The True Record Hi Run

[lfigueroa]

My source was George Rood, he and I spent the last 10 or 12 years of his life together playing in and around Springfield Ohio.
He played Mosconi many times in exhibitions and bought the East High Billiards room with Russ Maddox a couple of years after the record was set.
George still played good enough to beat most people when he was 85 years old.
George was not in attendance when Mosconi made his record , but he knew the table well, as that was his main room.
I never, ever felt any sour grapes from George, against Mosconi.
He always talked highly of him , other than that he hated to lose and when he did he got pissy for a while.
Off the table, he said he was a great guy.

Yes, I knew George, back when my sister and mother-in-law lived in Dayton for several years, not to mention the numerous times I flew out there from the Pentagon to visit Wright-Pat (at ease, Blue Hog

George and I talked numerous times about Mosconi up on the raised tier by the bar at Airway. I also got the chance to play numerous guys there, including Steve Cook and Jason Miller, and was always to happy to say hello to Tim. It was a great action room where you could always get a game of cheap 1pocket.

So, are you saying that George said Mosconi preferred to play on an 8 footer everywhere, or just at the the room in Springfield?

Lou Figueroa

 

[pdcue]

There's an idea.... a series of people taking video of themselves Hunting Mosconi on 4x8 tables with 5" pockets. Any takers? I think I cleared 80+ on an 8 footer when I was 23. Haven't played Straight Pool since those days, and the pockets were 4.5".

Come on boys, step up. Raise the methuselan straight poolers and film those codgers chasing Willie da Wop's ghost on GIMME tables. I guarantee you that SVB, Darren Applebutter, Earl the Squirrel and many others could and should just spend an hour or so and tear this faux legend down. I would love to see Allison Fisher take this on.... it would be great press for the ladies, taking down a greasy man from the mean old days of misogyny.

It could be a thing. We make a trophy in Willie's likeness and whoever has video proof of breaking the record on a comparably equipped table (or harder....erm, normal) gets the trophy until someone else wins it.... then they have to fork it over.

Lesh

The RUN was only one of Mosconi's many accomplishments. AND... it was an
exhibition.

FWIW - all those great players you mentioned would not have had a ghost
of a chance against Mosconi in his prime

Dale

 

[pdcue]

Can someone tell me why Mosconi's record is talked about so much ?
A great run ... Sure .... But HELLO ?? It was on a 4 x 8 ?!?!?
Isn't the regulation table a 4 1/2 x 9 ? Shouldn't the true record hi run be acknowledged as the person with the highest run ( with several witnesses ), on a 4 1/2 x 9 table ?
If Mosconi ran .... Say .... 850 on a 3 1/2 x 7 table ... Would that also be recognized as the hi run record ??? And speaking of that.... Is it possible that Mosconi does have the record hi run from the 30's -40's , when the regulation table back then was a 5 x 10 ?
I think he tore off a 365 or something like that, which to me, was way more impressive
Would love to hear some thoughts from you seasoned straight poolers.
Thanks, Bill

I just checked... the search function still works.

There have been enough posts on this and other forums etc. to keep you reading for
a week.

ps: because it is the only official one.

Dale

 

[pdcue]

Yes, I knew George, back when my sister and mother-in-law lived in Dayton for several years, not to mention the numerous times I flew out there from the Pentagon to visit Wright-Pat (at ease, Blue Hog

George and I talked numerous times about Mosconi up on the raised tier by the bar at Airway. I also got the chance to play numerous guys there, including Steve Cook and Jason Miller, and was always to happy to say hello to Tim. It was a great action room where you could always get a game of cheap 1pocket.

So, are you saying that George said Mosconi preferred to play on an 8 footer everywhere, or just at the the room in Springfield?

Lou Figueroa

What George actually said was Mosconi preferred to play on a 4 x 8 because
he could use his full SLIPSTROKE.

Dale(slip sliding away...)

 

[Kim Bye]

How important is Mosconi`s high run today?, so much has changed from back then, cloth, tables, balls, rails, pocket size etc.
There is active players today with records over 400 balls, that seems much more relevant.

 

[book collector]

I don't mean to hijack this thread but lets take it in a slightly different direction.
Lets wave the magic wand and get all the great straight pool players of all time from Greenleaf to the present. Lets have them all be in their prime and used to what ever equipment we have now. Remember we can do this it's magic.
So now we have all the greats assembled on equal footing. We put them in a room and let them play for 30 days straight pool.
Who comes out the winner?
Now i think Mosconi and Greenleaf have to be the favorites.
Any thoughts?
Remember it's magic.

I'll take Greenleaf , then Mosconi.
I'm not saying that any of todays players would not be able to learn the game better and eventually beat them, just that I don't think they are as knowledgeable about the game.
They just haven't played it as much.
Greenleaf had tournaments where he never missed a called ball on a 5x10 with heavy directional cloth.
It was a totally different game on that equipment.
Much, much tougher to move the cueball around.

 

[Quesports]

How important is Mosconi`s high run today?, so much has changed from back then, cloth, tables, balls, rails, pocket size etc.
There is active players today with records over 400 balls, that seems much more relevant.

It is important today, that we are discussing it is proof of that. It has stood for years as well and it is up to today's players to set a record of their own. As you point out equipment has changed and with today's cue making technology combined with all the other advances it should be easy for one of today's players to break Willie's record right? To imply that Willie Mosconi's record is not relevant is like saying Babe Ruth was not relevant to baseball..

 

[Marc]

Mosconi

I understand it's never accurate to compare players from different eras, but to me, to say Mosconi was the best ever isn't accurate neither.

Pool and ability in pool in my opinion is easy to clock.
All you have to do is judge a player's speed,cue ball control,shotmaking,creativity,and then mental toughness,heart,etc

What I'm trying to say is that in my opinion,a few of the very top players of today do a lot of these things better than Mosconi did.
Therefore, I'd have to assume that if they played Straightpool in a regular basis,because straight pool was to become the tournament and money game,they will most certaintly play as good or better than Mosconi did.

No doubt Mosconi was probably one of the greatest players who's ever played the game, but I don't think he was The best Straight Pool player.

There may be only a hand full of players in history that may have played the game better than he did, or that they would if they played it as much as he did.

People tends to forget something I believe truth,as explained in a book by Grady Matthews: -Mosconi won 9 out of his 15 World Titles by defeating only 1 player in a long Challenge Match type.And most of these opponents were american players. There wasn't really an international field,well not a field of players at all really..

Nowadays to become a world champion you need to beat the best players in the world from all the most dedicated pool countries in Asia and Europe.Usually a 128 Player field, sometimes bigger fields.

As for the high run record. I feel Thomas Engert's 491 on a regulation 9foot table is a lot stronger than Mosconi's 526 on an 8footer.


When it comes to concentration,mental toughness,shotmaking,creativity,safety game,kicking, and heart, I have no doubt that guys like Reyes ,Parica, Pagulayan ,Orcollo, and some of the very best european and taiwanese players could very easily play the game of Straight pool better than Mosconi did,if the game was in fashion and played in most of the major tournaments of today.

Shotmaking is a very important part of any pool discipline, and todays players definitely out shoot most of the legendary Caras,Mosconi, Crane and guys like that.

I played Orcollo once in a 14.1 tournament. Not only it was his first 14.1 tournament, the first round of that tournament was his very first 14.1 game
He played awful, worst patterns,etc.

Within a couple of matches into the tournament that somehow he happen to win, I drew him and he ran a crazy ugly but effective 90 and out on me.

Next day Last 16 redrew and I redrew him

Mika showed him just a couple of things about break shots the night before, and Orcollo went on to ran the most perfect and sickest 141 and out I've ever seen. Disecting the racks by opening just a few balls at a time, and never letting any balls go to the other half of the table.
His first 2 days playing the game he ran a 90 and a 141,not too bad. Talk about talent.

He didn't win the tournament but he proved to me he could beat any 14.1 legend anytime if he only played the game every day. I m indeed convinced he would beat any human of any period of time. I believe he would be favorite in the long run

And a lot of this same opinion has been said about Reyes when he was at his best

A better pool player. Meaning a better ball pocketer, with better speed control and of course heart and mental toughness,eventually will dominate at any game.

If I feel some of the best filipinos or taiwaneses or even european are better players than Mosconi was, I have to think that given the chance, they could have played the game of Starightpool as good or possibly better than Mosconi did

 

[book collector]

Yes, I knew George, back when my sister and mother-in-law lived in Dayton for several years, not to mention the numerous times I flew out there from the Pentagon to visit Wright-Pat (at ease, Blue Hog

George and I talked numerous times about Mosconi up on the raised tier by the bar at Airway. I also got the chance to play numerous guys there, including Steve Cook and Jason Miller, and was always to happy to say hello to Tim. It was a great action room where you could always get a game of cheap 1pocket.

So, are you saying that George said Mosconi preferred to play on an 8 footer everywhere, or just at the the room in Springfield?

Lou Figueroa

Tim I don't know , Todd Recher is an owner of Airway and a good friend.
He was also a great friend of Georges, and I believe knows more about George than anyone, he did a biography of George that was a wonderful tribute to him and his life.
It was left with one of the members here by someone who ripped George off right before he died, I told them I thought it should be returned to Todd since he had done all the work and the person had no real claim to it.
Never heard from him again.
Georges words to me, were that Mosconi played on a 4x8 whenever he got the chance in his exhibitions, because he thought it was better for his performance.
PD Cue knew George well also, so I would say if he says George mentioned the slipstroke then that was the case.
I do not remember that in our conversation about Mosconi, {I could have easily forgotten} but I do about Jimmy Moore.

 

[Mr. Bond]

This thread has me wondering if there were any pool halls with tight pockets in the 4 1/2 inch genre back in the Mosconi era? I grew up playing straight pool in the 60's and never saw pockets under 5 inches that I can remember. I played at Marie's Golden Cue with Joe Gold recently on a table he paid to have rebuilt for straight pool and the pockets are 5 inches. I just don't think you can compare high record runs unless they are played on the same exact sized tables with the same pocket sizes. Then you add in to that mix the depth of the shelf of the Diamonds today and the shelf of the Brunswick tables of his era and it gets even more difficult to compare. In todays era we see lots of tables tightened up for the games that are popular today with deeper shelves, these tables are not designed for straight pool. IMO..

Just some extra info to feed the flames...

- The 10 foot table was standard for (pro) competition until 1949.

-In the 1923-24 season the standards agreed to for pocket billiard tournaments were as follows :

" all games shall be played with 2-5/16 Empire compo-ivory balls, upon a 5x10 Brunswick-Balke-Collender company table, with 4-1/2 inch pocket openings at the corners and 4-3/4 inch pocket openings on the side. Same shall be furnished with 1845 match cushions and Brunswick special imported tournament cloth. "

So basically, that whole myth of playing on "easy tables" back in the day is a buncha bulldung.

 

[book collector]

Just some extra info to feed the flames...

- The 10 foot table was standard for (pro) competition until 1949.

-In the 1923-24 season the standards agreed to for pocket billiard tournaments were as follows :

" all games shall be played with 2-5/16 Empire compo-ivory balls, upon a 5x10 Brunswick-Balke-Collender company table, with 4-1/2 inch pocket openings at the corners and 4-3/4 inch pocket openings on the side. Same shall be furnished with 1845 match cushions and Brunswick special imported tournament cloth. "

So basically, that whole myth of playing on "easy tables" back in the day is a buncha bulldung.

Nothing easy about them , the cloth was like playing on a blanket.

 

[cueman]

A point that needs to be made is that the 4 x 8 tables of time past were bigger than the home 8 foot tables of today. They were close to full 8 foot. Just several inches smaller than the 9 footers. Also the cloth played on back then was much slower than the fast stuff played on today.

 

[pdcue]

Tim I don't know , Todd Recher is an owner of Airway and a good friend.
He was also a great friend of Georges, and I believe knows more about George than anyone, he did a biography of George that was a wonderful tribute to him and his life.
It was left with one of the members here by someone who ripped George off right before he died, I told them I thought it should be returned to Todd since he had done all the work and the person had no real claim to it.
Never heard from him again.
Georges words to me, were that Mosconi played on a 4x8 whenever he got the chance in his exhibitions, because he thought it was better for his performance.
PD Cue knew George well also, so I would say if he says George mentioned the slipstroke then that was the case.
I do not remember that in our conversation about Mosconi, {I could have easily forgotten} but I do about Jimmy Moore.

Sorry book... the slipstroke comment was an inside joke for Lou.

As for George, he rated Mosconi as the best Straight Pool player, but not the best
all around.

As for the table - I had a good conversation with a Springfield player who was a young
teen at the time. He became quite good eventually, def shortstop speed plus a little.

He explained East High had an excellent 4 1/2 x 9, the 'player's' table for the room.
But, it was an A. E. Schmidt. Mosconi was contractually required to play on a
Brunswick IF a room had any. There were a few Brunswicks, all 4 x 8s.

He explained the table was not a pushover by any means - tighter pocket and deeper
shelf than the Gold Crowns that swept America during the boom ignited by
"The Hustler". He played more than a few road players on those tables - no one ran
out like a racehorse on them.

 

[book collector]

Sorry book... the slipstroke comment was an inside joke for Lou.

As for George, he rated Mosconi as the best Straight Pool player, but not the best
all around.

As for the table - I had a good conversation with a Springfield player who was a young
teen at the time. He became quite good eventually, def shortstop speed plus a little.

He explained East High had an excellent 4 1/2 x 9, the 'player's' table for the room.
But, it was an A. E. Schmidt. Mosconi was contractually required to play on a
Brunswick IF a room had any. There were a few Brunswicks, all 4 x 8s.

He explained the table was not a pushover by any means - tighter pocket and deeper
shelf than the Gold Crowns that swept America during the boom ignited by
"The Hustler". He played more than a few road players on those tables - no one ran
out like a racehorse on them.

Was it you that I asked when the 9 foot Brunswicks were installed ?
I believe George and Russ put them in when they bought the place a few years later. Those tables are now in the poolroom on the East side of Columbus where I go . They have had an exciting life!
Now that you mention the AE Schmidt table I think Charlie J. told me about that also.
Of course Mosconi was not required or even allowed to play on that, so it is moot.

 

[pt109]

Just some extra info to feed the flames...

- The 10 foot table was standard for (pro) competition until 1949.

-In the 1923-24 season the standards agreed to for pocket billiard tournaments were as follows :

" all games shall be played with 2-5/16 Empire compo-ivory balls, upon a 5x10 Brunswick-Balke-Collender company table, with 4-1/2 inch pocket openings at the corners and 4-3/4 inch pocket openings on the side. Same shall be furnished with 1845 match cushions and Brunswick special imported tournament cloth. "

So basically, that whole myth of playing on "easy tables" back in the day is a buncha bulldung.

I'm glad you cleared this up for me, Mr Bond.

I played on quite a few 5x10s when I was a kid...and I thought many
of them were 4.5 inch pockets....but I wasn't as interested in specific
measurements then..I wasn't too smart, but I thought ALL tables leaked.
At the urging of Russ Maddox, I went to play on the Mosconi table in
Springfield....that 4x8 felt like a normal Gold Crown.

I did play on some old Brunswick 9-footers that had 5.5 inch pockets
with the slate filed away besides ( mostly Southern Mid West )...
...but those were customized by the locals.
I played on several old 9-footers that were 4.5 inch also....
....but the slate fall wasn't as deep as some of the ones today.

 

[lfigueroa]

What George actually said was Mosconi preferred to play on a 4 x 8 because
he could use his full SLIPSTROKE.

Dale(slip sliding away...)

lol.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I understand it's never accurate to compare players from different eras, but to me, to say Mosconi was the best ever isn't accurate neither.

Pool and ability in pool in my opinion is easy to clock.
All you have to do is judge a player's speed,cue ball control,shotmaking,creativity,and then mental toughness,heart,etc

What I'm trying to say is that in my opinion,a few of the very top players of today do a lot of these things better than Mosconi did.
Therefore, I'd have to assume that if they played Straightpool in a regular basis,because straight pool was to become the tournament and money game,they will most certaintly play as good or better than Mosconi did.

No doubt Mosconi was probably one of the greatest players who's ever played the game, but I don't think he was The best Straight Pool player.

There may be only a hand full of players in history that may have played the game better than he did, or that they would if they played it as much as he did.

People tends to forget something I believe truth,as explained in a book by Grady Matthews: -Mosconi won 9 out of his 15 World Titles by defeating only 1 player in a long Challenge Match type.And most of these opponents were american players. There wasn't really an international field,well not a field of players at all really..

Nowadays to become a world champion you need to beat the best players in the world from all the most dedicated pool countries in Asia and Europe.Usually a 128 Player field, sometimes bigger fields.

As for the high run record. I feel Thomas Engert's 491 on a regulation 9foot table is a lot stronger than Mosconi's 526 on an 8footer.


When it comes to concentration,mental toughness,shotmaking,creativity,safety game,kicking, and heart, I have no doubt that guys like Reyes ,Parica, Pagulayan ,Orcollo, and some of the very best european and taiwanese players could very easily play the game of Straight pool better than Mosconi did,if the game was in fashion and played in most of the major tournaments of today.

Shotmaking is a very important part of any pool discipline, and todays players definitely out shoot most of the legendary Caras,Mosconi, Crane and guys like that.

I played Orcollo once in a 14.1 tournament. Not only it was his first 14.1 tournament, the first round of that tournament was his very first 14.1 game
He played awful, worst patterns,etc.

Within a couple of matches into the tournament that somehow he happen to win, I drew him and he ran a crazy ugly but effective 90 and out on me.

Next day Last 16 redrew and I redrew him

Mika showed him just a couple of things about break shots the night before, and Orcollo went on to ran the most perfect and sickest 141 and out I've ever seen. Disecting the racks by opening just a few balls at a time, and never letting any balls go to the other half of the table.
His first 2 days playing the game he ran a 90 and a 141,not too bad. Talk about talent.

He didn't win the tournament but he proved to me he could beat any 14.1 legend anytime if he only played the game every day. I m indeed convinced he would beat any human of any period of time. I believe he would be favorite in the long run

And a lot of this same opinion has been said about Reyes when he was at his best

A better pool player. Meaning a better ball pocketer, with better speed control and of course heart and mental toughness,eventually will dominate at any game.

If I feel some of the best filipinos or taiwaneses or even european are better players than Mosconi was, I have to think that given the chance, they could have played the game of Starightpool as good or possibly better than Mosconi did

All I can say is that I've watched many of these guys shoot 14.1, including Efren, and watching them run balls is like reading a murder mystery. Every few racks you're wondering: how's he going to get out of this?!

Mosconi made it look e-a-s-y. It's like he never got in trouble during a run, never had to shoot a bank shot, never had to move the CB more than few inches this way or that. So if you consider that runs are all about staying out of trouble and controlling the balls, Mosconi was in a class by himself.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Tim I don't know , Todd Recher is an owner of Airway and a good friend.
He was also a great friend of Georges, and I believe knows more about George than anyone, he did a biography of George that was a wonderful tribute to him and his life.
It was left with one of the members here by someone who ripped George off right before he died, I told them I thought it should be returned to Todd since he had done all the work and the person had no real claim to it.
Never heard from him again.
Georges words to me, were that Mosconi played on a 4x8 whenever he got the chance in his exhibitions, because he thought it was better for his performance.
PD Cue knew George well also, so I would say if he says George mentioned the slipstroke then that was the case.
I do not remember that in our conversation about Mosconi, {I could have easily forgotten} but I do about Jimmy Moore.

Tim was a regular at Airway I'd see there and at the US 1Pocket Open occasionally.

I guess the comment about 4x8's makes sense, though I doubt he got to play on many of them. There were probably more 5x10's around than 4x8's.

Lou Figueroa

 

[pdcue]

I'm glad you cleared this up for me, Mr Bond.

I played on quite a few 5x10s when I was a kid...and I thought many
of them were 4.5 inch pockets....but I wasn't as interested in specific
measurements then..I wasn't too smart, but I thought ALL tables leaked.
At the urging of Russ Maddox, I went to play on the Mosconi table in
Springfield....that 4x8 felt like a normal Gold Crown.

I did play on some old Brunswick 9-footers that had 5.5 inch pockets
with the slate filed away besides ( mostly Southern Mid West )...
...but those were customized by the locals.
I played on several old 9-footers that were 4.5 inch also....
....but the slate fall wasn't as deep as some of the ones today.

Speaking of the 4 x 8 table.

Not that I was there personally, but back in the 30s - 50s, Mosconi's heyday,
every little burg in America with a population of 150 or more had a poolroom.
A fair sized city might have a dozen. Most were 2 - 3 table rooms with a pinball machine.
The overwhelming majority of the tables were 4 x 8s - that is real 4 x 8, not the 44 x 88
'home table" that evolved(devolved actually) after "The Hustler". Willie spent years
on the road doing exhibitions in all kinds of rooms, big little, medium.

FWIW - I was surprised when I first learned East High had a 4 1/2 x 9, but they had
one out of 12(?) or so tables.

Also Mr pt109, You might be old enough to remember... All this talk about slow cloth.
I played in a room in the late 60s where some of the better players had been playing
20+ years. They told me the cloth used in that room was the same as had been used
since at least the early 1950s, it was Stevens 100% wool(unbacked) and it was miles
faster than today's Simonis 860.

Did you ever encounter any in your travels? I know Fatboy remembered it from
the 80s(?).

Dale

 

[pt109]

Speaking of the 4 x 8 table.

Not that I was there personally, but back in the 30s - 50s, Mosconi's heyday,
every little burg in America with a population of 150 or more had a poolroom.
A fair sized city might have a dozen. Most were 2 - 3 table rooms with a pinball machine.
The overwhelming majority of the tables were 4 x 8s - that is real 4 x 8, not the 44 x 88
'home table" that evolved(devolved actually) after "The Hustler". Willie spent years
on the road doing exhibitions in all kinds of rooms, big little, medium.

FWIW - I was surprised when I first learned East High had a 4 1/2 x 9, but they had
one out of 12(?) or so tables.

Also Mr pt109, You might be old enough to remember... All this talk about slow cloth.
I played in a room in the late 60s where some of the better players had been playing
20+ years. They told me the cloth used in that room was the same as had been used
since at least the early 1950s, it was Stevens 100% wool(unbacked) and it was miles
faster than today's Simonis 860.

Did you ever encounter any in your travels? I know Fatboy remembered it from
the 80s(?).

Dale

Yeah, Dale, I played on lots of Stevens....Buddy Hall liked it, he said
the balls cut properly on Stevens.....most good rooms had fast cloth.
Played in Bakers in Tampa, late 60s, on a 9-foot with carom cloth...
...whitey would spin forever on that stuff.
Played 5x10 snooker in Decatur IL on carom cloth also...the straightest
table I ever played on.
The famous Rack in Detroit, when Gil Elias owned it, always had cloth
faster than 760 Simonis...I think it was Granito.

The players that say they yearn for the old slow cloth, I think they
must have been playing in rooms and bars that I would not give my
business to.
They strike me as the equivalent of golfers who played on 'cow pastures'
and wouldn't care if the greens got mowed regularly.

I played in a lot of great rooms, on clean, fast cloth.