The "Tragedy" of the jump cue?

Jump Cues

  • Greatest addition to the game ever!

    Votes: 8 3.7%
  • Acceptible addition

    Votes: 93 42.7%
  • Neutral

    Votes: 24 11.0%
  • Shouldn't be a part of the game.

    Votes: 93 42.7%

  • Total voters
    218
  • Poll closed .
Slider said:
there is a distinct interuption in the flow of the game when a player walks over to their seat and pulls out a specialty cue that they hurriedly screw together for a fast stab at a jump shot. (the shot clock is still ticking through all of this)
Ken

K-man,
There is definitely some interruption of the flow of the game; but I believe you
are mistaken about the shot clock issue. When a player needs to fuss with their equipment (get a bridge, get a jump cue, exchange a break cue for the regular cue), the shot clock is stopped until the equipment issue is resolved and the player is back at the table. If you note players rushing (at least on the WPBA tour where I have operated shot clocks on many occasions), then they are just anxious to get back to the table.

I am certainly in total agreement with sjm about the issue (except for the last line - I bought one just in case, because I don't want to lose - is this grounds for expulsion from the "old school"?????????)
 
If you want to practice jump shots use the a break patch under the cue ball. I makes the shot harder so you need to take that into consideration. As for the damage to a table, every break (hard) is a jump shot. All those spots and "divots" in the break lines are more noticeable than the odd spot around the table. The same spots occur during a masse or perhaps a hard draw shot played from the rail and elevated.

I have a jump cue. I can use it. My favourite player is Efren Reyes. I am of the mind that kicking is more of an art, but the jump shot is exciting too. I agree that with minimal practice nearly anyone can learn to jump, but making the shot or playing it into a safe is quite another matter. I enjoy playing an entire match without my jump cue, but when there is a crowd and the jump shot is on, it certainly adds to the excitement.

I don't care if they are allowed or not, I am having a lot of fun with this thread...glad to post it! I haven't been on AZ too long, maybe 6 or 7 months, and if this topic has been beaten to death I apologze. But it is fun!
 
Well said, John

We could have this discussion relating to any sport, steel rackets in tennis, etc.

Heck, one night I missed 3 jump shots in a row with my jumper, so the next one that came up, I just jumped with my playing cue and made it, and the next 3 after that.

Latest thing I have seen with jump cues, players are breaking with them.

I always evaluate the shot whether a kick or jump would be better, and especially which one might get the better leave if I most likely won't make the shot, and yes, sometimes I shoot a jump shot to get a leave and not to try to make the ball.

I love these guys that get pretty good with a jump cue, better than they can normally shoot because I know they don't know their rails. I just lock them up tight for a 2-3-4 rail kick shot, get ball in hand and run out.

I think Jump cues are good because:
1) Offers more options for each shot.
2) People like to watch jump shots, more excitement.
3) Takes skill to execute a good jump shot and make it.
4) Keeps the 'Win anyway you can' attitude in the game.

In fact, I have found myself wanting to carry 2 jumpers, 1 for real close-ups and another for all other jumps with perhaps better control.
And I just pendulum stroke, but I am going to practice the dart stroke
 
PoolSponge said:
If you want to practice jump shots use the a break patch under the cue ball. I makes the shot harder so you need to take that into consideration. As for the damage to a table, every break (hard) is a jump shot. All those spots and "divots" in the break lines are more noticeable than the odd spot around the table. The same spots occur during a masse or perhaps a hard draw shot played from the rail and elevated.

I have a jump cue. I can use it. My favourite player is Efren Reyes. I am of the mind that kicking is more of an art, but the jump shot is exciting too. I agree that with minimal practice nearly anyone can learn to jump, but making the shot or playing it into a safe is quite another matter. I enjoy playing an entire match without my jump cue, but when there is a crowd and the jump shot is on, it certainly adds to the excitement.

I don't care if they are allowed or not, I am having a lot of fun with this thread...glad to post it! I haven't been on AZ too long, maybe 6 or 7 months, and if this topic has been beaten to death I apologze. But it is fun!

Yes, I agree.

Some of the greatest kickers also jump. One player that comes to mind is Charlie Bryant. He has a good jump stroke, jumps very well, but also is probabaly one of the most knowledgable on kicking in the US.

When Charlie's book comes out, I am sure a lot of players will benefit a lot from learning the kicking systems in his book. I can't wait.

Richard
 
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well since the jump cue is a Tragedy, then the break cue should be something like setting off a Nuclear bomb!

I mean if it was such a black eye in the face of billiards then why is a jump cue allowed?

I learned to kick at balls before I ever had a jump cue. And then about a year after I was playing pool all the time, I bought a Buddy Hall/lucasi signature jump cue.

I spent a good 2hours learning how to use this jump cue. Once I got the method down, it was pretty easy.

I use a Elite jump cue now, but I rarely use it, unless I have no way to kick out of the situation, or a kick shot is a very low %.
 
I'm not really against them but I much prefer to see a good kick played. I may one day buy a j/b stick but I doubt the jump part will get much use from me.
 
sjm said:
Adapted from a previous post of mine:

The problem I have with jump cues is largely philosophical. Situational cues during the play has never been a part of the game. If jump cues are to be allowed, why shouldn't somebody be allowed to use any cue on any shot. For some shots, I'd rather have a stiff shaft, for others I'd like to have a short ferrule, for others I'd like to have a very large tip, for others I'd like to have a harder tip, etc. I'm not allowed to use situational cues or shafts, however. It's very deeply embedded in the history of the game that I must learn to execute all of my shots with my regular playing cue.

The day I'm allowed to use any cue or shaft I like on any shot is the day I'll agree that a jump cue should be permitted. At that point, I'll probably look a lot like a golfer, carrying fourteen sticks to cover all possible shots. Until that day arrives, however, count me among those rubbed the wrong way by jump cues.

It doesn't bother me that much that people can jump to get out of an opponent's safety, but what makes me crazy is watching players escape without sufficient penalty when they make major errors in position play. I'm an old schooler, and to me, there is nothing more sacred than position play. Play poor position and your chance to run out is forfeited.....that is, of course, unless you play in the era in which even D players are able to execute more than a few jump shots.

I have never purchased a jump cue. As an accomplished player, several have asked me over the years why I don't own one. My answer is quite simple: "I'd rather lose."

In previous time the "situation" did not require the use of a jump cue as there was always a way within the rules to play a legal defensive shot. Also you could play a deliberate foul and the penalty was not as severe as modern 9 Ball under the ball-in-hand rule.

As the rules and situations have changed so has the equipment and ability to adapt to those rules.

From an absolute purity standpoint the jump shot is nothing more than the physical manifestation of a person's skill and ability. It is no more skilled than a draw shot or a five rail kick shot.

It needs to be said at this juncture that billiards is a situational game. Different tables, different games, differing rules. Would any of us begrudge a player who came to every tournament with 50 cues in his car and chose the one he felt best with on that day to play with? Would we truly care?

Hypothethically, what if that Pro Player won every tournament in a year's time with a different cue each time? And if in the interview he said that he picks the cue to play with depending on the conditions of each tournament. I bet that the majority of players would set about finding out what his criteria are and there would be an upsurge in purchasing like equipment for each "differing" situation.

The only situation we are talking about here is that a player needs to make a good hit and wants to give himself the best chance to execute the shot. If the kick shot is the best option then he should know how to do it and choose it. If the jump shot is the best option then he should know how to do it and choose it.

Back to our hypothetical player: What if said player had determined that the end rail was not reacting properly and was unpredictable so he chose the jump shot over the normally better kick shot? Who are we to tell the player his choice is wrong and a detriment to "the game"?

Just because players don't travel with ten sticks doesn't mean that it's NOT the right way to go about it.

Why doesn't a pool player play with a snooker cue? Why doesn't Ronnie O'Sullivan play snooker with a pool cue? Why doesn't Torbjorn Blohmdahl use a snooker or pool cue to play 3 Cushion?

Because each of those games is in fact dependent on the best equipment for the task. And the subtasks within each game sometimes require other equipment. A masse' goes easier with a cue designed for that purpose. A jump goes easier with a cue designed for that. Snooker sees the use of bridges and cue extensions quite often. None of these devices takes the shot for the player.

It is the player who must strike the cueball and create an action. It is the player's skill and ability that make the shot not the cue. The cue is merely a conduit. No Meucci cue ever drew the cueball four rails without a player to stroke it.

I disagree that it is embedded in the game that one must learn all shots with one cue. I think that in and of itself is situational. People who can afford more equipment experiment more with different types, people who can't tweak what they have. Since the invention of the cuestick in it's modern from people have been tweaking it in the attempt to find the best performance.

If there were such historical requirement to learn all shots with one cue then we would only have one cue with one rigidly defined set of specifications to go along with an unbending set of rules.

As it is however the "games" of billiards are now and have been fluid for two hundred years.

I also don't subscribe to the notion that one should get a jump cue because they don't want to get beat by one. That is ridiculous. A player should invest in what helps them to play the game at the highest level they can. Be that in a jump cue that expands the range of possible shots or in books and instruction that teach kicking systems or both if they are smart.

I would hope that you are equally mortified when the outgoing player is rewarded with leaving a safety following a badly missed shot. Why should the incoming player not have the best possible chance to escape that situation?

I will stand by my contention that if jump cues had been introduced 50 years then they would be an accepted part of billiards tradition in the same way that no one questions leather tips and chalk now. If Willie Mosconi had used jump cues then the books would be full of jumping instructions and examples of jump shots Willie had made in critical game situations. Let's not confuse history with evolution. What is now will be the "history" that someone invokes in the future. And the reality is that jump cues are a needed part of the "game" as it is played now.

You don't want jump cues, then change the rules so that there is no situation where they are required.
 
By the way. I can teach ANY beginner to kick one, two, three, four, and five rails in about 30 minutes. I can have them doing consistent one rail kicks in less than five minutes.

There is no secret to kicking balls. It's not magic. It's math. Now, being able to perform under pressure - that's amazing. Whether it be a jump shot or a kick shot.

Here's another question to ponder which has NEVER yet been answered in this or any other forum?

If a jump shot using a jump cue is not a skill shot then what is a jump-kick shot made with a jump cue? If you saw me do a perfect jump, 3 rail kick shot using a jump cue would you applaud the skill or would you believe that the cue did it?
 
sjm said:
Adapted from a previous post of mine:

The problem I have with jump cues is largely philosophical. Situational cues during the play has never been a part of the game. If jump cues are to be allowed, why shouldn't somebody be allowed to use any cue on any shot. For some shots, I'd rather have a stiff shaft, for others I'd like to have a short ferrule, for others I'd like to have a very large tip, for others I'd like to have a harder tip, etc. I'm not allowed to use situational cues or shafts, however. It's very deeply embedded in the history of the game that I must learn to execute all of my shots with my regular playing cue.

The day I'm allowed to use any cue or shaft I like on any shot is the day I'll agree that a jump cue should be permitted. At that point, I'll probably look a lot like a golfer, carrying fourteen sticks to cover all possible shots. Until that day arrives, however, count me among those rubbed the wrong way by jump cues.

It doesn't bother me that much that people can jump to get out of an opponent's safety, but what makes me crazy is watching players escape without sufficient penalty when they make major errors in position play. I'm an old schooler, and to me, there is nothing more sacred than position play. Play poor position and your chance to run out is forfeited.....that is, of course, unless you play in the era in which even D players are able to execute more than a few jump shots.

I have never purchased a jump cue. As an accomplished player, several have asked me over the years why I don't own one. My answer is quite simple: "I'd rather lose."

Excellent post!
 
sjm said:
... I have never purchased a jump cue. As an accomplished player, several have asked me over the years why I don't own one. My answer is quite simple: "I'd rather lose."
Me neither. I'm with you and Earl and the IPT on this one. Any clumsy fool can jump with one of those trick jump rods, and many do. I think the problem as far as the rules go is that the BCA was swayed too much by the greedy opportunists who are milking the fad. The rules that did come in to outlaw the all-metal jump rods and such are largely ignored now -- note the phenolic tips in wide use.

Call me antediluvian if you want, but that crap doesn't belong in the game.
 
PoolSponge said:
If you want to practice jump shots use the a break patch under the cue ball. I makes the shot harder so you need to take that into consideration. As for the damage to a table, every break (hard) is a jump shot. All those spots and "divots" in the break lines are more noticeable than the odd spot around the table. The same spots occur during a masse or perhaps a hard draw shot played from the rail and elevated.


Completely true about the effects of breaking, hard draws, and masses. The difference I believe is these shots are a normal part of the game. The jump shot seems more optional and therefore not entirely neccessary.

I do admit they are fun, but even with a protective pad, I'm not sure I would invite all my friends over for jump shot practice, that is if I had a table. :D
 
John Barton said:
In previous time the "situation" did not require the use of a jump cue as there was always a way within the rules to play a legal defensive shot. Also you could play a deliberate foul and the penalty was not as severe as modern 9 Ball under the ball-in-hand rule.

As the rules and situations have changed so has the equipment and ability to adapt to those rules.

From an absolute purity standpoint the jump shot is nothing more than the physical manifestation of a person's skill and ability. It is no more skilled than a draw shot or a five rail kick shot.

It needs to be said at this juncture that billiards is a situational game. Different tables, different games, differing rules. Would any of us begrudge a player who came to every tournament with 50 cues in his car and chose the one he felt best with on that day to play with? Would we truly care?

Hypothethically, what if that Pro Player won every tournament in a year's time with a different cue each time? And if in the interview he said that he picks the cue to play with depending on the conditions of each tournament. I bet that the majority of players would set about finding out what his criteria are and there would be an upsurge in purchasing like equipment for each "differing" situation.

The only situation we are talking about here is that a player needs to make a good hit and wants to give himself the best chance to execute the shot. If the kick shot is the best option then he should know how to do it and choose it. If the jump shot is the best option then he should know how to do it and choose it.

Back to our hypothetical player: What if said player had determined that the end rail was not reacting properly and was unpredictable so he chose the jump shot over the normally better kick shot? Who are we to tell the player his choice is wrong and a detriment to "the game"?

Just because players don't travel with ten sticks doesn't mean that it's NOT the right way to go about it.

Why doesn't a pool player play with a snooker cue? Why doesn't Ronnie O'Sullivan play snooker with a pool cue? Why doesn't Torbjorn Blohmdahl use a snooker or pool cue to play 3 Cushion?

Because each of those games is in fact dependent on the best equipment for the task. And the subtasks within each game sometimes require other equipment. A masse' goes easier with a cue designed for that purpose. A jump goes easier with a cue designed for that. Snooker sees the use of bridges and cue extensions quite often. None of these devices takes the shot for the player.

It is the player who must strike the cueball and create an action. It is the player's skill and ability that make the shot not the cue. The cue is merely a conduit. No Meucci cue ever drew the cueball four rails without a player to stroke it.

I disagree that it is embedded in the game that one must learn all shots with one cue. I think that in and of itself is situational. People who can afford more equipment experiment more with different types, people who can't tweak what they have. Since the invention of the cuestick in it's modern from people have been tweaking it in the attempt to find the best performance.

If there were such historical requirement to learn all shots with one cue then we would only have one cue with one rigidly defined set of specifications to go along with an unbending set of rules.

As it is however the "games" of billiards are now and have been fluid for two hundred years.

I also don't subscribe to the notion that one should get a jump cue because they don't want to get beat by one. That is ridiculous. A player should invest in what helps them to play the game at the highest level they can. Be that in a jump cue that expands the range of possible shots or in books and instruction that teach kicking systems or both if they are smart.

I would hope that you are equally mortified when the outgoing player is rewarded with leaving a safety following a badly missed shot. Why should the incoming player not have the best possible chance to escape that situation?

I will stand by my contention that if jump cues had been introduced 50 years then they would be an accepted part of billiards tradition in the same way that no one questions leather tips and chalk now. If Willie Mosconi had used jump cues then the books would be full of jumping instructions and examples of jump shots Willie had made in critical game situations. Let's not confuse history with evolution. What is now will be the "history" that someone invokes in the future. And the reality is that jump cues are a needed part of the "game" as it is played now.

You don't want jump cues, then change the rules so that there is no situation where they are required.

actually there are situations and games where jumping is not allowed. like I said, I have nothing against jump shooters. I couldn't care less on beating players who suck at kicking or using rails. the only concern here is the way how the game is supposed to be played. played on cloth , not on air. rolling the ball, not flying the ball. that is the purpose why the billiard table and game is created for. rolling the balls on cloth and using the rails. otherwise rails are rendered useless by then and shouldn't be used for what it was created for at all.

I wouldn't mind if cuesticks evolved, as long as the purpose and nature of the game is maintained intact (which is the use of the table and rails). I myself don't use a JQ, though I used to jump with a normal house cue some years ago. I ditched the skill coz it more like I'm not playing the game how it is supposed to be played. just my 2cents. ;)
 
Bob Jewett said:
Me neither. I'm with you and Earl and the IPT on this one. Any clumsy fool can jump with one of those trick jump rods, and many do. I think the problem as far as the rules go is that the BCA was swayed too much by the greedy opportunists who are milking the fad. The rules that did come in to outlaw the all-metal jump rods and such are largely ignored now -- note the phenolic tips in wide use.

Call me antediluvian if you want, but that crap doesn't belong in the game.

Ok, you're antediluvian :-) whatever that means (I am too lazy too look it up right now, but I will).

Earl used a "jump" cue. He has a Cuetec cue that was about two or three inches shorter than his normal cue that he would sometimes use for jump shots. That's a jump cue in my book when he uses a modified cue because it gives him a better range or a better chance to accomplish his task.

As far as changing the rules goes, I am for that as long as the rules are fair. I'd like to see 9 ball go to call everything. I don't like to see a player miss and then escape with a lucky safety, nor do I like to see a player fluke a ball in to win.

Comparing someone who can make the ball hop with a jump cue is the same as saying that anyone can accidentally draw the ball table length. How many times have we seen absolute beginners pull off incredible shots with no clue as to how they did it or how to repeat it?

Even Efren realizes that the skill lies not in doing something once but in the ability to master the task. Which is why he says that he learns crazy shots from bangers and then works to master them.

I suppose I could be one of those "greedy opportunists" you speak of since I introduced the world to the "Bunjee" brand of jump cue in 1998. I take exception though with your characterization. Why aren't cuemakers greedy opportunists when they innovate? How about cloth makers? Ball makers? Why aren't we playing on the same equipment now as we were 100 years ago?

The jump cue has evolved from the clumsy rods that did in fact facilitate the jumping effect and not much more into a pool cue that affords the player almost all of the control and precision of a standard length cue with the added ability to make the cueball clear other balls at any distance from the blocking ball. In any other arena the act of making a sphere behave as precisely as that would be heralded as a great display of skill.

Come on Bob, do you REALLY care that any joe blow can make the cue ball hop with a jump cue MORE than you care to see the jump cue employed in the hands of the greatest players in the world with the greatest precision in high pressure situations?

Seriously folks, it is just a tool used to play the game. In the hands of an oaf it's a clumsy and inelegant solution to a personal problem of thinking that they can buy a better game. In the hands of an expert it is a marvel of technology and skill combined.

I guess John Wesley Hyatt was an opportunist, as was Herman Rambow, And Francois Mignaud as well. I suppose the introduction of vulcanized rubber rails was done by a greedy opportunist as well. How dare he bring consistency to the rebound. How about just the introduction of a rebound itself? How many more shots and depth did the game acquire through the introduction of rubber cushions? Well, the sport of 3 Cushion Billiards probably wouldn't exist for one thing. Damn greedy opportunists forcing all these newfangled things on the game and ruining how it was meant to played.

I find that you have greatly insulted the many people who have endeavored to make this a better game. It's in incredibly poor taste for you to describe the hard work of many in this sector of the industry as greedy opportunists. The greedy opportunists here are the companies that don't innovate, they steal the ideas from others and sell the resulting products for half the price and deliver a quarter of the quality.

When talking about how the game is "meant" to be played could you please tell me how it was "meant" to be played before the introduction of the chalked leather tip?

The way the game is meant to be played is to make balls fall into holes. It was adapted from a game where the object was to make balls go through holes. The only restriction is that one use an implement to direct the balls. The subsequent improvements to the implements are directly related to the task of getting the balls in the holes and fulfilling the meaning of the game.

It is quite obvious that IF the method of getting the balls to the holes is not destructive to the playing field and the equipment and if it does not aid the user mechanically then it should be allowed.

The pool cue and the jump cue are inert objects that are are the result of many years of engineering to make them as suitable to the task as an inert object can be. And when the task is performed at the highest level the equipment used to perform it is not even a consideration in the performance.

I find it to be quite amusing that you and others would seek to quash the river of innovation instead of working with it to meld the rules and the equipment to a point where the game can be played at the highest level possible. Taking away choices and possibilities is ludicrous.

No Bob, you are not antediluvian, you are selectively opinionated. If you were antediluvian then you would sponsor a contest at the Derby City Classic where the object was to push balls through hoops set up on a wooden table with a green cloth resembling grass ad using a curved stick instead of a contest for a game that is only possible to play thanks to all the work of the opportunists.
 
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Hail Mary Shot said:
actually there are situations and games where jumping is not allowed. like I said, I have nothing against jump shooters. I couldn't care less on beating players who suck at kicking or using rails. the only concern here is the way how the game is supposed to be played. played on cloth , not on air. rolling the ball, not flying the ball. that is the purpose why the billiard table and game is created for. rolling the balls on cloth and using the rails. otherwise rails are rendered useless by then and shouldn't be used for what it was created for at all.

I wouldn't mind if cuesticks evolved, as long as the purpose and nature of the game is maintained intact (which is the use of the table and rails). I myself don't use a JQ, though I used to jump with a normal house cue some years ago. I ditched the skill coz it more like I'm not playing the game how it is supposed to be played. just my 2cents. ;)

And in those games there is either no need for a jump cue or the game is being played in a manner that does not allow the players to use the highest level of skill available to them to succeed in the game.

Many people bring up snooker. Well in snooker you can just roll up to a ball to play safe, there is no need to hit a rail after contact. Also in snooker the opponent can force the shooter to shoot again if he misses making a legal shot or he has to take the cueball where it lays, no ball in hand. This negates the need for a jump cue although not entirely for the jump shot but their rules are sufficient to cover it.

As far as how the game is supposed to be played. As long as it remains within the rails and the rules that's how it is supposed to be played as far as I am concerned.

I love it how folks want to encapusulate "the game" into some sort of ancient tradition. It's not ancient, it's the same thing we humans do in all aspects, we try and "succeed" but putting balls into holes. Billiards is reflective of the ingenuity of man to put that activity into a relatively small space and make it accessible to everyone. "The game" is played in probably more forms than any other similar sport in the world. There is no particular tradition to or "way" other than man should triumph by his own skill and that is exactly what he does when he uses inert tools in a skilled manner.

If you choose to cut yourself off from a needed skill then it's your choice. Many carriage makers refused to learn to be auto mechanics and so they went out of the business of transportation altogether. If you get more satisfaction out of winning without using the skill of jumping balls then that's a great personal choice. I would venture to say though that you don't win as often as you could if you developed and used the skill.

But it's certainly not right and not your right to take away that choice from others because you have an unfounded belief about how things should be based on how you think they were in the past. (if that's how you feel)
 
Ok, note to self. Never, ever, ever, get into a debate with John Barton!

I feel that of all the opinions being given on this thread John, you have obviously put the most thought into yours. It is obvious that you feel strongly that the jump cue is an addition within the inevitable evolution of the game we all love to play.

What I wish more people felt was that the jump cue allows for a certain shot to be played. The individual player needs to not only possess the skill to execute the shot, but the knowledge of when to shoot it. I love setting traps for the little jumpers out there who can't kick balls. It makes my job easier. The room I play in has so many players that love to shoot the jump shots, and some very well, that they never learn to kick correctly or accurately. I eat them for lunch. It is harder to play safe against a kicker than a jumper. A jumper can hit most balls, but rarely can control what happens if you leave them a baited shot.

For those players on this site, and I know there are a lot, that truly play this game at a high level, you work so hard on learning the player so your game is a direct assault on them why not add baiting a jumper to sell out.

Final thought...if we all think that jump cues are "cheap" what is the difference to a person making a jump shot to win a match vs. a player fluking a brutal safety that results in winning the match? I would rather see at least the level of skill and nerve required to shoot the jump rather than a hack safe made out of total luck.
 
I am suprised that most of you keep saying jump shot is an easy shot. I am still trying to learn how to execute a jump shot with good control and precision, and there are so many different kinds of jump shots out there.

Even among pro players, I notice some are better than others with the jump.

For example, the jump shot Alex made with two rests in the US Open, was a key shot in him winning. (Yes, John I know he was using a Bunjee.:) ), and Jose, on the other hand, seemed a bit inferior in his jumping skill, in my opinion.

Mika Immonen is one of the best jumper out there in my opinion. I remember he pushed out to a jump (a table length jump with the object ball two diamonds above the pocket on the rail) against I believe to be Tony Drago in the World Pool Championship a few years back. Tony rolled his eyes, and gave the shot to Mika. Mika pulled out his red Falcon jump break cue, unscrew the jump portion, made the jump, and ran out the table. I do not see anything easy about that jump shot at all--it took skill, nerve, and lots of great control, to make that jump and ran out from there.)

I notice that sometimes my body angle is not perfectly in line when I jump, so I miss my jump. Now, I try to adjust my feet placement to adjust my body alignment. My pre shot routine is also very important, I have noticed, because most of the time, I cannot see my object ball once I am down on my shot.

Anyway, I am just really confused why people keep saying the jump is easy, as if a caveman can do it. I have found the jump to be one of the most difficult yet powerful shot to master, and I see nothing wrong with finding better equipment to play this shot.

Richard
 
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Sharing some previous forum experiences, I must concede that John Barton has definitely helped me to develop a greater appreciation for the skill required to become a great jump shooter.

Each time this subject comes up, I enjoy John's posts, and this occasion is no exception. I may not agree with him, but I understand his point of view and admire the way he presents it.
 
PoolSponge said:
Ok, note to self. Never, ever, ever, get into a debate with John Barton!

I feel that of all the opinions being given on this thread John, you have obviously put the most thought into yours. It is obvious that you feel strongly that the jump cue is an addition within the inevitable evolution of the game we all love to play.

What I wish more people felt was that the jump cue allows for a certain shot to be played. The individual player needs to not only possess the skill to execute the shot, but the knowledge of when to shoot it. I love setting traps for the little jumpers out there who can't kick balls. It makes my job easier. The room I play in has so many players that love to shoot the jump shots, and some very well, that they never learn to kick correctly or accurately. I eat them for lunch. It is harder to play safe against a kicker than a jumper. A jumper can hit most balls, but rarely can control what happens if you leave them a baited shot.

For those players on this site, and I know there are a lot, that truly play this game at a high level, you work so hard on learning the player so your game is a direct assault on them why not add baiting a jumper to sell out.

Final thought...if we all think that jump cues are "cheap" what is the difference to a person making a jump shot to win a match vs. a player fluking a brutal safety that results in winning the match? I would rather see at least the level of skill and nerve required to shoot the jump rather than a hack safe made out of total luck.

Let me be clear. I am not pro or anti jump cue. If the rules were changed to disallow them then I would adapt and live with it. But I would hope that the rule makers would consider the reasons that jump cues really exist and make rules that still allow for the greatest skill to be be displayed rather than creating situations that become dependent on luck.

There is no doubt that jump cues have made better players out of people in general. You have to have a decent stroke to jump balls at all even with a jump cue. I have personally coached thousands of people and fixed their stroke while teaching them to jump. Dozens of them have thanked me for teaching them things about stoking that they didn't know before and that has helped their game overall.

Out of the thousands of jump cues buyers there are surely many who have taken the time to practice the new range of shots available to them and so they have become more skilled at that aspect. I have even seen one person referring to himself as a Pro Jump Shot Artist.

And finally, as with all warfare, when a new offensive weapon is introduced, a new defensive one must counter it. As you pointed out you bait the players who can't control their jump shots knowing that the percentage of a sellout is high. Others have stated that their safety play has gotten better. Mine has too. I will submit that also through better safety play the need to know how to kick more precisely has increased and therefore more folk are learning that skill to a higher degree.

Additionally, I wouldn't be surprised if more folks aren't being sparked to learn more about kicking just because of these debates.

So on net, the introduction of the jump cue has been a good thing for pool as I see it. And it's not really the introduction of jump cues that has the purists enraged. It's the success of them.

"Jump" Cues have been here for quite a while beginning with Joss and Meucci to name two who brought them out in mass production. Sammy Jones even produced a video.

I can't remember one article or negative conversation about jump cues until the jump rods came out. And that's really the distinction right there. The jump rods were not cues. They were devices that made the ball skip. You could do the same thing with a wooden mallet. The Joss and Meucci jump cues were clearly cues.

Today's jump cues have the jumping capacity of the jump rods combined with the precision of a normal cue. But I believe it's the distaste for unskilled and largely uncontrollable jumping done with the jump rods that clouds the issue today.

Today, I applaud a good shot done with a jump cue. I applaud any good shot. I am either silent when I see someone flailing at jump shots or I attempt to coach them. Here in China I have coached several good players and in the process made them better.

I totally agree with your last paragraph and it sums up my premise exactly.
 
sjm said:
Sharing some previous forum experiences, I must concede that John Barton has definitely helped me to develop a greater appreciation for the skill required to become a great jump shooter.

Each time this subject comes up, I enjoy John's posts, and this occasion is no exception. I may not agree with him, but I understand his point of view and admire the way he presents it.

Thanks Stu.

I should also relate from personal experience with others that although you and I have never played I doubt highly that I would win against you with me using a jump cue and you not.

I have lost to many good players who didn't use a jump cue even once in our match whether they had them or not.

All the best.
 
John Barton said:
Let me be clear. I am not pro or anti jump cue. If the rules were changed to disallow them then I would adapt and live with it. But I would hope that the rule makers would consider the reasons that jump cues really exist and make rules that still allow for the greatest skill to be be displayed rather than creating situations that become dependent on luck.

There is no doubt that jump cues have made better players out of people in general. You have to have a decent stroke to jump balls at all even with a jump cue. I have personally coached thousands of people and fixed their stroke while teaching them to jump. Dozens of them have thanked me for teaching them things about stoking that they didn't know before and that has helped their game overall.

Out of the thousands of jump cues buyers there are surely many who have taken the time to practice the new range of shots available to them and so they have become more skilled at that aspect. I have even seen one person referring to himself as a Pro Jump Shot Artist.

And finally, as with all warfare, when a new offensive weapon is introduced, a new defensive one must counter it. As you pointed out you bait the players who can't control their jump shots knowing that the percentage of a sellout is high. Others have stated that their safety play has gotten better. Mine has too. I will submit that also through better safety play the need to know how to kick more precisely has increased and therefore more folk are learning that skill to a higher degree.

Additionally, I wouldn't be surprised if more folks aren't being sparked to learn more about kicking just because of these debates.

So on net, the introduction of the jump cue has been a good thing for pool as I see it. And it's not really the introduction of jump cues that has the purists enraged. It's the success of them.

"Jump" Cues have been here for quite a while beginning with Joss and Meucci to name two who brought them out in mass production. Sammy Jones even produced a video.

I can't remember one article or negative conversation about jump cues until the jump rods came out. And that's really the distinction right there. The jump rods were not cues. They were devices that made the ball skip. You could do the same thing with a wooden mallet. The Joss and Meucci jump cues were clearly cues.

Today's jump cues have the jumping capacity of the jump rods combined with the precision of a normal cue. But I believe it's the distaste for unskilled and largely uncontrollable jumping done with the jump rods that clouds the issue today.

Today, I applaud a good shot done with a jump cue. I applaud any good shot. I am either silent when I see someone flailing at jump shots or I attempt to coach them. Here in China I have coached several good players and in the process made them better.

I totally agree with your last paragraph and it sums up my premise exactly.

No Problem John. It is actually my belief. though I must say that I lost a few games against jump shooters, but most of the time I lose a lot against good kickers. As what I have seen and some of us here have seen what jump has done to most beginners and to some players. We don't mind monopolizing the game against these guys. Just so sad for these guys though that they might never learn or improve their game! that's all ! :(
 
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