The Wisdom Of Larry Hubbart

[Paul Schofield]

I'm more interested in hearing the specifics of how your 8 ball tournament has shown improvement and what it was like before you made the change.

Here they are:

1. Call nothing
2. No short games
3. Use No Conflict Rules
4. Three hour tournament

Other things I have done in the past and I am also doing: calcutta, Nine-Ball break-and-run jackpot.

Over all the years, every weekly tournament that I have tried has started out well but within 3 or 4 weeks they fall flat.

 

[Lonestar_jim]

His room sells blue cheese jalapeno chili sliders? Why didn't he mention that in the first post?

I'm there with my hat on sideways and some sag in my bluejeans.

This could bring crazy eights back to the top of card games.

Do I still get to break or just dump the tray on the table? I like to break especially when I'm not punished for making a bad break.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Seriously though 1% slop outcome win percentage ? I play bangers. I would think 5-8% is accurate for APA league.

Take a pencil and clipboard to it and you would be surprised how infrequent and insignificant it really is, even with bangers. It just seems big when it happens.

It is not slopping balls that is a big deal. It is calling balls that is so limiting and a nuisance. Running Eight-Ball tournaments with Nine-Ball rules has been good so far.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Here they are:

1. Call nothing
2. No short games
3. Use No Conflict Rules
4. Three hour tournament

Other things I have done in the past and I am also doing: calcutta, Nine-Ball break-and-run jackpot.

Over all the years, every weekly tournament that I have tried has started out well but within 3 or 4 weeks they fall flat.

Paul, that's not what I'm asking. You simply listed the policy of your events. You started off by saying players are enjoying it more. What I want to know is specifically what support you have to back up this vague statement besides some anecdotal comments from a few players and your "observations". Just because you hear more hooping and hollering every time someone slops in a ball doesn't mean players are enjoying it more. All the hoopla overshadows the fact that for every player who seems to be having more fun there is an opponent sitting quietly in his chair having less fun.

Are players gladly paying higher green fees and accepting lower payouts because it is so much more fun? Are the payout structures different? Is the wait staff getting better tips? Are bar and food receipts up? Are the fields bigger (besides with APA player entries that are playing now because you are playing by their rules)?

And how does this compare to the way it was before?

 

[Paul Schofield]

You started off by saying players are enjoying it more. What I want to know is specifically what support you have to back up this vague statement besides some anecdotal comments from a few players and your "observations".

Players return.

Just because you hear more hooping and hollering every time someone slops in a ball doesn't mean players are enjoying it more.

No hooping & hollering. Slopped ball is rare and insignificant.

All the hoopla overshadows the fact that for every player who seems to be having more fun there is an opponent sitting quietly in his chair having less fun.

I don't see that.

Are players gladly paying higher green fees and accepting lower payouts because it is so much more fun?

I always give a fair shake. Always did.

Are the payout structures different?

No.

Is the wait staff getting better tips?

These are pool players.

Are bar and food receipts up?

No.

Are the fields bigger (besides with APA player entries that are playing now because you are playing by their rules)?

There is no APA around here.

And how does this compare to the way it was before?

Numbers are up.

 

[Push&Pool]

Take a pencil and clipboard to it and you would be surprised how infrequent and insignificant it really is, even with bangers. It just seems big when it happens.

It is not slopping balls that is a big deal. It is calling balls that is so limiting and a nuisance. Running Eight-Ball tournaments with Nine-Ball rules has been good so far.

Are we talking about 7 or 9 footers here? Lucky shots happen a little less on bigger tables. But on bar boxes luck has always been huge factor. I"ve been playing different bangers for years and I'm a banger myself, so I have the right to say that in banger matches slops are win determining. I literally won hundreds of my games by getting multiple slops. I had games where I had more slops than actual intentional shots. I lost to others because they slopped. There's just no way you can say slops are insignificant in average games.

 

[Lonestar_jim]

My buddy and I were gambling a few days ago. He doubled the eight in to get position on the 9, he missed the 8 by 2 inches in the intended pocket. He regretted the slop and closed the set. I've done it to him before.

I wish you well in your business, but even a polished turd still is still feces. Maybe the bangers don't care and the better players never miss, but the slop is offensive to the C players...I don't want to win or lose that way. In certain friendly wagers the hill game was replayed from the break when it happened.

I don't want to be rewarded for a poor shot whether it be the break or otherwise.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Anyone can run a rack once they're "in line," however.........

You 'fixed' it your way by essentially eliminating the break as a shot.
No conflict breaking is like upending the ball tray onto the table and saying "you go first".

The rest of the world fixed it their way by improving rack technology to the point
where playing a specific ball became practical.
You could make the 10b break call shot and Shane would just shrug.

You keep trying to have it both ways by saying "call shot is dumb because it sucks excitement
and skill out of the game". OK, two can play at that game.

What is the one shot of the match the gets replayed EVERY TIME in televised events?
The break. It is unquestionably a source of excitement and tension and drama.
What is more exciting for spectators?
A predictable routine where the breaker shoots next regardless of anything? Not a chance.

Can you say honestly if you put no-conflict rules on TV vs. traditional rules,
the no-conflict would be more fun and exciting for the fans and spectators?
What about at pro level, ever see Orcullo play the ghost?

This is what it looks like when a good player doesn't care about making a ball on the break.
Are you riveted?

Yes, we'd make a complete joke out of the Know Conflict Rules.....it would be even more boring than watching the magic rack fiascos. Watching players run the rack is not that exciting, it's like watching boxers hit the bag....what is interesting is watching Champion players battle for the first shot.....this is more like boxing and MMA.

Anyone can run a rack once they're "in line," however not many players can beat a true Champion to the shot consistently because of the vast skill it takes. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CreeDo]

I am not being sarcastic or demeaning. In order for you to think this, you must not play pool or have been around this game long enough to understand the game.

Incorrect on both counts, but nevermind.

The break is a highly skilled part of the game. Keep what is skilled: give yourself a good rack, control the cue-ball, and get a good spread. Get rid of the REQUIRED luck: the ball on the break. Shoot what you rack and what you break. Get rewarded for a good break and punished for a bad one. Don't require luck. That makes a lot of sense.

OK. Shotmaking is a highly skilled part of the game.
Keep what is skilled - making the ball.
Get rid of the luck - missing but slopping it in.
Get rewarded for a good shot and punished for a bad one.
That makes a lot of sense, right?

I have challenged many a player to call a ball and a pocket on the break to prove to me that making a ball on the break is not a slop shot.

You challenge anyone I ever heard of to do this? Watch the US Open 8b championships.
Tell me it's coincidence when SVB and his opponents keep slotting those balls into the same side pocket
time after time.

 

[Paul Schofield]

My buddy and I were gambling a few days ago. He doubled the eight in to get position on the 9, he missed the 8 by 2 inches in the intended pocket. He regretted the slop and closed the set. I've done it to him before.

That is all well and good between two friends. That is also noble of your friend.

What if he missed the 8-ball by 2 inches and it kissed off the 9 and it went in the intended pocket? And at the same time what if the 9 went 2 rails, stopped, and lined up perfectly for an easy shot for a different pocket other than the one he was playing position for?

What if he missed the 8-ball by 2 inches and it went around the table 4 rails and into the intended pocket?

Kick two rails at a ball sitting out in the middle of the table and call a pocket (because you have to). If you make it, is it slop? If you flip a coin and call heads and it comes up heads, is it slop?

The logic for calling balls opens up the door for taking a hard look at the biggest luck factors of the game: lucky position, lucky leaves, lucky lay of the balls. This is where the overwelming amount of luck is. Rules should be simple and provide clarity. IMO placing importance on called balls is a distraction and is misguided.

 

[Paul Schofield]

.what is interesting is watching Champion players battle for the first shot.....this is more like boxing and MMA.

Will you please quit talking about it and just do it?! Sponsor, organize, and run a tournament with it. You and everyone else in the world need to find out if works.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Tell me it's coincidence when SVB and his opponents keep slotting those balls into the same side pocket
time after time.

Yes. This is a well practiced trick shot. Trick shots are dependent upon very precise hand manipulation of the balls and sometimes with the assistance of a gadget. Players should not be rewarded for that. It should be ignored.

 

[sfleinen]

That is all well and good between two friends. That is also noble of your friend.

What if he missed the 8-ball by 2 inches and it kissed off the 9 and it went in the intended pocket? And at the same time what if the 9 went 2 rails, stopped, and lined up perfectly for an easy shot for a different pocket other than the one he was playing position for?

What if he missed the 8-ball by 2 inches and it went around the table 4 rails and into the intended pocket?

Kick two rails at a ball sitting out in the middle of the table and call a pocket because you have to. If you make it, is it slop? If you flip a coin and call heads and it comes up heads, is it slop?

The logic for calling balls opens up the door for taking a hard look at the biggest luck factors of the game: lucky position, lucky leaves, lucky lay of the balls. This is where the overwelming amount of luck is. Rules should be simple and provide clarity. IMO placing importance on called balls is a distraction and is misguided.

Paul, what is your point here with this thread? You keep saying that you're "not selling anything," but look at your rapid-fire replies in this (and other) threads. You could fool me if all this is not an example of selling anything.

And, the very surgical way you pluck single sentences out of context (ignoring the rest of the post, which has the greater impactful point), just so you can exploit the weakness of that single sentence all on its lonesome? You're not doing your cause any justice with this "cherry picking" of sentences to reply to.

I mean, we get it -- you're all about the amateur, about making events (in your eyes) more welcoming, participatory, and fun. And yes, you are definitely "doing something about it" -- doing your piece to help grow our sport. Nobody can dismiss the fact you're actually someone in the industry who's at least "doing something."

But from the lion's share of the replies you're getting in this thread, it should be obvious to you that many folks have rejected your sales pitch. You're like the Watchtower guy that just won't stop ringing the doorbell and won't get off the doorstep.

Look, I go back to my argument that the human race -- these days -- have devolved into a species of extremists. It's either black or white; call everything (horsecrap bar rules) or call nothing. Pool is supposed to be a game of skill -- to demonstrate skill. Either we try to minimize luck, or accept it in all its forms, and the latter makes the game less about demonstrated skill and more about random happenings. What happened to knowing the meaning of the word, "moderation"?

Yes, not much can be done to legislate "all" luck out of pool, like the lucky leave. A couple tours have -- e.g. Tony Robles' Predator Open/Pro 10-ball, where a miss that results in a bad leave for the opponent, gives the opponent option to give the table back to the person who missed -- but obviously those rules have their detractors.

But what you're advocating is legislating all the demonstration of skill -- the "I called and meant that shot" -- out of the game completely. And as you can see from the volume of replies in this thread, it's a very unpopular notion. Some of us want to keep the demonstration of skill in the game. It is what makes pool unique from all other sports/games. Sports/games are supposed to have their unique identity -- not be photocopies of each other in their intent.

-Sean <-- fully expects his post to be Ginsu'ed by Paul into a single sentence or two dissection, with the overall meaning [intentionally] lost

 

[Mr. Bond]

Will you please quit talking about it and just do it?! Sponsor, organize, and run a tournament with it. You and everyone else in the world need to find out if works.

I'm fairly certain that "it" would "work" almost anywhere you can find a few bored people with a few extra dollars to spend and a few hours to kill. But do you really want the entire world to lower their standards of accuracy for the sake of concession sales?

What happens to the meaning of "world champion" when grandma has just as high of a "percentage" of winning it as a seasoned professional?

Seems to me that a 'world champion' title wouldn't mean a whole lot.

If it doesn't mean much, less people will want it, and less people will respect it.

If less people want it, less people will play .

 

[Paul Schofield]

What happens to the meaning of "world champion" when grandma has just as high of a "percentage" of winning it as a seasoned professional?

I know you are exagerating to make a point. Your perception is not reality. World championships in non-called shot games have repeatedlly produced the best player. I won't recite them. No time.

 

[Doc Holliday]

You can blast into them. Your chances of winning are not significantly better doing that than they are now. If I'm playing you that's exactly what I want you to do. I know the one time in 100 that you make something and manage to win the game will be offset by the next 99 times you don't. And if we're gambling I'll win a lot of cabbage while you keep trying to recreate the magic.

I'd be pretty happy to play someone on a bar table where the spot was I had to call every shot and they didn't. I'm not sure who would be spotting who though.

You are saying you would play another player of equal skill, you call every ball, he does not and you have the advantage?

 

[Push&Pool]

One guy said to me "What if a guy is on the 8 and he has no shot and he just slams the ball with the hope of it finding a pocket?"

I replied "Did you ever hear of the "Hail Mary Pass?" If it works for them, why not us?

Even when you do not have a shot, there is skill and knowlege needed to increase the probabilities of fluking a ball into a pocket. Today, if your opponant misses and leaves you no shot and no pocket, you have no way to win (or at least keep you turn at the table).

In these times when we have lost half of all our players, it is not a bad idea to question everything, look inward, and examine our games.

I agree on this one completely. Increasing probability is a skill of its own. I honestly hope you read a thread I'm soon going to post (still no internet on my laptop). It deals with weaker players, probabilities and no shot calling.

As we all agree, pool is losing players and we need to change something. To be honest, I think the future of pool lies in bangers, like it or not. If you think about it, it's getting quite clear. No shot calling games could take over, so if your concept works and you keep the players, I wish you all luck, I hope you expand your competitions and gain much more support. You have one supporter here

 

[sixpack]

You are saying you would play another player of equal skill, you call every ball, he does not and you have the advantage?

I think that there is no advantage. Or at least so little to be negligible.

I think someone roughly my skill level would probably burn themselves trying to slop a ball more than they would benefit from it that there is a high probability that it would work out to be a net disadvantage for them.

 

[Lonestar_jim]

Of course

I agree on this one completely. Increasing probability is a skill of its own. I honestly hope you read a thread I'm soon going to post (still no internet on my laptop). It deals with weaker players, probabilities and no shot calling.

As we all agree, pool is losing players and we need to change something. To be honest, I think the future of pool lies in bangers, like it or not. If you think about it, it's getting quite clear. No shot calling games could take over, so if your concept works and you keep the players, I wish you all luck, I hope you expand your competitions and gain much more support. You have one supporter here

Bangers are the future. We aren't born running a rack. We begin with pocketing balls. Then we look a shot ahead. We try to learn to move the cue ball around. English gets added. Defense becomes a necessity. We all start off on a liquid diet and progress to solid food. This is true in most endeavors. Funny how the first thing we learn is getting thrown out to facilitate running a tournament (faster) ?

Please chime in on this Paul. Does your no call shot make the tournaments run faster ?

I play call shot 8-ball, but "calling shots" only gets used when banking / kicking and other shots considered not obvious are involved. It has no affect on the speed of the game. If I run down to my last ball in my group and slop it in and continue to the 8, that will definitely speed up the game. I think the slop 8 - ball approach can hinder the weaker players advancement. I have no problem having a tournament that way for lower skilled players.

 

[CreeDo]

Yes. This is a well practiced trick shot. Trick shots are dependent upon very precise hand manipulation of the balls and sometimes with the assistance of a gadget. Players should not be rewarded for that. It should be ignored.

If all it requires is freezing up the balls right and a magic rack,
please explain to me why most players cannot make the shot?
Please explain to me why shane practices it for hours, if it's just wired and automatic?

With no 'manipulation' and no 'gadget':
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYkIP4U1hEc&noredirect=1

Youtube SVB 8 ball matches are somewhat rare, but the 10 ball rack is very similar.
We have PLENTY of video proof that the break is not luck.

SVB break #1: 2nd row ball, side pocket
SVB break #2: 2nd row ball, side pocket
SVB break #3: 2nd row ball, side pocket
SVB break #4: 2nd row ball is clearly heading but gets kissed out.
SVB break #5: 2nd row ball, side pocket
SVB break #6: 2nd row ball is clearly heading but gets kissed out.
SVB break #7: 2nd row ball misses by 2 inches.

Tell me again how it's all luck.
And explain why THIS type of "slop" is to be disparaged but other forms are to be praised?
Shane's "slop" took hours of dedication and practice. What does shitting in a ball require?

Pretty much the opposite - a lack of practice.
"Players should not be rewarded for that. It should be ignored."