This Is A New One On Me!!!

cardiac kid

cardiac kid

Super Senior Member
Silver Member
Hi Folks,

Never have seen this happen. Anyone care to give a ruling?

Opponents ball is NEARLY frozen to the rail. There is a piece of cloth lint touching the ball. Is the ball frozen to the rail? Yes or no?

The cloth is some cheap cloth being used on a Valley Cougar bar box. The rails are covered with this lint. Sometimes just a small ball. Sometimes a thread. The thread is part of the rail cloth. If the thread is considered part of the rail, wouldn't the ball be considered frozen? This one stumped me. Playing BCAPL rules in a scotch doubles league.

Lyn
 
cardiac kid said:
Hi Folks,

Never have seen this happen. Anyone care to give a ruling?

Opponents ball is NEARLY frozen to the rail. There is a piece of cloth lint touching the ball. Is the ball frozen to the rail? Yes or no?

The cloth is some cheap cloth being used on a Valley Cougar bar box. The rails are covered with this lint. Sometimes just a small ball. Sometimes a thread. The thread is part of the rail cloth. If the thread is considered part of the rail, wouldn't the ball be considered frozen? This one stumped me. Playing BCAPL rules in a scotch doubles league.

Lyn
Click to expand...

Lyn, if I can see air between the ball and the rail it's not frozen imo, piece of lint notwithstanding.
 
Actually, I think it would be fine to do away with the frozen ball rule. Let the stalemate rule cover those situations where it would otherwise be applied.

That means there would be no more nitty little moves related to a ball being frozen or not, or the use of magnifying glasses by overly aggressive opponents and officials.

I think there is no real downside of simply saying that driving a frozen ball into the cushion counts as a cushion contact.
 
No. According to rule 87.631, page 154, of the Pool Players Handbook, loose impediments are not considered part of the table's surface and therefore is not considered to cause a foul when the fore mentioned cue ball has contacted said impediment. :)
 
Bob Jewett said:
Actually, I think it would be fine to do away with the frozen ball rule. Let the stalemate rule cover those situations where it would otherwise be applied.

That means there would be no more nitty little moves related to a ball being frozen or not, or the use of magnifying glasses by overly aggressive opponents and officials.

I think there is no real downside of simply saying that driving a frozen ball into the cushion counts as a cushion contact.
Click to expand...

I agree, but I also think frozen cue to OB push rule is in need of rethinking.
 
3andstop said:
I agree, but I also think frozen cue to OB push rule is in need of rethinking.
Click to expand...
Do you mean it should be allowed to push through the balls when frozen? Currently a push is still illegal in that situation. If the balls are frozen you may make a normal stroke into those balls without it being a double hit, but that is not the same thing as a push shot. If anything is the problem is that people often conflate the two, but that really isn't a problem with the rules.
 
I once saw a piece of lint on a cold January day, that was caught in a warm updraft. It floated higher and higher above the pool table and seemed to be weightlessly suspended in air, like a flying saucer. After a while, the furnace kicked off and it floated back down to the floor. My opponent had still not shot. We call him Cobweb.
 
Was the Forrest Gump theme music playing in the background too?

:wink:

Buckzapper said:
I once saw a piece of lint on a cold January day, that was caught in a warm updraft. It floated higher and higher above the pool table and seemed to be weightlessly suspended in air, like a flying saucer. After a while, the furnace kicked off and it floated back down to the floor. My opponent had still not shot. We call him Cobweb.
Click to expand...
 
In One Pocket

Bob Jewett said:
Actually, I think it would be fine to do away with the frozen ball rule. Let the stalemate rule cover those situations where it would otherwise be applied.

That means there would be no more nitty little moves related to a ball being frozen or not, or the use of magnifying glasses by overly aggressive opponents and officials.

I think there is no real downside of simply saying that driving a frozen ball into the cushion counts as a cushion contact.
Click to expand...

I would agree with you with the possible exception of One Pocket. It would actually make more moves possible and Im not sure of the real consequences but it would favor the shooter. I think I might like though.
 
Guys,

Thank you for both the serious and humorous answers to my question. Another player approached me last night and asked me that exact question. Didn't have a definitive answer for him. Thought I would pass it by my friends at AZ. Guess I'll contact Bill Stock and ask him what his ruling would be as this was a BCAPL sanctioned league. Incidentally, I agree with the declared frozen rule. Just question what constitutes the edge of the rail cloth. Is it the permanent surface or any other parts of the cloth? Thanks again.

Lyn
 
Tramp Steamer said:
No. According to rule 87.631, page 154, of the Pool Players Handbook, loose impediments are not considered part of the table's surface and therefore is not considered to cause a foul when the fore mentioned cue ball has contacted said impediment. :)
Click to expand...

Grady - is that you?

BTW Mr. Micawber called and said it is "afore"

Dale
 
cardiac kid said:
Guys,

Thank you for both the serious and humorous answers to my question. Another player approached me last night and asked me that exact question. Didn't have a definitive answer for him. Thought I would pass it by my friends at AZ. Guess I'll contact Bill Stock and ask him what his ruling would be as this was a BCAPL sanctioned league. Incidentally, I agree with the declared frozen rule. Just question what constitutes the edge of the rail cloth. Is it the permanent surface or any other parts of the cloth? Thanks again.

Lyn
Click to expand...

No need to contact Bill, Lyn. Ctyhntr had it right and quoted the frozen ball definition from the BCAPL book. The ball is not frozen.

Buddy
 
StraightPoolIU said:
Do you mean it should be allowed to push through the balls when frozen? Currently a push is still illegal in that situation.

If the balls are frozen you may make a normal stroke into those balls without it being a double hit, but that is not the same thing as a push shot.

Well, while it's true I'm just an old guy ... the above two paragraphs are confusing to me.

If anything is the problem is that people often conflate the two, but that really isn't a problem with the rules.
Click to expand...


From the moment I heard the words, I really liked the concept. The words came from our beloved Grady Mathews and he said regardless of if the balls are frozen or not you should be able to shoot at them from any angle " So long as the CB shows character."

Now of course there will be those who say what is the definition of character? I say, if you don't know ... go bowling.

Also ... if the CB beats the OB or ties .... LOL that's a push.
 
Yeah that's a no. It's a foreign object. In a tournament, a referee might mark & clean the ball if the shooter requested.
 
jay helfert said:
Lyn, if I can see air between the ball and the rail it's not frozen imo, piece of lint notwithstanding.
Click to expand...
Wasn't there a rule that used to cover this...a ball is considered frozen to the rail if within a piece of chalk's diameter, or am I mis-remembering something?
 
Last edited:
StraightPoolIU:
Do you mean it should be allowed to push through the balls when frozen? Currently a push is still illegal in that situation.

If the balls are frozen you may make a normal stroke into those balls without it being a double hit, but that is not the same thing as a push shot.
Click to expand...
3andstop:
Well, while it's true I'm just an old guy ... the above two paragraphs are confusing to me.
Click to expand...
They confuse a lot of people, but they actually make sense when you know what happens with the tip and the balls.

A push is when the tip stays on the CB an unusual amount of time. But when you stroke through a frozen CB/OB they both leave the tip at the same time, as if they're one ball, so there is no unusually long contact (and no double hit either).

pj
chgo
 
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