldn't rob someone. If they're so concerned about heart they could show a little themselves and try to outrun the weight. You might not always outrun it, but heart isn't cheap.

You're an unknown to this guy, willing to play a guy called in, beat him nearly every game after doubling the bet, but wouldnt even try 10/7. Sure u might've been being hustled and might've lost, but you would've been the one showing heart and instead you claim he had none. Most people would be cautious in that situation.

A lot of the better players usually dont work or have low income and lots of free time so they're going to play strong and dont have a lot of money to lose. So if u manage to win, they could pull up fast, if you lose they'll be your best friend. And if you ask for a spot or pull up because you know you cant win then all of a sudden you're a nit and have no heart. Anything to keep you playing.

Gotta love pool players... I love the game itself, hate most of the players.

Huh?

First off they were both strangers to each other. Secondly the OP didn't try to high roll the player who was called to play. He played even and lost four games. They doubled the bet and he could have continued to lose if the other guy had been laying down. As it was he won some with close games and they quit. You aren't showing heart by giving up weight until you break even or lose. There is no rule book that says you have to give up weight after you win a few games.

Why in the world would someone give up 10:7 if they just won five games with each game coming down to two balls? I will tell you the only two reasons why that would ever happen.

1. The person giving up the spot knows they are stone stealing.
2. The person giving up the spot is dead stupid.

Heart has nothing to do with it at that point. If they are going to adjust then it's a ball maximum or something like 8/7 on your breaks and 9/8 on my breaks. No need to give up the world at that point just to give the money back.

I call someone a nit when they ask me for weight when they probably should be giving it. I call someone a nit when they ask for weight without any clue as to how I play and knowing I have no clue about how they play.

I call someone a nit if they beat my brains in all night and are way up and won't adjust even a tiny bit. I never call anyone a nit who won't give me the dead nuts. And I don't get called a nit because I don't ask for them either.

In this situation the OP played a fair game and didn't deserve to be crapped on by the local player. That's how I see it.

Now if it was me I'd have probably given up the 10:7 just to see if I could outrun the nuts. The way I figure it I had four barrels to fire at him and see what happens. Of course I have never had to make a living by gambling so I have been known to do crazy shit like that. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

Like I said heart/stupidty fine line.

 

[JonTravisTaylor]

For me it is about the game, not the cash...hence my willingness to play fo 10 or 20. But I don't want to feel robbed or taken advantage of. Here is an example...their are 2 guys at the pool hall, I walk up and offer to play...the first guy says we can play one pocket even for 50 a game. He is a good player and we play for about 1 hour, I lose 2 and win 1, pay off the 50 and quit him. I ask his buddy if he wants to play and he says yes, and informs me he is better than his friend I just quit. After a long night I lose about 850. The friend is watching the whole time and is pissed that i quit him and "went off" to his bud. He wanted to know what the deal was, so I told him...I don't mind losing if you can beat me. In fact I enjoy a good match. I have a good job and gambling at pool is just how i keep score. However, playing someone with a bad attitude, disrespect to other players and to the game itself, even if i am winning is just not worth it to me. I dont have any fun. (this perfectly describes the first guy)...every shot I made was lucky, or BS, slamming his cue around, throwing chalk etc. Who needs it? The 2nd gentleman, on the other hand was exactly that...a Gentleman. He played strong and smart, did not get upset at the "rolls", and over all had a great attitude, both towards me and towards the game. So even though I lost it was way more enjoyable for me. Don't get me wrong if I was hard up and needed the cash, I would have broke the first guy and ignored all the BS. But fortunately I am no longer in a position that I have to play everybody just to eat. Trying to always "outrun the weight" is a good way to get crushed...

 

[Black-Balled]

For me it is about the game, not the cash...hence my willingness to play fo 10 or 20. But I don't want to feel robbed or taken advantage of. Here is an example...their are 2 guys at the pool hall, I walk up and offer to play...the first guy says we can play one pocket even for 50 a game. He is a good player and we play for about 1 hour, I lose 2 and win 1, pay off the 50 and quit him. I ask his buddy if he wants to play and he says yes, and informs me he is better than his friend I just quit. After a long night I lose about 850. The friend is watching the whole time and is pissed that i quit him and "went off" to his bud. He wanted to know what the deal was, so I told him...I don't mind losing if you can beat me. In fact I enjoy a good match. I have a good job and gambling at pool is just how i keep score. However, playing someone with a bad attitude, disrespect to other players and to the game itself, even if i am winning is just not worth it to me. I dont have any fun. (this perfectly describes the first guy)...every shot I made was lucky, or BS, slamming his cue around, throwing chalk etc. Who needs it? The 2nd gentleman, on the other hand was exactly that...a Gentleman. He played strong and smart, did not get upset at the "rolls", and over all had a great attitude, both towards me and towards the game. So even though I lost it was way more enjoyable for me. Don't get me wrong if I was hard up and needed the cash, I would have broke the first guy and ignored all the BS. But fortunately I am no longer in a position that I have to play everybody just to eat. Trying to always "outrun the weight" is a good way to get crushed...

I was in complete agreement until the last line...which is no more true than 'Trying to always play 'even-up' is a good way to stay bust!' they are both generalizations.

 

[genomachino]

I agree............

In my experience, people often use the 'get some heart and play' line when theyt have the best of it. If you think it through, it is often a win-win for one who does it, he has the best of the matchup and the bet amount is usually higher.



And re TX:
So, you don't think the guy you played needed a little weight?
I ask him if he wants to double the bet. He agrees, I change my tactics, and I beat him 6 out of 7…
Reads like the definition of 'better', to me.

If you had brought a little more heart out you might have won a little something...you know- thell um 'you got that 10-7, 4 ahead for 1k'...whutwhut?!

Hi there,
I've been on both sides of the fence. Now being diabetic I have to be real careful what I get into and how long I can do it. People mistakenly label this as no heart sometimes but it's just a fact of life.

If a player that plays real good finally plays for some money and dogs it they might say he has no heart. Not really though. he's just not used to playing for money. You have to kind of build up to this. most players that gamble alot understand this.

When I'm on the road teaching I would make the mistake of playing someone right out of the gate the same day I saw them when I was tired and maybe hadn't played for a week or 5 days.I feel a little out of gear. Play anywhere from $200 to $500 sets and lose the first day because I'm just not right. Come back the second day and win convincingly only to have the player quit when we got back to even. Does that mean this player doesn't have heart and I do. Absolutely NO. He's just learned what the real score is and isn't stupid enough to donate.

On the other hand, do I have heart because I came back after losing $1000 the first day and still bet. Absolutely not. I got in gear a little the day before. Kind of like practice. I know what my top game is and I feel this guy can't beat me. If I lose am I a sucker. No. I just misread how good this guy could really play.

Bottom line is the better you play the smarter you look. The better you play the more heart you look like you have. But no matter who you are on a given day you will run into someone you play and just don't feel right and get your brains beat in. But then again if you play that good and the guy plays you the next day he's probably in trouble.

Does that mean you have heart. NO. Your just so much better and you know it. And you are in the most top notch stroke in your life.

Players today are smarter than ever and the players that I run around teaching in all the towns i go to are some of the nicest people in the world. They are the meat of this pool industry and in the past were punching bags for the would be road player.

Now that their more eduacated than ever doesn't mean they don't have heart. Their just smart and aren't going to donate their hard earned money.

Some of the players that I ran into that people would say didn't have heart had the biggest heart in the world. They are playing the local players that they know big dollar sets. They are competitors, just not donaters.

At least that's my point.

Good thread....Geno.......

 

[JonTravisTaylor]

Hi there,
I've been on both sides of the fence. Now being diabetic I have to be real careful what I get into and how long I can do it. People mistakenly label this as no heart sometimes but it's just a fact of life.

If a player that plays real good finally plays for some money and dogs it they might say he has no heart. Not really though. he's just not used to playing for money. You have to kind of build up to this. most players that gamble alot understand this.

When I'm on the road teaching I would make the mistake of playing someone right out of the gate the same day I saw them when I was tired and maybe hadn't played for a week or 5 days.I feel a little out of gear. Play anywhere from $200 to $500 sets and lose the first day because I'm just not right. Come back the second day and win convincingly only to have the player quit when we got back to even. Does that mean this player doesn't have heart and I do. Absolutely NO. He's just learned what the real score is and isn't stupid enough to donate.

On the other hand, do I have heart because I came back after losing $1000 the first day and still bet. Absolutely not. I got in gear a little the day before. Kind of like practice. I know what my top game is and I feel this guy can't beat me. If I lose am I a sucker. No. I just misread how good this guy could really play.

Bottom line is the better you play the smarter you look. The better you play the more heart you look like you have. But no matter who you are on a given day you will run into someone you play and just don't feel right and get your brains beat in. But then again if you play that good and the guy plays you the next day he's probably in trouble.

Does that mean you have heart. NO. Your just so much better and you know it. And you are in the most top notch stroke in your life.

Players today are smarter than ever and the players that I run around teaching in all the towns i go to are some of the nicest people in the world. They are the meat of this pool industry and in the past were punching bags for the would be road player.

Now that their more eduacated than ever doesn't mean they don't have heart. Their just smart and aren't going to donate their hard earned money.

Some of the players that I ran into that people would say didn't have heart had the biggest heart in the world. They are playing the local players that they know big dollar sets. They are competitors, just not donaters.

At least that's my point.

Good thread....Geno.......

Geno, i agree that players are smarter today, information is so much more readily available than 20-30 years ago. I guess what I mean by "heart" is this...if you or anybody else walked in and wanted to play me I would say yes for 10 or 20, just to see where we matched up and adjust form there. I have NEVER and could not imagine asking for weight from a complete stranger, especially with such low level stakes. If you are unknown to me I am obviously not going to come out of the gate playing 100 a game. I know where my game lines up, I know without a doubt that 20% of everyone on AZ would beat me in the long term. But I would throw 100 at them to see how we matched up. I think it is very "nitty" or lacks heart to demand big spots from strangers when you know you are better than average. Odds are no matter who steps up you are going to be close, or can adjust accordingly, so don't try to get the edge when realistically you wont need one. Its called gambling for a reason...everybody would like to be given an Ace up front in blackjack before you even placed a bet, but if you asked the pit boss for it??? Obviously @ 10 dollar one pocket I am not looking for donaters...

 

[JonTravisTaylor]

Geno, i agree that players are smarter today, information is so much more readily available than 20-30 years ago. I guess what I mean by "heart" is this...if you or anybody else walked in and wanted to play me I would say yes for 10 or 20, just to see where we matched up and adjust form there. I have NEVER and could not imagine asking for weight from a complete stranger, especially with such low level stakes. If you are unknown to me I am obviously not going to come out of the gate playing 100 a game. I know where my game lines up, I know without a doubt that 20% of everyone on AZ would beat me in the long term. But I would throw 100 at them to see how we matched up. I think it is very "nitty" or lacks heart to demand big spots from strangers when you know you are better than average. Odds are no matter who steps up you are going to be close, or can adjust accordingly, so don't try to get the edge when realistically you wont need one. Its called gambling for a reason...everybody would like to be given an Ace up front in blackjack before you even placed a bet, but if you asked the pit boss for it??? Obviously @ 10 dollar one pocket I am not looking for donaters...

one more quick point...after losing your 1000.00, knowing you were off, and knowing (or thinking) you can beat the guy, do you come back the next day and ask for the 7 out? I hope not. Much like "Vincent"...he just wants to play his best game, not hustle..."Hey Grady, up you AZZ with the spot!"

I have also been know to adjust the game myself, without my opponent saying a word, if i felt it was out of line in my favor...

 

[joe76195]

Anyone that asks a stranger for 10-7 playing ten dollar one pocket should have their gambling license revoked !

 

[JoeyA]

I can't help but add my voice in support of the OP. How in the world can any self-respecting player (one who was called in, at that) demand 10-7 out of the gate but declare that anything less than $50 a game isn't worth his time? If those elements didn't exist, I would be more inclined to have some sympathy for the opponent and to ask the OP to look at things from his oppoent's point of view. However, from how the scenario has been described it seems obvious to me that the OP was looking for a game and the opponent was looking for a score!

I agree with you as well. The larceny in the OP was there from the start. He figured that he would be sure to win with 10-7 and the fact that he wanted to jack the bet, guaranteed that was his perspective.

When people ask to play one pocket for $10 or $20 a game, they should get action wherever they go. That's about as cheap an entertainment as you can get.

You also have the other type who walks in, with a line on everyone in the pool room and knows that he can beat everyone there but isn't willing to play for less than a hundred or two a game.

At Buffalo Billiards in Metairie, you can get all the friendly action you can stand, even if you are a stranger. There aren't any champions there, just people who love the game and don't mind wagering a few bucks to test their mettle.

When you're trying to make the next week's rent, it turns a little more difficult. Like one of the other posters said, a lot of people are turned off by the game because they are goaded into a game and lose more than they could stand. There's a fine line between gambling at pool just to keep it interesting and trying to make your next week's salary in a night.

I feel sorry for those who hound people for a game. I feel sometimes that they have so much larceny in them, that they have to stoop to ridiculing their prospective customers and have to demand that they bet higher sums of money than their pc's would like to bet.

Pool is a great game to make small wagers at but when the wagers become more than friendly, like someone said, it can get ugly.

I can't count the times when I could have asked someone to play for money and didn't, even though I know they would have bet and I would have won. I can play for a little dough or I can play for the love of the game. The only thing I can't give my time to is just to bang the balls around, just to pass the time. If my opponent can't give me their best, I'll find someone who can and it doesn't have to be for money and they don't have to be the best.

If you've never seen someone gamble at pool and you don't know their speed, you should strongly consider gambling for the love of the game and keep it cheap. There's some hustlers out there, still patrolling the streets of the world and they have no mercy.

 

[Snapshot9]

I don't know

why you said he plays better than the kid. The kid won 5 games total and the originator of the post won 6 games. Sounds pretty even to me.

Anybody that walks in wants 10-7 spot and to play for $100 is looking to steal, IMO. The kid got what he deserved. At the very least, a 9-8 game would have been fair.

 

[JB Cases]

why you said he plays better than the kid. The kid won 5 games total and the originator of the post won 6 games. Sounds pretty even to me.

Anybody that walks in wants 10-7 spot and to play for $100 is looking to steal, IMO. The kid got what he deserved. At the very least, a 9-8 game would have been fair.

+1 great post. PLUS if Jon was a hustler then he would have gotten the kid to give him a spot and busted the whole joint. Doesn't anyone really understand what pool hustling is anymore?

 

[raise1]

why you said he plays better than the kid. The kid won 5 games total and the originator of the post won 6 games. Sounds pretty even to me.

Anybody that walks in wants 10-7 spot and to play for $100 is looking to steal, IMO. The kid got what he deserved. At the very least, a 9-8 game would have been fair.

I hope you are being sarcastic.

Look at the context of how the games were won/lost, the stakes as described in the first post.

I suspect that the kid might a chance in rotation games against the OP, but in 1-pocket???? No Chance.

 

[JoeyA]

heart and nits.. funny things in the pool world. The person saying someone else doesn't have heart is usually just upset they couldn't rob someone. If they're so concerned about heart they could show a little themselves and try to outrun the weight. You might not always outrun it, but heart isn't cheap.

You're an unknown to this guy, willing to play a guy called in, beat him nearly every game after doubling the bet, but wouldnt even try 10/7. Sure u might've been being hustled and might've lost, but you would've been the one showing heart and instead you claim he had none. Most people would be cautious in that situation.

A lot of the better players usually dont work or have low income and lots of free time so they're going to play strong and dont have a lot of money to lose. So if u manage to win, they could pull up fast, if you lose they'll be your best friend. And if you ask for a spot or pull up because you know you cant win then all of a sudden you're a nit and have no heart. Anything to keep you playing.

Gotta love pool players... I love the game itself, hate most of the players.

Hahahahaha. I empathize with you about your perspective but I don't hate most of the players. You're right about most everything.

 

[JoeyA]

I hope you are being sarcastic.

Look at the context of how the games were won/lost, the stakes as described in the first post.

I suspect that the kid might a chance in rotation games against the OP, but in 1-pocket???? No Chance.

I could only wish that the kid was posting his side of the story.

 

[JB Cases]

I hope you are being sarcastic.

Look at the context of how the games were won/lost, the stakes as described in the first post.

I suspect that the kid might a chance in rotation games against the OP, but in 1-pocket???? No Chance.

The games were lost by the OP because he gave up too many shots to a straight shooter. He asked to raise the bet out of frustration. Then he tightened up and still only managed to win the games by a a couple balls which says that one extra mistake would have cost him the game.

He could just as easily have continued to lose at $100 a game and gone flat off.

I know exactly how the OP feels. He was playing the best he could with no intention of hustling anyone, with no idea how good his opponent was or not and relying totally on his own idea that he could play better with more focus. Being down a couple hundred he managed to squeak out a little score and got called a hustler for it.

I have been there many times. Once in a while you manage to play decently and earn the score and people get really nitty over it like you cheated them somehow.

 

[raise1]

The games were lost by the OP because he gave up too many shots to a straight shooter. He asked to raise the bet out of frustration. Then he tightened up and still only managed to win the games by a a couple balls which says that one extra mistake would have cost him the game.

He could just as easily have continued to lose at $100 a game and gone flat off.

I know exactly how the OP feels. He was playing the best he could with no intention of hustling anyone, with no idea how good his opponent was or not and relying totally on his own idea that he could play better with more focus. Being down a couple hundred he managed to squeak out a little score and got called a hustler for it.

I have been there many times. Once in a while you manage to play decently and earn the score and people get really nitty over it like you cheated them somehow.

You assume way too much I don't even know where to start:

1/ You assume the OP asked to raise the bet "out of frustration". Nowhere in his post did he say he was frustrated. He did say the kid was a poor mover, which means that the OP knew he got the upper hand in the game of chess. Remember that, from his own words, the OP has been "into pool halls from Michigan to Texas, from Tennessee to Wyoming and pretty much all the states in between" and has gambled with everyone. So one can reasonably deduct that the OP is an excellent player himself.

2/ You assume that the OP tried his best, and since the games were close, it's a close match. Fact is the OP dominated the kid to the tune of winning 86% of the games once the OP raised the bet. Even Jack Cooney would be proud of the OP.

3/ Unless you are the OP, or know the OP's speed well, it is totally baseless to assume that the OP was playing his best as you said.

Before we get off track, the topic is missing HEART. What I find ironic is that the OP got the cash -in a game where he clearly has the best of with all of his experience for being into every pool room in the country- yet the kid is called out???

 

[Robroy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSM1mvMypWU

Where is it? Is it completely gone from our world? I don’t think so; it’s just very rare to see…
I’m in a random pool hall, I just walked in and nobody knows me, there is a young guy running a million balls on a Pro Diamond, I ask for a game…”I’ll call a guy, I know somebody”, I tell him I am not looking to make anybody’s rent payment I just want to play, I like cheap one pocket…20 a game, I would even play for 5 or 10, I just want to play…”I can’t right now, but I will call a guy”. I wait around about 90 mins., hit some on the Diamond, getting the feel of the table, when finally this kid shows up. He is about 20 years my junior, breaks out a SW, and says to me he will play some one pocket for 100 a game but he wants to get 10-7. I just laugh. I tell him I am just wanting to play cheap, and we can play even. He comes back with “cheap is not worth the time, and I don’t know you so I need 10-7”. I laugh again and tell him FU, I don’t know you either, and since they got you on speed dial you should give me 10-7. He refuses, then proceeds to walk around, talking to everybody that will listen, while watching me practice…this goes on for another hour. Finally he comes over and starts whining about needing something…I told him he’s right…he needs some HEART! I tell him that kids like him is the reason I quit playing for 10 years. It seems everybody wants the stone cold nuts before they risk a dime. He finally relents and says he can play but for no less than 50, I lose 4 games right off the bat. He is a great shot maker, but a poor mover. I feel like I should beat him if I tighten up and quit leaving him risk/reward shots because he keeps making them! It’s his break, I am stuck 200, and I ask him if he wants to double the bet. He agrees, I change my tactics, and I beat him 6 out of 7…let the flood gates open, the crying starts and he wants 10-7 again. I did not run over this kid, all those games were very close, usually coming down to the last 2 balls. Needless to say we never could agree on a spot, and that makes me a “F’ng Hustler”.
I was never a hustler. When I grew up, the way I learned to play is I practiced a million hours and would play ANYBODY. I walked into pool halls from Michigan to Texas, from Tennessee to Wyoming and pretty much all the states in between. I would walk straight up to the counter, request a rack of balls and ask who the best player in the room was. Then I went and respectfully asked him to play. We gambled but it wasn’t huge but it did allow us to keep score  I NEVER beat them…I was never the best, but I always learned something to make me better. I always learned who the next player down the rung was and then I would go play them…usually within a few matches I knew where I was on the food chain. This enabled me to adjust my wagering accordingly so that the trip wasn’t a complete bust.
I was exposed to the stigma and derision from my family due to my choices growing up. It is up to us to change the way pool is viewed. We have to make sure up and comers realize that pool; 99.9 % of the time is a PASSION, not a livelihood. Just look at the number of broke champions out there! Show a little heart and some class. Be willing to bet smaller to help educate, or better yet to learn. I once had 20 dollars to my name and I ran into a certified champion, and he played me one-pocket for 1.00 a game. FOR THE LOVE OF THE GAME! Certainly not because he needed my last 20.
We all know that the vast majority of us will not get rich playing pool. But if we are lucky we can help mold the way our industry is looked at, help to build champions whose CORE beliefs are Honesty and Integrity. We could learn a lot from the PGA and its affiliates. If you are fortunate enough to be able to play this game I hope you have the same types of memories and experiences that kept me coming back. Along the way I have lost thousands, but I would not trade it in a second. There was a Professor, the Magician, The Rocket, The Cannon, Banks, Bugs, The Freezer, Shorty’s, and more “Little _ _ _’s” than I can count. All great players. All enriched my life, even if not my wallet…

I really enjoyed your story, thanks for sharing!

 

[JonTravisTaylor]

I really enjoyed your story, thanks for sharing!

Thanks Robin! Over the years I have enjoyed seeing you play. You are a credit to the game!

 

[JonTravisTaylor]

Raise1 please read the last paragraph of my thread...the point is if we all act honorably, billiards will be better off in the long run...if you are willing to play an unknown, demand a big spot, and wont play for less than 100 a game?? You are not acting with honor, you are just looking for an easy score.