Thoughts on TAR 21

B

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I ordered and watched as much of TAR 21 as I could and I just wanted to point out what I thought about it.

First off, I thought the production was pretty good. I didn't have any problems getting it ordered and only minor issues with actually viewing the stream. I lost the stream a few times and had to reset it a couple of others. These were very minimal inconveniences and they weren't anything I lost any sleep over. The actual camera work and the clarity of the stream were outstanding! I would have liked to get a nice shot of the entire studio just to get a better feel for the environment. It's possible this was done and I just missed it since I didn't actually watch every minute.

The commentary was just okay for me. I did enjoy listening to Jay and Billy the first day. I think I could see what Jay had in store for us had Billy been able to stay in the booth the entire event. With a match of this length I wouldn't really expect the commentating to consist of the typical play-by-play type that you would get with a shorter match. So, weaving in the interesting stories does seem like the way to go. Jay's enjoyable to listen to in that regard. I also liked listening to Jay and I believe it was Bobby Cotton there at the end.

Now, as far as the match itself was concerned - I have mixed feelings about this. I really love pool so of course I loved watching these two great players but something was missing for me. When it comes to determining who the better player is the race to 100 is great, but when it comes to peaking my interest as a fan and building up the tension in the room I don't think the race to 100 is where it's at. I think several shorter races to 25 would be better. I know with the race to 100 format there is no way I could ever recommend this type of match to any of my non-pool playing friends or family. I know they are not the intended audience but I could see my competitive minded brother being interested in watching a high stakes pool match in a shorter format.

Lastly, the tight pockets - hmmm. I don't like them. The thing I find most beautiful (that's right I said beautiful) about the rotational games is seeing the amazing positional shots with the cue ball. Shots were the cue ball has to travel 3, 4, or even 5 rails and then sneak in behind a blocking ball to get shape. Or a long straight in shot were the player really juices up the ball and draws is back the length of the table and then some. In order to see these types of shots the players have to be playing with great confidence. I wasn't seeing that type of confidence on this table. What I saw, was two great players really focused on pocketing every shot. So, I think some of the beauty of the game is lost with tables setup like this. The focus becomes solely on pocketing the ball and the great positional shots are not even considered. I know a lot of people will disagree with me here - and that's fine but I just missed seeing some of those power shots that I have always enjoyed seeing in 9 Ball (and now 10 Ball).

Lastly - Lastly, I know the race, rules, table specs, and so forth are setup by the players so there's not much TAR can do about that at the present but if this thing continues to grow maybe TAR will have more input in that going forward and I think that would be a good thing.

All in all, I thought it was pretty cool and I will be back for more.
 
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BasementDweller said:
Lastly, the tight pockets - hmmm. I don't like them. The thing I find most beautiful (that's right I said beautiful) about the rotational games is seeing the amazing positional shots with the cue ball. Shots were the cue ball has to travel 3, 4, or even 5 rails and then sneak in behind a blocking ball to get shape. Or a long straight in shot were the player really juices up the ball and draws is back the length of the table and then some. In order to see these types of shots the players have to be playing with great confidence. I wasn't seeing that type of confidence on this table. What I saw, was two great players really focused on pocketing every shot. So, I think some of the beauty of the game is lost with tables setup like this. The focus becomes solely on pocketing the ball and the great positional shots are not even considered.
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Sadly, I wasn't able to see this particular match. But I agree with this paragraph 110%. Nothing better than seeing a great player get into a groove & begin firing lights out. Everything goes, the cue ball dances, balls move here & there like Musashi's sword, seeming like chaos until a ball drops & the cue ball is in perfect line for the next shot. That's when you realize it's brilliance, not chaos. You can't look away because the suspense of what's coming next is too dramatic to ignore. It's entertaining, inspiring, and intriguing. It's super human. I miss seeing games like that. I grew up watching games like that & that kind of drama is what gripped my young mind & got me so hooked on the game. Lately, as in the last few years, great pool has been somewhat undramatic & boring to watch.

If I were not hooked on pool, i'd not play it now & especially wouldn't watch it. I got roped into the game by seeing talented players string rack after rack, looking like there's no possible way to get another shot but they pull it off like it's nothing. It used to be like a magic show. You couldn't look away. Now, it straight up sucks. It's undramatic & boring. Rules & conditions dictate a level playing field that severely handicap ANY player's ability to dead stroke. The best match I seen in recent years was Shane & Earl on the 10'. Earl was phenomenal, like the old days. Too bad it had to be gaffed up or we could have seen him really cut loose. Shane, too. Watching greatness is entertaining. Pool now is like watching dogs fight with muzzles on. What's wrong with 4.5" pockets? What's wrong with winner break? Why build a 7 second car only to regulate it for 9 second runs? Boring. I'd rather watch two short stops bang it out on 4.5" pockets than two world class pros do it on 4" pockets. That's the games that got me hooked on pool. If pool in the 80's & 90's was like it is now, I wouldn't be a pool player.
 
the only reason why you don't see many "amazing positional shots" or great shots is because the pros are used to play on very easy conditions ( Super fast cloth, buckets tables ( 4,5 inches and 5 inches pockets are buckets for them), perfect conditions, ecc.) and when they are playing in tougher tables they are not very confident. If they switch on tighter tables their confidence level will increase.
Also i read a lot of comments like "with tight pockets you can't play many positional shot", what kind of positional shots? The ones where you get unline on a shot and you cheat a 5inches corner pocket? With tight pockets you must play proper positions and you must be more accurate and this will favor the best player.

qbilder said:
Sadly, I wasn't able to see this particular match. But I agree with this paragraph 110%. Nothing better than seeing a great player get into a groove & begin firing lights out. Everything goes, the cue ball dances, balls move here & there like Musashi's sword, seeming like chaos until a ball drops & the cue ball is in perfect line for the next shot. That's when you realize it's brilliance, not chaos. You can't look away because the suspense of what's coming next is too dramatic to ignore. It's entertaining, inspiring, and intriguing. It's super human. I miss seeing games like that. I grew up watching games like that & that kind of drama is what gripped my young mind & got me so hooked on the game. Lately, as in the last few years, great pool has been somewhat undramatic & boring to watch.

If I were not hooked on pool, i'd not play it now & especially wouldn't watch it. I got roped into the game by seeing talented players string rack after rack, looking like there's no possible way to get another shot but they pull it off like it's nothing. It used to be like a magic show. You couldn't look away. Now, it straight up sucks. It's undramatic & boring. Rules & conditions dictate a level playing field that severely handicap ANY player's ability to dead stroke. The best match I seen in recent years was Shane & Earl on the 10'. Earl was phenomenal, like the old days. Too bad it had to be gaffed up or we could have seen him really cut loose. Shane, too. Watching greatness is entertaining. Pool now is like watching dogs fight with muzzles on. What's wrong with 4.5" pockets? What's wrong with winner break? Why build a 7 second car only to regulate it for 9 second runs? Boring. I'd rather watch two short stops bang it out on 4.5" pockets than two world class pros do it on 4" pockets. That's the games that got me hooked on pool. If pool in the 80's & 90's was like it is now, I wouldn't be a pool player.
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i don't want to offend, but do you realize that you see that magic ( as you say) because it is easy to do for them? Also SVB run a 7 pack on the tar table so its not like a russian pyramid table
 
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A out of left field idea!!!

Sounds like the players need an incentive to Run-out...what about in these long races to 100, that if a player runs out the rack the are awarded 2 points or a point and half, giving them some reward for doing so. Could also help a player stage a comeback by going for the run out.

just a thought....go ahead shoot it down....!!!!
 
The match seems like it was set up for production and gambling mostly when it comes to the conditions. 8 hours of pool is ALLOT to endure for almost anyone except the players. I like the idea of something that can easily be sold to the public, like a race to 9 best three out of five sets ea day with a nice break in between. Also, for the public again, would like to see a table set up so if the player gets out of like he's able to go another route (forward with follow), but with extremely tight tables this aspect of pool is pretty much lost, and watching Sigel in his prime was enlightening seeing him and many other greats going forward with whitey instead of it being too risky and the only other option is safe. I've always felt, when selling our sport to the public it needs to be fast paced and agressive and all that rotation pool USED to be. Also, for the commentators, WoW, what a grind my hats off to you two for pulling this off but next time, may consider having two sets of commentators, one pairing like such as Jay/Billy being paid what they are worth, and the next set of two very minimal amounts, but this would be a great test ground to find others that have talent in this area, let the spectators have a say in this area, no different than the NFL, some we like, others are ok, and some we dislike, options are a good thing.
 
Shane runs a 7 Pack?!?!?!?!?!? Yeah it seems that postion for this match was not on par like it is with tables with buckets :rolleyes:

Im not trying to be a jerk or smartass (didnt see this myself) but a 7 pack on this table??? What more could you ask for??? :cool:
 
Slh said:
the only reason why you don't see many "amazing positional shots" or great shots is because the pros are used to play on very easy conditions ( Super fast cloth, buckets tables ( 4,5 inches and 5 inches pockets are buckets for them), perfect conditions, ecc.) and when they are playing in tougher tables they are not very confident. If they switch on tighter tables their confidence level will increase.
Also i read a lot of comments like "with tight pockets you can't play many positional shot", what kind of positional shots? The ones where you get unline on a shot and you cheat a 5inches corner pocket? With tight pockets you must play proper positions and you must be more accurate and this will favor the best player.
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I do understand that if the top players were constanstly playing on tables with 4 inch pockets the level of play would increase a bit as the players got more used to them, BUT that's not the only thing at play here. These guys are not just great players but they are intelligent players as well. They can figure out the percentages and the type of table they are playing on dictates the type of shots they are going to attempt. So, all I'm saying is - most of the traditionaly power shots you see in 9ball & 10Ball aren't even attempted on tables that are this tight.

Slh said:
i don't want to offend, but do you realize that you see that magic ( as you say) because it is easy to do for them? Also SVB run a 7 pack on the tar table so its not like a russian pyramid table
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The 7 pack was a monumental feat and I enjoyed watching it. For me, I guess if the game is too easy for them on 4.5 inch pockets I would rather they add more balls than continue to make the pockets tighter. The tighter the pockets become the less interesting the shots are to watch. While I appreciate how difficult it is to pocket the object ball, the actual joy I get from the game comes from watching the cue ball. That's all I'm saying.
 
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Just for the record most pro strictly play on tables with 4 1/2" pockets and not 4". 4" pockets are ridiculous and only really good for one-pocket IMHO...
 
RunoutJJ said:
Shane runs a 7 Pack?!?!?!?!?!? Yeah it seems that postion for this match was not on par like it is with tables with buckets :rolleyes:

Im not trying to be a jerk or smartass (didnt see this myself) but a 7 pack on this table??? What more could you ask for??? :cool:
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I did say that I would be back for more. I would watch this match again with the same setup. I just thought something was missing and I think part of that was the table setup. Island Drive pointed it out well in his post, these guys usually only had 1 option for position play (paraphrasing). If that position wasn't attained perfectly then they had to punt.

Not to mention (or to mention), we did have to endure quite a bit of sloppy (tough word to use on this equipment) play in order to see this 7 pack.

Different strokes for different um ... what's that saying?
 
I am with Basement Dweller

I have to confess that I did not watch TAR 21. I would have liked to.

In any case, I do think the conditions are becoming tough enough that it is worth asking (as a community that cares about pool), "How tough is too tough?" Part of pool is cheating pockets, making angles, and developing a reasonably powerful stroke.

For example, remember Corey Deuel's infamous draw shot in the US Open occurred when he had Mika down something like 10-2 or 10-3? Mika was out of that match, so Corey felt loose enough to draw the ball in a way many people had not seen. The place went nuts, and a for a few seconds everyone saw something new and great. This may not ever happen unless Mika is out of the match because the Diamond Pro Cut tables are so tough.

I do think it is important that the better players win, and Diamond Pro cut tables help in this, but going any tougher starts to change the game to something else, in my view, and it does start to take away power shots that many people like to watch (especially people new to pool).

Just my 0.02

kollegedave
 
BasementDweller said:
I do understand that if the top players were constanstly playing on tables with 4 inch pockets the level of play would increase a bit as the players got more used to them, BUT that's not the only thing at play here. These guys are not just great players but they are intelligent players as well. They can figure out the percentages and the type of table they are playing on dictates the type of shots they are going to attempt. So, all I'm saying is - most of the traditionaly power shots you see in 9ball & 10Ball aren't even attempted on tables that are this tight.



The 7 pack was a monumental feat and I enjoyed watching it. For me, I guess if the game is too easy for them on 4.5 inch pockets I would rather they add more balls than continue to make the pockets tighter. The tighter the pockets become the less interesting the shots are to watch. While I appreciate how difficult it is to pocket the object ball, the actual joy I get from the game comes from watching the cue ball. That's all I'm saying.
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My point. I'm not taking ANYTHING away from the players. They are great, as good as any player ever. The game is different & it's because of tougher conditions. Players of yesteryear would have played exactly like players today, had the conditions been the same. Players adjust to the conditions. With these ridiculous tight pockets, nobody is comfortable to let loose & free ball. Therefore, we get to watch tense, timid, calculated pool. Might as well watch chess. The dynamite exciting pool is what I miss seeing. And that comes from 4.5" pockets. What's really awesome is seeing both players in stroke, battling for the top position. Pack answered with pack is awesome. 4 balls then a safe, consistently, gets old & boring and will not appeal to anybody that doesn't have an accomplished understanding of what's happening (actual pool players). My point was that to attract new people to pool, and keep all of us excited, would be letting loose of the reigns so the horses run. I like seeing raw, uninhibited talent.
 
Regarding the long race to 100 format, my suggestion would be to run a highlight reel of the previous day's best action. It would add a ton of value for the ppl who buy the streams, to be able to see anything they might have missed, cuz they couldn't hang for all 9 hours.

Justin, I don't know if this is something that can be easily done, without adding more straws to the camel"s back. If so, a highlight reel of the previous days top action, thrown up on Youtube would be perfect (not to mention, good advertisement).


Eric
 
I think TAR would appreciate everyone's view on what interests that particular person. There is no right or wrong answer here. Each person, as a individual, has something that they feel they would most be entertained with. Hopefully this thread can stay on track and not become a "Who I would like to see play" thread. There's already one or two of those going on.

If each person indicates what "does it for them", then obviously there might be 50 different productions after it's all said and done. We all know that they can't have 50 different productions, so then in my mind, it would come down to finding the common things that people are interested in. Then a person would have to weigh in whether those are feasible to do.

Justin knows he can't please everyone and there will always be people that are unhappy with what's being presented to them. But the important thing is, I think, that everyone does have something that they like, and one should feel comfortable stating that in this thread without anyone knocking them for what they find enjoyable. If someone likes buckets for pockets because they feel it makes the game more exciting, then there is no need for anyone to rag on them or try and ridicule them for what they find exciting. Watching pool, just like listening to commentators, or buying a particular cue, or which game someone likes the most, or what stroke they use, or whether they bet or not or whatever..... are all personal preferences. To each, their own. I say, let's respect that, in this thread at least:D

I know Justin stated several times that they are moving away from the long race formats. That in the near future they will be letting everyone know what kind of format they will be moving to. But I can assure you that anyone with any business sense, would welcome people discussing what they find enjoyable and therefore something they may buy. Getting feedback from your potential customers or current customers, is very important to a business owner. Whether those ideas are feasible or not, is another story.

So use this thread to express what you would find ideal to watch or buy. At the same time, maybe indicate what range you would still watch or buy a pool stream. Indicate that you would primarily wish it could be this, but you would still watch this or this, but you would NOT watch this.

I think that would be extremely helpful to TAR. These thoughts I am expressing, are mine, so I'm not speaking for anyone else except myself here.:smile:
 
"CaliRed". said:
I think TAR would appreciate everyone's view on what interests that particular person. There is no right or wrong answer here. Each person, as a individual, has something that they feel they would most be entertained with. Hopefully this thread can stay on track and not become a "Who I would like to see play" thread. There's already one or two of those going on.

If each person indicates what "does it for them", then obviously there might be 50 different productions after it's all said and done. We all know that they can't have 50 different productions, so then in my mind, it would come down to finding the common things that people are interested in. Then a person would have to weigh in whether those are feasible to do.

Justin knows he can't please everyone and there will always be people that are unhappy with what's being presented to them. But the important thing is, I think, that everyone does have something that they like, and one should feel comfortable stating that in this thread without anyone knocking them for what they find enjoyable. If someone likes buckets for pockets because they feel it makes the game more exciting, then there is no need for anyone to rag on them or try and ridicule them for what they find exciting. Watching pool, just like listening to commentators, or buying a particular cue, or which game someone likes the most, or what stroke they use, or whether they bet or not or whatever..... are all personal preferences. To each, their own. I say, let's respect that, in this thread at least:D

I know Justin stated several times that they are moving away from the long race formats. That in the near future they will be letting everyone know what kind of format they will be moving to. But I can assure you that anyone with any business sense, would welcome people discussing what they find enjoyable and therefore something they may buy. Getting feedback from your potential customers or current customers, is very important to a business owner. Whether those ideas are feasible or not, is another story.

So use this thread to express what you would find ideal to watch or buy. At the same time, maybe indicate what range you would still watch or buy a pool stream. Indicate that you would primarily wish it could be this, but you would still watch this or this, but you would NOT watch this.

I think that would be extremely helpful to TAR. These thoughts I am expressing, are mine, so I'm not speaking for anyone else except myself here.:smile:
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Umm, thanks, dad...


Eric
 
I've always like statistics. I guess I am a product of the TV sports producitons. The more stats the better.

Pool, IMO, is missing this area for building a bigger fan base.
How many people know off hand, who is the 3rd ranked player in the USA?

Without looking it up, who is the points leader for the USA Mosconi team?

TAR has great production value and I will continue to enjoy the free and PPV events of the future.

GREAT work on the SVB vrs. Alex P TAR21
 
RunoutJJ said:
Just for the record most pro strictly play on tables with 4 1/2" pockets and not 4". 4" pockets are ridiculous and only really good for one-pocket IMHO...
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There's a big difference between 4" pockets and 4 1/8" pockets. For the record again, the rails on the TAR21 table had 4 1/8" corner pockets, not the 4" corner pockets that most seem to think this table had. The match turned out great, as expected, neither player had a complaint about each other, the TAR pit, the table...or any other conditions. Justin did a great job, as with everyone else who supported this event, yet it's still not good enough for the railbirds.

It's always the railbirds that complain, tighter pockets, bigger pockets, faster cloth, slower cloth, better lighting...whatever, yet not one of the railbirds play at the level of expertise that they expect the Pro's to play at, yet they seem to never be pleased to watch what they just did, without complaining about something.


Glen
 
I watched all 3 days of the match, until I fell asleep about 1 AM that is...

My thoughts:

1) Pockets were too tight: Play on both day 1 & 2 was significantly less interesting due to the difficult pockets. Having said that, Shane owned that table on day 3 . . . Overall, I would rather see 4.5" pockets and multiple packages than frustrated players struggling on 4.125" pockets.

2) Commentating was good. Mixing stories in with the play-by-play definitely adds value.

3) I like the races to 100, but I can certainly see the benefits to 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 5 sets racing to 25 or so. I would support that.

4) The score banner at the bottom of the screen was anoying to me. I watched the match on a 58" plasma, and as many know, if an image stays on a plasma screen too long, it will burn into the display. This is why networks who display their logo in the bottom corner of the screen make them light and rather transparent. Frankly, I didn't think that score banner is needed, given that the score is displayed on a large flat screen right behind the table. However, if someone feels it's needed, it could be put on-screen between racks, and then taken off screen during play. My TV thanks you. :)

5) I like when the commentators can see/read the chat during the match. It gives them the opportunity to answer questions if they choose to do so.

6) I enjoy listening to the music as well as listening to the commentary, and the music wasn't up quite loud enough for me to easily hear. Guess I could just turn on my own though . . .

The production on this match was EXCELLENT! Keep up the good work!
 
Stream was awesome! I recommend an instant replay feature. It was great during the Turning Stone stream, to be able to get another look at some sick shots
 
realkingcobra said:
There's a big difference between 4" pockets and 4 1/8" pockets. For the record again, the rails on the TAR21 table had 4 1/8" corner pockets, not the 4" corner pockets that most seem to think this table had. The match turned out great, as expected, neither player had a complaint about each other, the TAR pit, the table...or any other conditions. Justin did a great job, as with everyone else who supported this event, yet it's still not good enough for the railbirds.

It's always the railbirds that complain, tighter pockets, bigger pockets, faster cloth, slower cloth, better lighting...whatever, yet not one of the railbirds play at the level of expertise that they expect the Pro's to play at, yet they seem to never be pleased to watch what they just did, without complaining about something.


Glen
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It's called an O-P-I-N-I-O-N. We are on a F-O-R-U-M, where we often exchange I-D-E-A-S.

Aren't you just complaining about the complaining railbirds? I guess you have the right to complain since you are a top-notch table mechanic/railbird...scratch that....since you are THE top-notch table mechanic/railbird.
 
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