Things that work to good and too much information

[Fatboy]

Magic rack, I'm not knocking it. I'm just going to throw a thought out there, perhaps its been beat to death, i havent been online much recently so if it has sorry.

I'm here at the Riv and been sweating matches in the 10 ball tournemnt,And I noticed that there are 5,6,7 packs being ran this year. Now I'm all for big packages, I liked it when we went to Tx express rules years ago. And broke the balls hard and square.

Then as I predicted would happen years before, I said someone would be smart enough to figure out the rack in 9 ball, I knew if all the balls were frozen the tangent lines could be solved, i didnt have the brains to solve the rack if all theballs arent frozen, but better minds than mine have solved the 9 ball rack even when the balls arent all froze together. Therefore 9Ball is a "broken" game is a way.


So along comes 10 ball, Shane seemed to have the rack figured out the best first around 4 years ago. Everyone else was scratching their heads, the pop-drop(as I call it) break seemed to be the best at 22mph. Now days we know how fast we are breaking, i remember sitting around the pool rooms back in the 80's talking with great players about how fast we thought we were breaking. we didnt know.


Now we know exactly how fast were breaking, the balls are all the same size so with the magic rack the rack is perfect and guys are making 2,3,4, balls on the break playing 10 ball which was suppost to slow that down and take the luck factor out of pool. A race to 8 was a 2 hour thing in 10 ball 3 years ago now the races are as fast as 9 ball. So the great equipment, and knowledge has made 10 ball much easier. None of us are going to want bad balls that arnt all the same size, and who would go back to wood racks that dont rack as good, or even a tapped table. We all know so much more that 10 ball is turning into 9 ball.


Has rotation style games kinda run their course, look at one pocket, seems like the interest level there is picking up alot,


Funny how learning what we have in the past year has changed 10 ball from a slower rotation game into a game with the pace of Tx express 9 ball. I dont know if thats good or bad, the Magic rack could have been manufactored 20 years ago, just the film and a plotter to cut it, funny someone didnt think of it before, its great, I love it. but it has changed 10 in a huge way-forever. is that good or bad?



Fatboy

 

[mnorwood]

Magic rack, I'm not knocking it. I'm just going to throw a thought out there, perhaps its been beat to death, i havent been online much recently so if it has sorry.

I'm here at the Riv and been sweating matches in the 10 ball tournemnt,And I noticed that there are 5,6,7 packs being ran this year. Now I'm all for big packages, I liked it when we went to Tx express rules years ago. And broke the balls hard and square.

Then as I predicted would happen years before, I said someone would be smart enough to figure out the rack in 9 ball, I knew if all the balls were frozen the tangent lines could be solved, i didnt have the brains to solve the rack if all theballs arent frozen, but better minds than mine have solved the 9 ball rack even when the balls arent all froze together. Therefore 9Ball is a "broken" game is a way.


So along comes 10 ball, Shane seemed to have the rack figured out the best first around 4 years ago. Everyone else was scratching their heads, the pop-drop(as I call it) break seemed to be the best at 22mph. Now days we know how fast we are breaking, i remember sitting around the pool rooms back in the 80's talking with great players about how fast we thought we were breaking. we didnt know.


Now we know exactly how fast were breaking, the balls are all the same size so with the magic rack the rack is perfect and guys are making 2,3,4, balls on the break playing 10 ball which was suppost to slow that down and take the luck factor out of pool. A race to 8 was a 2 hour thing in 10 ball 3 years ago now the races are as fast as 9 ball. So the great equipment, and knowledge has made 10 ball much easier. None of us are going to want bad balls that arnt all the same size, and who would go back to wood racks that dont rack as good, or even a tapped table. We all know so much more that 10 ball is turning into 9 ball.


Has rotation style games kinda run their course, look at one pocket, seems like the interest level there is picking up alot,


Funny how learning what we have in the past year has changed 10 ball from a slower rotation game into a game with the pace of Tx express 9 ball. I dont know if thats good or bad, the Magic rack could have been manufactored 20 years ago, just the film and a plotter to cut it, funny someone didnt think of it before, its great, I love it. but it has changed 10 in a huge way-forever. is that good or bad?



Fatboy

I agree with what you are saying. I have never liked rotation games anyways. I don't think they make for good television and I really hate the short race weekly tournament where guys luck in the 9 and win.

I am an advocate for the development of another type of game for professionals and amateurs alike. As far as 9 ball and 10 ball running its course, I don't think they ever had a course. Time for something different.

 

[TX Poolnut]

full rack, 15 ball rotation or 14.1.

.02

 

[sfleinen]

I agree with what you are saying. I have never liked rotation games anyways. I don't think they make for good television and I really hate the short race weekly tournament where guys luck in the 9 and win.

I am an advocate for the development of another type of game for professionals and amateurs alike. As far as 9 ball and 10 ball running its course, I don't think they ever had a course. Time for something different.

Marcus:

I have to agree with you. Rotation pool has run whatever course it had. I have a lot of friends and colleagues that do not play pool (or at least are just "once in a blue moon" players), and they do not identify with the kind of pool being broadcast (or replayed, in the case of previously recorded matches) on TV. AT ALL.

This whole "pool color-by-numbers" thing? It's not that they don't get it, but rather they can't follow it. Whereas we pool players can identify the numbers of the balls by merely their color, the general public can't.

I was at a friend's house the other day, a person who is of the "in a blue moon" type of player. If he's in a bar with friends and those friends wander over to the establishment's barbox, he'll play -- that's the extent of his pool playing endeavors. While waiting for the family to get ready, I was watching "yet-another-<yawn!>-match-between-Allison-and-Karen" on ESPN Classic to pass the time. Whenever I watch these types of matches to pass the time, rather than get bored with the stereotypical "follow the pattern dictated to you by the numbers on the balls," I'll ignore the colors/numbers on the balls, and instead pretend the match is a straight pool or one pocket match -- after every shot, I'll try to figure out the "how to get out from here" pattern for either 14.1 or one pocket.

My friend had walked up behind me, unbeknownst to me, and was watching quietly as well. After a good, solid 15 minutes, he finally piped up and asked me, "how can you watch that?" I explained to him what the game was (he was only familiar with 8-ball), and explained the "strategy" of 9-ball. He just shook his head and said "and they expect the public to like this? Why don't they think of a more obviously-apparent and exciting game, if they want people to watch pool?" He wasn't being disrespectful of the fact that I'm an avid player (he knows this about me); rather, he was sharing an obvious (and well-educated) point. I'm not saying I know the answer to this. Is the answer One Pocket? Is it 14.1? Is it 8-ball? I don't know.

I do know this -- over in the U.K. and in Asia, snooker is extremely popular. And that is a game that is not straight-forwardly obvious (i.e. someone that has never watched snooker before won't know why a player is selecting the color of balls to shoot at, unless someone explains the rules). But what is obvious, is the respect for the difficulty of the shots that are being executed. I didn't mention it in the previous paragraph, but that same friend and I watched a televised snooker match some months ago. The reaction was completely different than from the tired old 9-ball matches shown on TV here. My friend was wide-eyed in awe, and definitely glued to the match, even though he didn't know the rules for snooker (which I helped along with, during commercial breaks).

We're not doing something right in pool, that's for sure. Perhaps we need a clone of Barry Hearn over here?

-Sean

 

[rayjay]

Agreed. I think the next big thing, at least on TV, will be 8-ball, just because the public can more easily identify with stripes and solids quickly and mentally participate to some degree while watching. And with all the pool tables in this country, I don't see snooker replacing them anytime soon...unfortunately.

 

[Snapshot9]

As I said

in the thread I put on here 2 days ago, I think Rotational 8 ball is the next level, especially for the pros. You have to shoot the solids or stripes in rotation before the 8 ball. It is harder, takes more skill, opens up new mental approaches to the game, and will offer the excitement.

 

[Johnnyt]

in the thread I put on here 2 days ago, I think Rotational 8 ball is the next level, especially for the pros. You have to shoot the solids or stripes in rotation before the 8 ball. It is harder, takes more skill, opens up new mental approaches to the game, and will offer the excitement.

8-ball rotation is a lot harder than regular 8-ball...a lot harder. Johnnyt

 

[1on1pooltournys]

Excellent point Fatboy. I caught on to this while watching this week and had virtually this exact argument yesterday.

Pretty soon we will be seeing 12 ball tournaments or 15 ball rotation. The players are getting too good and the knowledge is easily accessible for all who have the desire to learn.

 

[mnorwood]

Marcus:

I have to agree with you. Rotation pool has run whatever course it had. I have a lot of friends and colleagues that do not play pool (or at least are just "once in a blue moon" players), and they do not identify with the kind of pool being broadcast (or replayed, in the case of previously recorded matches) on TV. AT ALL.

This whole "pool color-by-numbers" thing? It's not that they don't get it, but rather they can't follow it. Whereas we pool players can identify the numbers of the balls by merely their color, the general public can't.

I was at a friend's house the other day, a person who is of the "in a blue moon" type of player. If he's in a bar with friends and those friends wander over to the establishment's barbox, he'll play -- that's the extent of his pool playing endeavors. While waiting for the family to get ready, I was watching "yet-another-<yawn!>-match-between-Allison-and-Karen" on ESPN Classic to pass the time. Whenever I watch these types of matches to pass the time, rather than get bored with the stereotypical "follow the pattern dictated to you by the numbers on the balls," I'll ignore the colors/numbers on the balls, and instead pretend the match is a straight pool or one pocket match -- after every shot, I'll try to figure out the "how to get out from here" pattern for either 14.1 or one pocket.

My friend had walked up behind me, unbeknownst to me, and was watching quietly as well. After a good, solid 15 minutes, he finally piped up and asked me, "how can you watch that?" I explained to him what the game was (he was only familiar with 8-ball), and explained the "strategy" of 9-ball. He just shook his head and said "and they expect the public to like this? Why don't they think of a more obviously-apparent and exciting game, if they want people to watch pool?" He wasn't being disrespectful of the fact that I'm an avid player (he knows this about me); rather, he was sharing an obvious (and well-educated) point. I'm not saying I know the answer to this. Is the answer One Pocket? Is it 14.1? Is it 8-ball? I don't know.

I do know this -- over in the U.K. and in Asia, snooker is extremely popular. And that is a game that is not straight-forwardly obvious (i.e. someone that has never watched snooker before won't know why a player is selecting the color of balls to shoot at, unless someone explains the rules). But what is obvious, is the respect for the difficulty of the shots that are being executed. I didn't mention it in the previous paragraph, but that same friend and I watched a televised snooker match some months ago. The reaction was completely different than from the tired old 9-ball matches shown on TV here. My friend was wide-eyed in awe, and definitely glued to the match, even though he didn't know the rules for snooker (which I helped along with, during commercial breaks).

We're not doing something right in pool, that's for sure. Perhaps we need a clone of Barry Hearn over here?

-Sean

Funny you mention Barry Hearn he did visit Vegas a couple of months ago to set up some sort of exhibition here in the states (nothing firm). Patrick GuiGui is bringing two IBSF world championship snooker tournaments to north america. I have never understood why they haven't tried to market snooker here.

For years I have said that the 9 foot table is too small for television and the game of 9 ball is too hard for Joe six pack to follow and even harder for him to appreciate. I am not saying snooker or a different game of pool would be the next poker but I do think it would be much more relevant than 9 ball. One problem with the few people that are still trying to do something with pool is that they are trying to make a failed game successful. Making 9 ball good for t.v. is like trying to make a cinder block float, it aint going to happen.

 

[Fatboy]

Funny you mention Barry Hearn he did visit Vegas a couple of months ago to set up some sort of exhibition here in the states (nothing firm). Patrick GuiGui is bringing two IBSF world championship snooker tournaments to north america. I have never understood why they haven't tried to market snooker here.

For years I have said that the 9 foot table is too small for television and the game of 9 ball is too hard for Joe six pack to follow and even harder for him to appreciate. I am not saying snooker or a different game of pool would be the next poker but I do think it would be much more relevant than 9 ball. One problem with the few people that are still trying to do something with pool is that they are trying to make a failed game successful. Making 9 ball good for t.v. is like trying to make a cinder block float, it aint going to happen.

9 ball isnt fun to watch if you dont play pool. period. Banks is more fun for people who dont know about pool, I noticed that at my house a few times, we would be playing banks and guys would be there who know ZERO about pool, but thought the shots looked cool,

Its simple to understand-everyone gets it, just hit a rail call the pocket, there isnt a simpler game(3 ball is more complex), they all liked the 2 and 3 railers. Its like watching half court shots in Basket ball one guy said, he realized how hard they were, and they even liked real fast straight backs. Short rack banks, first player to bank 5 balls wins. Everyone knows what a bank shot is and if you miss you lose your turn, put up a score board and you have a simple game to market that everyone understands now.


go to Time Square ask 100 people what a bank shot is in pool and 83 people will know, ask the same 100 people the rules of 9 ball are nobody will know.

That fact alone and the fact that 9 ball and 7 ball and 8 ball has failed on TV in America for the past 30 years tells you something.

Snooker is well understood in the UK, So there is no learning curve, 9 ball, 10 have too steep of a learning curve for the average dumb America and if they do understand it, they dont under stand what it takes to run a rack, position play, correct side of the ball, all the things we players take for granted are blind to the general population, somehow in the UK they general public(or enough of them to make it ecnomically viable) know snooker. Snooker has a cool scoreing system, red, color, red, color etc building a break(total number of points earned in one inning at the table) That aint ever gonna work here in America-the ADD, ignorance etc, Facebook etc. Is gonna keep snooker out of America, hell the BBC wont even let us watch it, I had to get a proxy to see it, yet its every where else in the world. So snooker aint ever gonna make south from canada or across the pond. You can forget that pipe dream, pisses me off to.:angry:


But bank pool is so easy, the stupidest person can watch it and understand it and its great to watch, and for the players the better player wins, no rack mechnics, no rolls for the most part. The people watching it get it. So IMO short rack banks needs to be promoted. One pocket gets to slow for the ADD people, and they are clueless of what they are watching.

Keep it fast, dumb, simple, and then sell it. 9 Ball banks is that game.


think about it

fatboy

 

["CaliRed".]

But bank pool is so easy, the stupidest person can watch it and understand it and its great to watch, and for the players the better player wins, no rack mechnics, no rolls for the most part. The people watching it get it. So IMO short rack banks needs to be promoted. One pocket gets to slow for the ADD people, and they are clueless of what they are watching.

Keep it fast, dumb, simple, and then sell it. 9 Ball banks is that game.


think about it

fatboy

I agree that banks is a pretty easy game to understand in it's basic form. Then again, you have to start throwing in that a bank must be clean, no combos, no kicks, no rail first, that you have to have something hit a rail after contact or it's a foul. Toss in the strategy of playing safe and just making balls so they spot up and it gets a little more confusing. Furthermore, scratching after making a ball, what the hell you mean I got to put up the ball I made AND another one.

For two hacks, one game of 9 ball banks might last easily a hour or more There's going to be lots of scratches when they shoot at everything.

For even a couple of decent players, it might last quite awhile. There's a lot of "almost" shots and a lot of turns at the table where if they don't know how to twist banks and get out of kisses, they don't have much to shoot at.

I absolutely love the game. There amount of luck is very small compared to all other games.

I would love to see more people enjoy it and for it to become more popular. I have to beg people to play it where I live, and most of the time, that isn't even enough to persuade them.

Next Derby, if I can swing the trip... we need to play some sociable banks.

 

[softshot]

For years I have said that the 9 foot table is too small for television and the game of 9 ball is too hard for Joe six pack to follow and even harder for him to appreciate.

I don't think it's to hard to follow. it's just boring to watch... the problem with American pool at the PRO level. is you are expected to run the table a high percentage of the time.. It might be mildly impressive the first rack.. but it gets pretty old pretty fast.

now contrast with Snooker. a perfect 147 table run is an actual accomplishment . Ronnie O'Sullivan is one of the greatest snooker players in history..and he's only hit a perfect run out 10 times in his career. and 10 is considered a mind blowing amazing feat..

when you watch a snooker match you hope you might get to see a rare 147..

with a 9/10ball match. if you don't see a few table runs.. you are not watching pros.

it's not impressive.. it's expected.. and it's boring... unless you are the one running out.

 

[Gunn_Slinger]

9 ball is fine for "b" players and under and for 'a' players also (if you consider pros 'A++++++' ) 10 ball for 'b' s and some 'a' s is a very slow game with a lot of ducking. There is such a big gap between 'a' to 'd' players and pros now that it appears time to make the table change Earl has proposed. Bring on the 10 foots! But for pro tourneys only. Pool is hard enough for most pool room players on 9 foots. Plus room owners are not going to put in 8 10 foot tables when they can put in 12-15 9 foots.
My concern is dont make pool room players play on pro tourney 10 foots.
On the other hand, I dont watch golf tourneys to see players make bogeys and double's. I want birdies and eagles. SOOO.. if we make the game ( 9ball, 10ball ) so hard that a break and run is a rarity, who will watch?
Just a thought

p. s.
We could go to slow wool cloth, break with your playin cue, spot all the balls, ball in hand behind the line, etc.
Just another thought............

 

[Slh]

you guys talk about the hardness to follow 9 ball for a non pool player....
so why 3 cushions which is the game with the easiest rule to understand has even less following than pool? Just wondering.
We must understand pool will never be a huge followed sport.
It is like chess, is chess streamed on television? No. It takes away the beauty of the game?

 

[smashmouth]

this is Sardo all over again

I think we've overlooked how much ball movement you get from a tight rack, and how what we thought were tight racks in the past were really not

 

[Fatboy]

p. s.
We could go to slow wool cloth,
Just another thought............

from your lips to Gods ears, please bring back real cloth, this Shitmonis pitty pat pool cloth sucks, 10 years ago 860 had a little nap now ist shaved down to almost 760 levels, I have the evidence, there is still old 860out there, I have some. This new Shitmonis the balls skid, god forbid you fire at a ball the CB rolls like its 3C cloth.

 

[paksat]

Magic rack, I'm not knocking it. I'm just going to throw a thought out there, perhaps its been beat to death, i havent been online much recently so if it has sorry.

I'm here at the Riv and been sweating matches in the 10 ball tournemnt,And I noticed that there are 5,6,7 packs being ran this year. Now I'm all for big packages, I liked it when we went to Tx express rules years ago. And broke the balls hard and square.

Then as I predicted would happen years before, I said someone would be smart enough to figure out the rack in 9 ball, I knew if all the balls were frozen the tangent lines could be solved, i didnt have the brains to solve the rack if all theballs arent frozen, but better minds than mine have solved the 9 ball rack even when the balls arent all froze together. Therefore 9Ball is a "broken" game is a way.


So along comes 10 ball, Shane seemed to have the rack figured out the best first around 4 years ago. Everyone else was scratching their heads, the pop-drop(as I call it) break seemed to be the best at 22mph. Now days we know how fast we are breaking, i remember sitting around the pool rooms back in the 80's talking with great players about how fast we thought we were breaking. we didnt know.


Now we know exactly how fast were breaking, the balls are all the same size so with the magic rack the rack is perfect and guys are making 2,3,4, balls on the break playing 10 ball which was suppost to slow that down and take the luck factor out of pool. A race to 8 was a 2 hour thing in 10 ball 3 years ago now the races are as fast as 9 ball. So the great equipment, and knowledge has made 10 ball much easier. None of us are going to want bad balls that arnt all the same size, and who would go back to wood racks that dont rack as good, or even a tapped table. We all know so much more that 10 ball is turning into 9 ball.


Has rotation style games kinda run their course, look at one pocket, seems like the interest level there is picking up alot,


Funny how learning what we have in the past year has changed 10 ball from a slower rotation game into a game with the pace of Tx express 9 ball. I dont know if thats good or bad, the Magic rack could have been manufactored 20 years ago, just the film and a plotter to cut it, funny someone didnt think of it before, its great, I love it. but it has changed 10 in a huge way-forever. is that good or bad?



Fatboy

The main thing about 10 ball rules is the ability to pass back shots that are basically "bullsh*t."

No longer can someone go for a crazy shot and get lucky by getting safe at the same time. It's a thing of the past with 10 ball. As are all the other luck shots.

I personally am glad to see the pace of the game pick up like this, makes viewing it all the more fun and we don't have to say "oh look at that 7 going in off 3 rails off the 4 ball".. nope, he didn't call it

 

[Majic]

Break all 15 balls and run them in order !!!!!! Novel idea..........its a (mans) real game !!!

 

[sfleinen]

The main thing about 10 ball rules is the ability to pass back shots that are basically "bullsh*t."

No longer can someone go for a crazy shot and get lucky by getting safe at the same time. It's a thing of the past with 10 ball. As are all the other luck shots.

I personally am glad to see the pace of the game pick up like this, makes viewing it all the more fun and we don't have to say "oh look at that 7 going in off 3 rails off the 4 ball".. nope, he didn't call it

Unfortunately paksat, that's not the way all 10-ball is played. "Pure" WPA rules stipulate that if a player calls a shot, misses, and doesn't pocket any ball, the incoming player *has* to accept the table as-is.

It's only the Tony Tobles' Predator tour and [methinks] the Seminole Tribe tour that has the "incoming player has option on missed shot" extension to the base WPA rules. SBE tried those rule extensions last year, but reverted back to pure WPA rules for this year's event.

-Sean