the sad atate of pool in America

I'll tell you when pool started to go to hell in this country. About the same time the "Made in America" started its down hill slide in value as well. Americans feel they're entitled to what ever America stands for to them. Most pool player in this country feel as long as they can pay an entry fee, they have the rights to play any world class player that enters a tournament for their own entertainment, they feel they're entitled to *****, complain, and threaten to with hold their entry fees unless their demands are met, and promoters know they need the masses of the entitled players to support the pool tournament's they promote as they only contribute a chicken shit amount of the actual prize money and the rest comes from the masses.

I'll tell you why pool is dying in this country. It's because no one wants to change the way things are, except for the worse. When most room owners start seeing their income starting to slide...they start charging more to those still showing up, rather than fixing the problems as to why customers are starting to decline. Believe it or not "POOL" is MADE IN AMERICA all the way, but like so many other things in this country, "SOLD IN AMERICA" should be the next great motor! Because the rest of the world has cause onto the fact that if the build it better, sell it cheaper....they'll have loyal AMERICAN buyers all day long, BECAUSE MADE IN AMERICA cost to much anymore. See, rather than fix the problem....raise the cost to the last remaining customers you have left. MADE IN AMERICA is just like most of the league players out here, IF you want MY business, then in turn I WANT FREE POOL, A ROUND OF DRINKS....AND FREE PRACTICE TIME....because I'M WORTH IT. Well, a lot of bars and pool rooms that tried to use that BS to save their ass's still failed....because they failed to fix the underlying problems they already had....rather than fix the bathrooms, keep up with their pool tables, replace the carpet....make their place more presentable to their customers....they continued to take what ever they could until there was nothing left to take....and then closed the doors....so that everyone might morn the loss of another place to play pool.

Pool is growing like wildfire in other countries. We have the best slate queries in the world in Vermont, why are we buying slate from Brazil? We use to have cloth mills in this country, but not anymore. We really don't make the BEST of anything anymore....do we?

The American public shops at Walmart not because they can afford it, they shop there because everyone else is OVER PRICED compared to what they're WILLING to pay. And the POOL world is the same way, players wanting more....but want to spend less. Owners wanting more income, but are less than willing to invest a dime to be more presentable to ATTRACT customers.

WHY does anyone think it took Mark Griffin so long to get Pool Sharks reopened? I'll tell you why, because he knows in order to be successful he has to show first off....I'm not like the other owners, I'm going to invest in YOU the customer as much as I'm going to invest in this SHIT HOLE and get it cleaned up and respectable again....because you customers deserve to have a clean, safe, and decent place to play pool, where you can drink and get some great food to eat as well.

When you raise your rates and costs to the customer because you've made the investment, they'll return it in favor. If you simply raise your cost to the customer and the see they get nothing in return....LIKE DOING THINGS THE AMERICAN WAY....get ready to fall flat on your face.

When POOL began to slide in AMERICA, was about the same time the rest of the world started discover what a great sport this is.....and the AMERICAN pool players felt to ENTITLED that the world could do NOTHING to take this sport from us.....like FOOTBALL, BASKETBALL, BASEBALL...no one can take THOSE sports from us AMERICANS........IF WE DON'T LET THE REST OF THE WORLD PLAY they'll always be OUR very own sports!!!.....LOLOLOLOLOL
 
There are 2 contributing factors to what I se is wrong with pool in America. There are undoubtedly more factors though.

One is what I call ....the dumbing down factor. Over the years rules have been changed to make it easier to run out. I am no history expert on why or when those rules were put in place but they have had a negative affect as evidenced in our losses in mosconi cup over the last few years.


In the U.S. Many towns and cities in the 70's developed ordinances against arcades because they were seen as trouble spots . Most small pool rooms had pin ball machines. In the 80's it became video games . They were hangouts for young people and trouble would start therefore ordinances. Rooms made money off juke boxes , pin ball and Coke and snack machines.

Europe and Asian countries are essentially monolithic culturally and racially , at least until the last 20 years for Europe and tradition held behavior in check. So if you grow up in a places where you don't have access to a pool table why would you become interested in it. Who would open a low profit business with limitations baby sitting a bunch of smart ass teenage boys who think they can whip everybody trashing your establishment everyday.

In a real pool room from yesterday the patrons themselves would have enforced a certain pool room behavior since they play on the tables.
 
Many people lump " all pool " together, and then assume that their own experiences must equate to the entire pool world (at least in the u.s.).

But all pool is not the same. There's pool in private clubs, basements, garages, dens, man-caves, and even in living rooms, that has nothing to do with pool in bars, pool halls, or professional tours.

There is pool in bars, taverns, pubs, clubs, sports bars and pool halls that has nothing to with pool at home or pro tours .

There are local tours and leagues that only depend on the local economy and facilities, and have nothing to do with pool at home or pro tours.

There are pro events that have nothing to do with private pool, bar room pool, or local leagues and tours.

And while it's true that " public popularity" driven by exposure ( tv and movies etc) can increase player numbers across the board, at the same time, pool suffering in one area does not mean that pool is suffering in all areas.

Simply put, it's pool's public popularity that continuously suffers, but not pool's private popularity.

The opening and closing of pool rooms is more often related to localized economic issues than to " a bad reputation". Its not like they have protesters outside demanding that their den of sin be shut down, or a town full of people all decide that pool sucks on the same day.

That being said, yes, pro pool/billiards in the u.s. is in bad shape. But it's getting better. Its just not happening very fast.
 
Many people lump " all pool " together, and then assume that their own experiences must equate to the entire pool world (at least in the u.s.).

But all pool is not the same. There's pool in private clubs, basements, garages, dens, man-caves, and even in living rooms, that has nothing to do with pool in bars, pool halls, or professional tours.

There is pool in bars, taverns, pubs, clubs, sports bars and pool halls that has nothing to with pool at home or pro tours .

There are local tours and leagues that only depend on the local economy and facilities, and have nothing to do with pool at home or pro tours.

There are pro events that have nothing to do with private pool, bar room pool, or local leagues and tours.

And while it's true that " public popularity" driven by exposure ( tv and movies etc) can increase player numbers across the board, at the same time, pool suffering in one area does not mean that pool is suffering in all areas.

Simply put, it's pool's public popularity that continuously suffers, but not pool's private popularity.

The opening and closing of pool rooms is more often related to localized economic issues than to " a bad reputation". Its not like they have protesters outside demanding that their den of sin be shut down, or a town full of people all decide that pool sucks on the same day.

That being said, yes, pro pool/billiards in the u.s. is in bad shape. But it's getting better. Its just not happening very fast.
Would you quit using words such as pro tour, professionals and such because in this country there is no such thing. And for what it's worth, I've been working in this industry now for almost 34 years and you might say my line of work is the heartbeat of this industry. I'm the one that notices the decline in service work first. I'm the one that notices the decline in delivering new table sales. I'm the one that notices new people trying to break into this industry from coast to coast....traveling and working in every state we have in on this continent. I've lived Germany and Italy for 7 years....I've seen the growth over there while the erosion takes place here in our own country....care to explain what I've seen with my own eyes....or are you just going to keep guessing as to what's really going on?
 
Maybe it's just me but the only thing suffering in this country when it comes to the pool world is just the professional side of things.

Living in the vicinity of NYC, there are a ton of good things happening in the amateur side. I've only played in the league I play in now but I can honestly say the overwhelming majority of players there strive to be better. I recently played in The Tri State Tour and what I like about that tour is that the handicap is only games and no balls. So basically it's my skill versus my opponents and one of us just gets a game or two.

Now, I know that the overwhelming majority of the country does not have the luxury to be so close to these many leagues/tours and high level players, but there are still a hell of a lot of BCA, TAP, APA and other stuff from what I've seen.

In the end, the real problem from everything that I see is not the players, but people who own pool halls who do not care about the game to upkeep equipment and give the players the best possible environment to play at. Trust me, my local hall has been run down for years and it's well know the guy who owns it just doesn't care. He is more than happy to get his money from the local high school crowd because he offers hookah which is a big thing for that crowd. And it's really a shame cause that pool hall has 26 Gold Crowns and would be the perfect place to host huge tournaments.
 
Many great posts in this thread.

Also, great strategic minds and talent that could have become great pool players have instead chosen to become professional poker players. A movie like Color of Money gave pool a big boost back in 1986. The Rounders movie did the same for Poker, along with the proliferation of the internet. Talented strategic minds have also chosen the route of computer gaming.

The city I live in, about 100,000, does not even have a local pool hall anymore that I know of. The last one closed down about 8 years ago. I have to go to Denver or Ft. Collins to find 9' tables to play on.
 
Many great posts in this thread.

Also, great strategic minds and talent that could have become great pool players have instead chosen to become professional poker players. A movie like Color of Money gave pool a big boost back in 1986. The Rounders movie did the same for Poker, along with the proliferation of the internet. Talented strategic minds have also chosen the route of computer gaming.

The city I live in, about 100,000, does not even have a local pool hall anymore that I know of. The last one closed down about 8 years ago. I have to go to Denver or Ft. Collins to find 9' tables to play on.

There you go - follow the money! The same casinos that once hosted and sponsored pool tournaments found out they get better revenue from hosting Texas Hold'Em! The purse for one of these events is larger than the purse for the entire year for probably all the pro tours combined.

I live in a city of 225,000 and we have exactly one that I know of. I came back after a 7 year hiatus. Asked if they have leagues, and the guy says, Sure, every Wednesday. Came down to check it out, and it was 10 people hanging around the only 7' coin-op table. Guh.... They have about 25 or so 9' Gold Crowns, and the front 8 or so have pockets shimmed to under 4". I'm not hitting them as good as I'd like, because I jiggle too many balls in the jaws. Tough to cheat a pocket that's smaller than 2 balls. My buddy has an 8' table with the larger pockets, and I ran a few racks of 8 and 9 on that table...

Maybe someday I'll have the motivation to start a league or small tournament. Just not at a point where I have the desire or motivation to do so. Hopefully before this place also bites the dust. I remember when it was a bowling alley. Kind of like ol' Fieldston's in the Bronx, but they closed maybe 12-14 years ago...
 
If the state of pool in America is so bad, then why are there so many foreigners playing in American pool tournaments, and a few of them stay here for good.

Pool players are no different from plumbers or bricklayers. A certain %age of them opt for themselves and their families to enjoy an American lifestyle. There is no significant difference whether pool play in the US or Europe. Less than a dozen including women have made the lifestyle relocation while thousands of carpenters, engineers including my own son and grandchildren upped sticks and emigrated
 
Would you quit using words such as pro tour, professionals and such because in this country there is no such thing. And for what it's worth, I've been working in this industry now for almost 34 years and you might say my line of work is the heartbeat of this industry. I'm the one that notices the decline in service work first. I'm the one that notices the decline in delivering new table sales. I'm the one that notices new people trying to break into this industry from coast to coast....traveling and working in every state we have in on this continent. I've lived Germany and Italy for 7 years....I've seen the growth over there while the erosion takes place here in our own country....care to explain what I've seen with my own eyes....or are you just going to keep guessing as to what's really going on?

Glen if you are half as intelligent as you constantly brag about being, then you already know that in Chicago we know exactly what's going on in the pool world, and don't need a furniture repairman to explain anything. But thanks though.

I will however take a copy of that Dunn and Bradstreet when you're done with it .
Oh wait nvrmnd
 
Glen if you are half as intelligent as you constantly brag about being, then you already know that in Chicago we know exactly what's going on in the pool world, and don't need a furniture repairman to explain anything. But thanks though.

I will however take a copy of that Dunn and Bradstreet when you're done with it .
Oh wait nvrmnd

Furniture repairman? Really, I had hoped you'd have more insight to pool tables than to refer to them as furniture, but then again, you see this business no different than anyone else....through blind eyes!
 
Just like anyone else?
You're right Glen .
We're all blind. All of us but you.
Ivan Lee.....just a hack.
Skip Nemecek ...just a hack
Mike Panozzo ....just a wannabee.
Mike Howerton, Mark Cantrill, Jerry Forsyth .....just a bunch a dreamers.
All 200+ of the guests on ABR....every one just idiots.
And my 30,000+ document and artifact collection makes me the biggest idiot of all.

You're right Glen. " we " cant compete with the likes of you .

Or...

Maybe, just maybe, you're not the only one who understands the industry, despite your constant insistence that you are.
 
Just like anyone else?
You're right Glen .
We're all blind. All of us but you.
Ivan Lee.....just a hack.
Skip Nemecek ...just a hack
Mike Panozzo ....just a wannabee.
Mike Howerton, Mark Cantrill, Jerry Forsyth .....just a bunch a dreamers.
All 200+ of the guests on ABR....every one just idiots.
And my 30,000+ document and artifact collection makes me the biggest idiot of all.

You're right Glen. " we " cant compete with the likes of you .

Or...

Maybe, just maybe, you're not the only one who understands the industry, despite your constant insistence that you are.

Well then tell me something, why are most of the pool tables sold in this country....coming in from China? And, why is there NOT pool tournament's being held for Pros Only?
 
All 200+ of the guests on ABR....every one just idiots.

Sorry to interrupt the fun you two are having, but what is the ABR you mentioned? Would love to see your collection of Billiard items if you have pictures handy, 3,000 pieces is a very impressive number!!


Thank you,
Neil
 
All 200+ of the guests on ABR....every one just idiots.

Sorry to interrupt the fun you two are having, but what is the ABR you mentioned? Do you have more pictures of your collection? 3,000 pieces is a very impressive amount and I'd love to see anything you have handy and would like to share.


Thank you,
Neil
 
I commented on this thread simply to point out that "all" pool is not doomed, despite the popular trend of believing ( and saying) that it is.

I did not comment with the intent of debating the how and why with you ( Glen) or anyone else, because there is no point.

If you have something else to share on the subject, feel free to do so.
 
Sorry to interrupt the fun you two are having, but what is the ABR you mentioned? Do you have more pictures of your collection? 3,000 pieces is a very impressive amount and I'd love to see anything you have handy and would like to share.


Thank you,
Neil

It IS fun! because Glen gets all frothy around the mouth. He's a very passionate man God bless him.

ABR is: americanbilliardradio.com
See also: Chicagobilliardmuseum.org
 
ABR is: americanbilliardradio.com
See also: Chicagobilliardmuseum.org

Saw the website for the museum pics, it's a very nice collection of unique pictures. Thank you for the information, now back to your regularly scheduled bashing.


Neil
 
I commented on this thread simply to point out that "all" pool is not doomed, despite the popular trend of believing ( and saying) that it is.

I did not comment with the intent of debating the how and why with you ( Glen) or anyone else, because there is no point.

If you have something else to share on the subject, feel free to do so.
I also tend to think how depressed pool seems to you may depend upon where you live. Some cities have multiple nice rooms that are busy on a regular basis with lots of players, tournaments, etc. Other places like here in Indy pool seems really down. We only have 2 poolrooms in the entire city. Compared to other cities of similar size that's not very many. APA is big here, but most of those players don't play pool outside of league. So pool here seems like it's in bad shape. It's all about perspective.

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The pool hall I play league out of gives you a rack of balls and a table to practice on before league starts. This pool hall utilizes 16 tables for league play five nights a week and twice on Sunday. That's 8 players X 16 teams for a total of 128 players (per league). That's 128 players that most of them are buying food and beer/mixed drinks. Leagues are full every night, every session. Do you actually think that pool hall is going out of business or doing pool a disservice for allowing free practice?

No pool hall stays open because of profits made on table time. There are many underlying factors which we never see as to why a room is successful or not. I once played out of a bar that gave a complimentary drink to each league member that showed up for that particular night. What I found out later was the owner/operator of said bar had a habit of shady business practices that helped her recoup the costs of the free drinks.

Getting back to the pool hall I play in: It is one of the healthiest and busiest rooms in the area and is in NO danger of closing its doors. Free table time is not a threat to this room. They get $5 green fees per team/per night. They make their $$$ on food & drinks, and thank goodness there are plenty of them....128-a-night of them (not counting non-league customers) eating and drinking.

Lots of drinkers down here in Texas with deep pockets when it comes to their beer and alcohol.

I agree that pool is in the shitter, but I disagree with your opinion that free table time has anything to do with it.

Maniac (tips the wait staff even if he doesn't drink....diabetes and 9 different medications doesn't allow me to anymore)

I mentioned in my op that we do have a pool.hall here that provides free practice before and after league. He is the only room around here that does . His business is also thriving with leagues almost every night with Sundays being the mow popular.

10 master teams once a month with 8 scotch doubles teams playing at the same time. Then 2 hours later we have double jeapordy taking up all 12 valleys and 6 gold crowns due ri not enough valleys for every team.

He also happens to promote money added pro tournaments...one pocket ....9 ball and 8 ball and brings in big truck to steam them. Hw also sponsors pros tournaments around the country. I highly doubt he could afford that by providing free table time. During league we drop quarters in the valleys and the teams that play on the gold crowns just pay 10.00 for the entire team.

I am not naive enough to think table time alone pays the bills. The issue I have is apparently in some areas of the counts lo's strong arm establishments into providing free time in order to host that leagues players or the players themselves expect free time .

It seems to me when there is son money coming from table time the owners will maintain the tables more frequently than tables being viewed as a fixture in a room where there sole purpose is to keep customers occupied and stay long enough for the owners to make a lil money off food and drinks. Whatever money generated off table time could at least pay for maintenance instead of taking it out of revenue made from drinks and food.

Having dated one girl who worked in a pool hall and lived with another for 5 years who also worked in a pool hall part time to supplement her day job I have heard plenty of stories about what demographic of pool players tip better.

Got a story I want to share that I heard from the girl I used to live with.

One Sunday evening 2 guys were playing 9 ball....race to 7 for 500.00 a set. When it got close to 12:00 she told him it was closing time. They asked her if she would stay open a lil longer for them . She explained her time stopped at 12:00 and that she had to get up at 6:00 for her day job. They said they would take care of her. Well when they got through and left at 1:15 she got 3.00 in tips. A dollar from one and two from the other. That was her entire tho from her waiting on them all night never mind she stayed an hour late on her own dime.

Playing 6 hours for 500.00 sets and the girl stays an hour late on her own time and you leave a friggin dollar ?

Now you see why I have made several references to cheap ass pool players on this forum.
.
 
I mentioned in my op that we do have a pool.hall here that provides free practice before and after league. He is the only room around here that does . His business is also thriving with leagues almost every night with Sundays being the mow popular.

10 master teams once a month with 8 scotch doubles teams playing at the same time. Then 2 hours later we have double jeapordy taking up all 12 valleys and 6 gold crowns due ri not enough valleys for every team.

He also happens to promote money added pro tournaments...one pocket ....9 ball and 8 ball and brings in big truck to steam them. Hw also sponsors pros tournaments around the country. I highly doubt he could afford that by providing free table time. During league we drop quarters in the valleys and the teams that play on the gold crowns just pay 10.00 for the entire team.

I am not naive enough to think table time alone pays the bills. The issue I have is apparently in some areas of the counts lo's strong arm establishments into providing free time in order to host that leagues players or the players themselves expect free time .

It seems to me when there is son money coming from table time the owners will maintain the tables more frequently than tables being viewed as a fixture in a room where there sole purpose is to keep customers occupied and stay long enough for the owners to make a lil money off food and drinks. Whatever money generated off table time could at least pay for maintenance instead of taking it out of revenue made from drinks and food.

Having dated one girl who worked in a pool hall and lived with another for 5 years who also worked in a pool hall part time to supplement her day job I have heard plenty of stories about what demographic of pool players tip better.

Got a story I want to share that I heard from the girl I used to live with.

One Sunday evening 2 guys were playing 9 ball....race to 7 for 500.00 a set. When it got close to 12:00 she told him it was closing time. They asked her if she would stay open a lil longer for them . She explained her time stopped at 12:00 and that she had to get up at 6:00 for her day job. They said they would take care of her. Well when they got through and left at 1:15 she got 3.00 in tips. A dollar from one and two from the other. That was her entire tho from her waiting on them all night never mind she stayed an hour late on her own dime.

Playing 6 hours for 500.00 sets and the girl stays an hour late on her own time and you leave a friggin dollar ?

Now you see why I have made several references to cheap ass pool players on this forum.
.

Well what did she expect? Doesn't matter if it's a pool hall, bowling alley, race track, golf course, jai alai - there are degenerates everywhere. You got to separate the wheat from the chaff - and they were chaff! Having worked in both a pool hall and bowling alley, it's amazing how similar these two sports parallel.

Unlike other sports, pool is not primarily played as a team game. As such, it's more an "every man for himself" game. Which is fine. But realize that while recreationally, pool is probably the number one participant sport, but on a competitive level it is pretty much an individual's game. And as such, it attracts at a higher level many of those who would not normally join a team event. Which may explain some of the attitudes of our "favorite" stars.

I don't know who the association is for the billiard hall proprietors. In bowling it's the BPAA - Bowling Proprietors' Association of America. And they are a separate entity from the USBC, which is the governing body of the sport. There are about 7 organizations of the bowling industry, all housed in one building in Arlington, TX, and it seems none of them talk to each other. The USBC exists to maintain what integrity is left of the sport - which some argue has been "dumbed down" or made too easy, and it's existence to some extent making it difficult for proprietors to make money. The BPAA is more concerned about the recreation aspect, more so to the detriment of leagues and tournaments. It's actually quite shocking how wide the disconnect is. I can see the BPAA looking after the financial needs of the proprietor, but pushing gimmicky things like "disco night" over leagues (which are a continuous guaranteed revenue stream) and installing redemption games and laser tag really cheapen the sport. On the other hand the USBC requires now a $19 fee for both summer and winter sessions, and other than the stupid patches we get for honor scores and the yearly Nationals which less and less attend every year.
 
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