They never saw the $$$$....

[jay helfert]

Gotta side somewhat with Jason here. I have run smaller local tournaments up to 48 players and really it is not that hugely hard to do a decent job. There is more then just writing down some names yes, you need to work out the payouts, make the draw, get the money from the players, explain to a couple players why you are not paying more then 1/4 of the field, explain to a few other players why you are paying 1/4 of the field, ref some shots, deal with the odd issue in a match, make sure the players know their start time and that if they don't show up on time they will in fact forfeit, ect...

And after it is all said and done it is worlds less work then I was doing when I was a supervising archaeologist working in Fort St. John in minus 25 degrees C removing snow from topographical features that have a high chance of cultural remains, using a cement saw to cut a 1X1 foot square in the frozen ground, pickaxing the frozen ground out and packing it into a individual labled sack so that we could take that soil back to the shop where it would then be thawed into a muddy mess that we could then go through screening to make sure there was no cultural remains. And we made one hell of alot less money then $50 an hour and required a university degree for the privilege of that job. I have worked 12-14 hour days on weekends where all my time was 1.5 and never came close to making $2000 over a weekend, I did not even make 1/4 of that.

If you think that $2500 is reasonable for the amount of work you put in as a tournament director over a weekend tournament I don't think you have any idea what alot of people do in their daily jobs to make their money, training/education they had to do in order to actually get that job, and the amount of actual work and stress that job actually entails.

A WEEKEND! DUH, the tournament lasted four days plus one extra day that was involved in the set-up. Each day was a 12-14 work day for me. I'm the first to arrive and the last to leave every day. And I came in early every morning (before breakfast) to make sure everything was in place for that day's activities. Total hours worked on this event were in excess of 60 hours, probably closer to 70. So my hourly rate comes to about $40/hour. By the way, I paid for my own plane fare to get there ($200).

I don't price myself based on an hourly rate anyway. I price based on the job, the importance of the event and what is expected of me. Like any other professional who takes pride in their work. Maybe some day when you've run over a 100 major tournaments, you will be paid accordingly too. Good luck to you.

P.S. I am paid far less when I do weekend events in local poolrooms, where I don't have to travel. Such as the one coming up at Hollywood Billiards on May 24-25.

 

[corvette1340]

A WEEKEND! DUH, the tournament lasted four days plus one extra day that was involved in the set-up. Each day was a 12-14 work day for me. I'm the first to arrive and the last to leave every day. And I came in early every morning (before breakfast) to make sure everything was in place for that day's activities. Total hours worked on this event were in excess of 60 hours, probably closer to 70. So my hourly rate comes to about $40/hour. By the way, I paid for my own plane fare to get there ($200).

I don't price myself based on an hourly rate anyway. I price based on the job, the importance of the event and what is expected of me. Like any other professional who takes pride in their work. Maybe some day when you've run over a 100 major tournaments, you will be paid accordingly too. Good luck to you.

P.S. I am paid far less when I do weekend events in local poolrooms, where I don't have to travel. Such as the one coming up at Hollywood Billiards on May 24-25.[/QUOTE]


such shameless plugging, lol. If I ever put on another tourney I will fly you to the East Coast and pay your asking price Jay.

 

[sixpack]

I put that Jay would be worth more than some based on what I have been reading on here about him. I am just curious as to why a TD would get so much compared to the prize money. I don't think TD for the PGA tour would make 4 th place prize money for the week of work and they are dealing with millions and a way bigger operation.

Most regular jobs on this earth have a value and a wage associated with it. Some people are opportunist and can make more than regular wage. These people build wealth. Most people can only better their wage by education and others going into harms way for a better paying job. From what I am reading here it is accepted and expected for TD to charge a great deal in relation to prize money. I would say that this is an opportunist.

If you posted a job position, TD required traveling USA running pro events for $40,000 year, you would get people applying. If you posted the same add for $104,000 year, you would have to hire someone to help give interviews. I would even take a course... Jay could hold it for $14,000, the price of college. I would pay it to make 100,000$+ a year.

No, but the PGA tournament director gets more than $2500 I bet.

Most wages are based on 40 hour weeks. People who work 40 hour weeks seem to be stuck in that thinking. People who get paid by the event have other costs to fact in that most wage-earners don't take into account.

I'll pick a different example. Wedding photography.

Some guys charge $300 and some guys charge $25,000+. Why on Earth would someone hire the $25K guy? Because it's worth it to them to get the job that the 25K guy charges. They are paying for his staff, his equipment, his experience, his artistic vision and the quality of products he delivers and top-notch customer service. Some people value all that and some don't. The ones that don't pay $300. They get poor quality, poor customer service and probably poor results, but they don't care because they don't know the difference.

Now you would look at both and say Hey, this guy's getting paid $300 for a day's work, that's $38 bucks an hour. That's pretty good! And that other guy, he's making $2500/hour, that's outrageous! But the guy getting 300/day does a wedding every weekend that's only $15,000 per year. Not so great. The guy charging $25K, he probably only does around 10 weddings a year for $250K. After paying his staff, keeping the lights on in his studio and cost of goods like albums etc...he probably only makes about what a decent engineer makes.

Back to Jay. When someone spends years and years building a reputation and learning a craft to become one of the best. They are not going to get on an airplane for less than $2500. If you ask me, given the reputation and credibility that Jay brings to an event, in any other field he would be paid AT LEAST triple per event.

One of the reasons people thought this event was solid was because they had Jay Helfert at the helm. Do you think all those players would have traveled across the country to play in a tournament if Jason from the block was running it? Maybe, maybe not. If you're the event coordinator, why take that chance.

Jay's reaction is in part because this (wrongly) damages the reputation that he's worked diligently over the course of decades to establish. He's rightfully very pissed off and he WILL get to the bottom of it. This determination and strength of character is EXACTLY why he gets the fees he gets.

If I'm putting together a tournament and I need credibility, I'm bringing Jay Helfert into the fold as early as possible. As a consultant, as an organizer, as a TD and especially as an independent auditor.

That's worth every penny he's paid and then some.

~rc

 

[av84fun]

From what I am reading here it is accepted and expected for TD to charge a great deal in relation to prize money. I would say that this is an opportunist.

The TD's compensation as a percentage of the prize money would go down if the prize money went up. It is the sad state of affairs that pro pool players have to play for the small purses available in this country today...which IN PART...is the player's fault.

They have been selling themselves too cheaply for YEARS and conditioning the market place to the fact that you can get TWO world champions to play in an IPT challenge match for a CHANCE to win a stinking five grand.

But what any TD is WORTH has NOTHING to do with the prize money. If Jay is a better negotiator than the players then that is to his credit and merely suggests the OBVIOUS...which is that at least the Top 50 players need to join forces and start their OWN tour organization.

They need to REFUSE to play in tournaments with prize money less than a certain figure and all agree not to gamble with any non-members.

They need to REFUSE to play in tournaments unless AT LEAST 50% of the total purse is POSTED IN ADVANCE with an escrow agent and unless 100%
of the money is in escrow BEFORE the first rack is broken with a requirement that the escrow agent pay out the up front 50% to each registered player, pro rata, if the 2nd 50% does not show up by match time.

But the above and LOTS of other Basic Business 101 discussions have taken place for a decade and the sad FACT is that the players just will not agree to ANYTHING.

I'm not ragging on the pros...I LOVE those guys but it is just frustrating to watch them "lone wolf" themselves into oblivion (in this country) because they seem to be in a perpetual contest to see who can underprice themselves the most. And that process has gotten so bad that it may almost be beyond repair for decades to come.

This Phoenix tournament is LIVING PROOF that fact. Phoenix is a city of over 3 MILLION people and a rather upscalse community but one that according to locals who post here is rather starved for top flight pro pool matches.

And yet vendor participation and audience attendance was so disappointing that the event didn't seem to come close to paying for itself.

And why SHOULD people pay to watch when they can watch those same pros in gambling matches before or after the tournament for free???

And what do they do when they get stiffed? Nothing. Just as they did nothing when KT stiffed them.

JAY is doing something but if I managed a top finisher, a lawsuit would already be filed and in civil fraud cases, the jury can award UNLIMITED punitive damages on top of actual damages.

Sorry for the rant...but the TRUTH is that pro pool players A) will not join together and B) sell themselves WAY too cheaply. So, while I DO sympathize with them...it is hard to do.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Jason Robichaud]

Thanks for the reply Jay. I believe this time hard work will be required for that TD money and I hope you get every penny. You have the respect of everyone here and I appreciate that you took the time to answer my question. I was just curious and now I know. Knowledge is a wonderful thing especially when you can make money from it.

 

[Johnnyt]

The TD's compensation as a percentage of the prize money would go down if the prize money went up. It is the sad state of affairs that pro pool players have to play for the small purses available in this country today...which IN PART...is the player's fault.

They have been selling themselves too cheaply for YEARS and conditioning the market place to the fact that you can get TWO world champions to play in an IPT challenge match for a CHANCE to win a stinking five grand.

But what any TD is WORTH has NOTHING to do with the prize money. If Jay is a better negotiator than the players then that is to his credit and merely suggests the OBVIOUS...which is that at least the Top 50 players need to join forces and start their OWN tour organization.

They need to REFUSE to play in tournaments with prize money less than a certain figure and all agree not to gamble with any non-members.

They need to REFUSE to play in tournaments unless AT LEAST 50% of the total purse is POSTED IN ADVANCE with an escrow agent and unless 100%
of the money is in escrow BEFORE the first rack is broken with a requirement that the escrow agent pay out the up front 50% to each registered player, pro rata, if the 2nd 50% does not show up by match time.

But the above and LOTS of other Basic Business 101 discussions have taken place for a decade and the sad FACT is that the players just will not agree to ANYTHING.

I'm not ragging on the pros...I LOVE those guys but it is just frustrating to watch them "lone wolf" themselves into oblivion (in this country) because they seem to be in a perpetual contest to see who can underprice themselves the most. And that process has gotten so bad that it may almost be beyond repair for decades to come.

This Phoenix tournament is LIVING PROOF that fact. Phoenix is a city of over 3 MILLION people and a rather upscalse community but one that according to locals who post here is rather starved for top flight pro pool matches.

And yet vendor participation and audience attendance was so disappointing that the event didn't seem to come close to paying for itself.

And why SHOULD people pay to watch when they can watch those same pros in gambling matches before or after the tournament for free???

And what do they do when they get stiffed? Nothing. Just as they did nothing when KT stiffed them.

JAY is doing something but if I managed a top finisher, a lawsuit would already be filed and in civil fraud cases, the jury can award UNLIMITED punitive damages on top of actual damages.

Sorry for the rant...but the TRUTH is that pro pool players A) will not join together and B) sell themselves WAY too cheaply. So, while I DO sympathize with them...it is hard to do.

Regards,
Jim

Great post Jim and right on IMO. Johnnyt

 

[justnum]

Effective communication is important. I hope that you find the right words to voice your concerns.

 

[ShootingArts]

Jim. do the math

Jim,

How much does the total group of fifty need to receive in total purses for the organization to be stable? How much does the fiftieth place money winner have to make to continue to follow the rules of not playing in tournaments that don't meet the organization's terms and to not gamble with outsiders? Expenses per tournament have to be juggled against how many tournaments can be played in a year. When you find out just how much each tournament will have to pay the numbers are staggering.

I'll let you crunch the numbers for yourself but remember the expenses involved to compete all over the country and the extra expenses involved in being an independent contractor or small businessman.

Hu

The TD's compensation as a percentage of the prize money would go down if the prize money went up. It is the sad state of affairs that pro pool players have to play for the small purses available in this country today...which IN PART...is the player's fault.

They have been selling themselves too cheaply for YEARS and conditioning the market place to the fact that you can get TWO world champions to play in an IPT challenge match for a CHANCE to win a stinking five grand.

But what any TD is WORTH has NOTHING to do with the prize money. If Jay is a better negotiator than the players then that is to his credit and merely suggests the OBVIOUS...which is that at least the Top 50 players need to join forces and start their OWN tour organization.

They need to REFUSE to play in tournaments with prize money less than a certain figure and all agree not to gamble with any non-members.

They need to REFUSE to play in tournaments unless AT LEAST 50% of the total purse is POSTED IN ADVANCE with an escrow agent and unless 100%
of the money is in escrow BEFORE the first rack is broken with a requirement that the escrow agent pay out the up front 50% to each registered player, pro rata, if the 2nd 50% does not show up by match time.

But the above and LOTS of other Basic Business 101 discussions have taken place for a decade and the sad FACT is that the players just will not agree to ANYTHING.

I'm not ragging on the pros...I LOVE those guys but it is just frustrating to watch them "lone wolf" themselves into oblivion (in this country) because they seem to be in a perpetual contest to see who can underprice themselves the most. And that process has gotten so bad that it may almost be beyond repair for decades to come.

This Phoenix tournament is LIVING PROOF that fact. Phoenix is a city of over 3 MILLION people and a rather upscalse community but one that according to locals who post here is rather starved for top flight pro pool matches.

And yet vendor participation and audience attendance was so disappointing that the event didn't seem to come close to paying for itself.

And why SHOULD people pay to watch when they can watch those same pros in gambling matches before or after the tournament for free???

And what do they do when they get stiffed? Nothing. Just as they did nothing when KT stiffed them.

JAY is doing something but if I managed a top finisher, a lawsuit would already be filed and in civil fraud cases, the jury can award UNLIMITED punitive damages on top of actual damages.

Sorry for the rant...but the TRUTH is that pro pool players A) will not join together and B) sell themselves WAY too cheaply. So, while I DO sympathize with them...it is hard to do.

Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

Jim,

How much does the total group of fifty need to receive in total purses for the organization to be stable? How much does the fiftieth place money winner have to make to continue to follow the rules of not playing in tournaments that don't meet the organization's terms and to not gamble with outsiders? Expenses per tournament have to be juggled against how many tournaments can be played in a year. When you find out just how much each tournament will have to pay the numbers are staggering.

I'll let you crunch the numbers for yourself but remember the expenses involved to compete all over the country and the extra expenses involved in being an independent contractor or small businessman.

Hu

Actually, I've done the math Hu. I was asked by a board member of a very stable professional pool tour to comment on just this very issue.

I won't get into the numbers here because I am not being paid to do so but here is the fundamental response to your question.

Under the rules of most similar sports tour/tournament sanctioning bodies, players are not permitted to perform outside the "tour/league" without permission from their governing body/team ownership.

As for the players on the low end of the money winning standings, they toe the line because they wish to retain their membership in the tour/league.

There are LOTS of PGA touring pros, for example who don't make a living on the tour after expenses but they obey the rules because they want to keep their cards in hopes of improving their games to the extent that they CAN make a living.

I could...but mercifully will not...go on for quite a number of pages on this subject but two things are irrefutable and self-evident.

1. The utter disarray in which men's pro pool finds itself today is NOT working.

2. There is no major tour/league sport that IS working (as that phrase would be commonly defined) that does NOT have a strong league/tour governing body.

I am a businessman and it just SHOCKS my sensibilities to witness a scenario with respect to which there are NUMEROUS highly successful models...all with a common underpinning theme...but which are being utterly ignored.

And NOT for the purpose of trying some novel new model for success but to have NO MODEL AT ALL!

The opposite of "If it ain't broke don't fix it"...is equally true.

And if anyone were to suggest in public, the notion that if it IS broke..."Just leave it alone and hope for the best"...would have been stoned to death in earlier societies and that would not be such a bad idea today...and yet that is EXACTLY what today's state of affairs is.

Finally...just a hint about the math...

REAL PRO TOUR

1. 10 events.
2. $25k first place scaling down to $5k for 10th place.
3. $2,500 average for places 11-50 =
4. Total purse of about $220k =
5. $2.2 million per season.
6. 5 seasons guaranteed = $11 million +
7. $9 million administrative/marketing expenses over 5 years =
8. $20 million MINIMUM start-up capital required.

GOAL

Prime time (weekend daytime sports) LIVE...repeat LIVE*** broadcasts on national cable with one or two "majors" likely getting network coverage.

***TV ratings are generally RUINED by tape-delay broadcasts when the event winners are already known worldwide.

Would it work? Who knows?

CAN it work?

Ask those poor dumb cowboys who, in 1992 thought they could compete against the Pro Rodeo Cowboy's Association that was founded in 1936. Those po boys founded the PBR which has become one of the most successful pro sports organizations on the planet.

And oh, by the way...the PRCA itself was founded by a bunch of pissed off cowboys who didn't like the way the sport was being promoted!!

Sound familiar!!! (-:

The DIFFERENCE being that TWICE some poor dumb cowboys GOT OFF THEIR POOR DUMB ASSES AND DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is it GOING to happen?

Fat chance.



Regards,
Jim

 

[JAM]

I put that Jay would be worth more than some based on what I have been reading on here about him. I am just curious as to why a TD would get so much compared to the prize money. I don't think TD for the PGA tour would make 4 th place prize money for the week of work and they are dealing with millions and a way bigger operation.

Most regular jobs on this earth have a value and a wage associated with it. Some people are opportunist and can make more than regular wage. These people build wealth. Most people can only better their wage by education and others going into harms way for a better paying job. From what I am reading here it is accepted and expected for TD to charge a great deal in relation to prize money. I would say that this is an opportunist.

If you posted a job position, TD required traveling USA running pro events for $40,000 year, you would get people applying. If you posted the same add for $104,000 year, you would have to hire someone to help give interviews. I would even take a course... Jay could hold it for $14,000, the price of college. I would pay it to make 100,000$+ a year.

What I don't think you realize is that the TD incurs the exact same expenses as the pool player competing in the tournament.

The average pool player who competes every month of the year may make $50,000 in winnings, if they are lucky and win every now and then. The expenses for winning that $50,000 would be around $40,000 in today's market. So the pool player nets $10,000 a year. I know this from personal experience.

Of course, the expenses could have been less if we could sleep with four other pool players in our room, eat at McDonald's for all meals, drive all night long to the tournament to save the first night of hotel expenses, and then check out early and sleep in a hotel lobby or my car for the last day of the event. Some players will sleep on the floor or in their car, but me and mine are too old to do that.

If the entry fee is too hefty, like the $5,000 entry fee for the Skins tournament or even the $500 for the U.S. Open (which just went up to $600 this year), you can get a stakehorse to pay your entry fee and expenses, but if you win one penny, all expenses usually come off the top. Maybe you can win enough to walk away with monies after you split it with the stakehorse. I know that some stakehorses get funny when they're counting that money.

It is the same with a TD. If a TD makes $2,000 per event, the expenses come out of that 2 times. The U.S. Open, as one example, is a week-long tournament. It costs about $2,500 for me and mine to attend the U.S. Open. The hotel is over a thousand a week, and then you have food and other expenses that always come up when you're on the road.

Have you ever been to a regional tour tournament that was poorly run? I have, and it sucks when the TD does not know what they are doing. The only way to acquire the knowledge and skills set needed to be a TD comes from experience. Each tournament is different and comes with a variety of problems. You have to have the know-how to solve these problems on the spot.

The TD, by the way, has to be in the tournament room early in the morning, before the players arrive. He also has to be there when the last ball drops and cleans up after the players leave. These are very long days. In the case of the U.S. Open, it could be from 8:00 a.m. to midnight, as one example.

My point is that if a TD made $100,000 a year, I would bet the expenses could be close to $75,000 a year, depending on where the event is held. Airplane fares, gas in automobiles, cab rides, hotels, tips, food are some of the expenses that eat up that 100 grand.

Some may have no idea how expensive it is in the year 2008 to be in the pool industry. With gas being what it is today, it is definitely expensive to travel to pool tournaments if you drive.

Whether you're a TD, a pool player, a vendor, or an indepedent promoter, nobody's getting fat except maybe Allen Hopkins!

JAM

 

[Dagwoodz]

I'm just saying some people out there are doing way harder work in a lot more stressful situation for a lot less. I don't think the Troops in Iraq would make $2000 a weekend or even a week.

Actually, for someone with a little bit of time in, single, if they're deployed, tack $1000 on to that and make it over a period of a month and you'd be about right.

 

[ShootingArts]

a few differences

Jim,

According to my math, you would have half of your 50 players surviving after paying expenses. The other half have to go out and get jobs making it impossible to compete in ten events a year on a tour. In reality the money would split with less than a dozen players taking well over half of the money, probably over 75%, leaving very little for the rest of the field. However, ignoring that, where is even 2.2 million a year plus expenses coming from or your $20,000,000 minimum start up costs? Cut that in half, where is ten million coming from?

I know a wee bit about rodeo having attended hundreds and been on the backside of dozens if not hundreds. My wife was a barrel racer, my son a bullfighter. They had maybe the most exciting eight seconds in sports to offer, something that plays great on TV. They still had to strip rodeo down to just bull riding to get their toes in the door. Now people have enough interest in rodeo that they can show most of a rodeo now and then, in a very compressed version. A big part of the appeal is the danger. How dangerous is a pool tournament?

That is the real issue with pool, we haven't been able to find something the public wants to buy. In most sports, the better a competitor is the more exciting it is to the viewer. In pool, the better the competitor is the more boring it is to the average home viewer. The player shoots an easy shot, the cue ball "happens to roll" so that he has another easy shot. The average banger can and has pocketed most of the balls that they see pocketed by the pro's, these guys are only a little better than them, boring!!

Your tenth place guy makes fifty thousand a year raw gross. $10K expenses is pretty conservative. Another near ten percent more than a wage slave pays goes to self-employment taxes. Your tenth place finisher is scraping by if he has a two family income or is single. How long are you going to keep the competitors around that are below that at an annual average income of less than $14K? In round numbers the fiftieth placed PGA golfer made a million gross last year, the 200th placed one made $112K. Pool isn't golf but that is what it takes to keep a player on the road. Roughly seventy-five percent of the people on your tour need to net at least $30K a year take home for it to have any chance of being sustainable.

Hu

Actually, I've done the math Hu. I was asked by a board member of a very stable professional pool tour to comment on just this very issue.

I won't get into the numbers here because I am not being paid to do so but here is the fundamental response to your question.

Under the rules of most similar sports tour/tournament sanctioning bodies, players are not permitted to perform outside the "tour/league" without permission from their governing body/team ownership.

As for the players on the low end of the money winning standings, they toe the line because they wish to retain their membership in the tour/league.

There are LOTS of PGA touring pros, for example who don't make a living on the tour after expenses but they obey the rules because they want to keep their cards in hopes of improving their games to the extent that they CAN make a living.

I could...but mercifully will not...go on for quite a number of pages on this subject but two things are irrefutable and self-evident.

1. The utter disarray in which men's pro pool finds itself today is NOT working.

2. There is no major tour/league sport that IS working (as that phrase would be commonly defined) that does NOT have a strong league/tour governing body.

I am a businessman and it just SHOCKS my sensibilities to witness a scenario with respect to which there are NUMEROUS highly successful models...all with a common underpinning theme...but which are being utterly ignored.

And NOT for the purpose of trying some novel new model for success but to have NO MODEL AT ALL!

The opposite of "If it ain't broke don't fix it"...is equally true.

And if anyone were to suggest in public, the notion that if it IS broke..."Just leave it alone and hope for the best"...would have been stoned to death in earlier societies and that would not be such a bad idea today...and yet that is EXACTLY what today's state of affairs is.

Finally...just a hint about the math...

REAL PRO TOUR

1. 10 events.
2. $25k first place scaling down to $5k for 10th place.
3. $2,500 average for places 11-50 =
4. Total purse of about $220k =
5. $2.2 million per season.
6. 5 seasons guaranteed = $11 million +
7. $9 million administrative/marketing expenses over 5 years =
8. $20 million MINIMUM start-up capital required.

GOAL

Prime time (weekend daytime sports) LIVE...repeat LIVE*** broadcasts on national cable with one or two "majors" likely getting network coverage.

***TV ratings are generally RUINED by tape-delay broadcasts when the event winners are already known worldwide.

Would it work? Who knows?

CAN it work?

Ask those poor dumb cowboys who, in 1992 thought they could compete against the Pro Rodeo Cowboy's Association that was founded in 1936. Those po boys founded the PBR which has become one of the most successful pro sports organizations on the planet.

And oh, by the way...the PRCA itself was founded by a bunch of pissed off cowboys who didn't like the way the sport was being promoted!!

Sound familiar!!! (-:

The DIFFERENCE being that TWICE some poor dumb cowboys GOT OFF THEIR POOR DUMB ASSES AND DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is it GOING to happen?

Fat chance.



Regards,
Jim

 

[ironman]

Actually, for someone with a little bit of time in, single, if they're deployed, tack $1000 on to that and make it over a period of a month and you'd be about right.

Not to mimimize the work or importance of our troops, but everytime one these comes up I'm reminded of Tommy Boy. "You should have an office window, you've been here 10 minutes"!

 

[NateSchoepf]

I have to say it,
Jam
You are an idiot
He can never make it right, even if he pays the players what is owed that doesnt make it right, right would have been paying the players on time.
No, I don't think he should be given a break or given some slack.
Why are you so easy on the guy, cause he's old? Give me a break.
What the hell is wrong with some people.

 

[corvette1340]

I have to say it,
Jam
You are an idiot
He can never make it right, even if he pays the players what is owed that doesnt make it right, right would have been paying the players on time.
No, I don't think he should be given a break or given some slack.
Why are you so easy on the guy, cause he's old? Give me a break.
What the hell is wrong with some people.

lmao, gold sir, pure gold.

 

[JAM]

I have to say it,
Jam
You are an idiot
He can never make it right, even if he pays the players what is owed that doesnt make it right, right would have been paying the players on time.
No, I don't think he should be given a break or given some slack.
Why are you so easy on the guy, cause he's old? Give me a break.
What the hell is wrong with some people.

Did you just call me an "idiot"?

Please read the forum rules in the sticky thread of the Main Forum.

You are entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to call me an "idiot."

JAM

 

[JAM]

lmao, gold sir, pure gold.

Jump on in, Corvette. This is what you thrive on here. God forbid, you post something about pool.

JAM

 

[corvette1340]

lol, I've got this JAM character on ignore and she still gives me bad rep every chance she gets. Grow up and get a life.

 

[JAM]

lol, I've got this JAM character on ignore and she still gives me bad rep every chance she gets. Grow up and get a life.

You must check your rep 24/7. How quickly you discovered the red rep, in less than 60 seconds after I gave it. Maybe it is you that should grow up and get a life. Go stuff your beak with a fast-food hamburger and play Internet poker, you know, what you do every day between 9:00 and 5:00, your job. Most people have skills and can obtain "real" jobs.

JAM

 

[ShootingArts]

track record

I have to say it,
Jam
You are an idiot
He can never make it right, even if he pays the players what is owed that doesnt make it right, right would have been paying the players on time.
No, I don't think he should be given a break or given some slack.
Why are you so easy on the guy, cause he's old? Give me a break.
What the hell is wrong with some people.

Nate,

Apparently you have missed that this guy has a track record behind him of supporting pool and doing right. When someone does something like this first jump out of the box, he is 100% in error and you lynch him. When someone has many good dealings and then does something like this then you have to consider the possibility that it is a good guy that made a bad blunder. Some folks dig themselves in still deeper not being willing to cut their losses. I suspect he has been scrambling like hell to cover the checks since before he wrote them. Chuck knew the consequences of writing bad checks and wrote them anyway. I have to assume it was with the intention of beating them to the bank one way or another. Few people deliberately commit felonies when they could have left it a civil matter.

Speaking of blunders, calling a lady an idiot on this forum is one!

Hu