tight pockets bad for pool?

[jalapus logan]

Just so you know....they WERE playing on a Diamond Professional...with 4.5 pockets and what made the difference in how fast that match went....if you didn't notice...was WINNER BREAKS!

It looks like I accidentally posted another excellent match by mistake (I was browsing with multiple tabs and posted a different link. Here is the one that I meant to post:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHQw9T5uvyk

Man, I love those old school matches. Both of these matches are great viewing for those who have not seen them.

Cheers all...

 

[realkingcobra]

And Earl is playing, he gets into his groove and goes.

Alternating breaks is like some kind of handicapping rule taken out of a page of the APA rule book for Pro's....it's BS, that's one of, if not the single most stupid rule change I've ever heard of....because it breaks ANY players stride from ultimately running out on their opponet...which is what pool at the highest level is really all about....and THAT'S what people want to see...not this BS of having to break up the back to back run-outs!

 

[realkingcobra]

It looks like I accidentally posted another excellent match by mistake (I was browsing with multiple tabs and posted a different link. Here is the one that I meant to post:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHQw9T5uvyk

Man, I love those old school matches. Both of these matches are great viewing for those who have not seen them.

Cheers all...

Did you notice how fast the pace was?...Winner breaks...again!

 

[jalapus logan]

Did you notice how fast the pace was?...Winner breaks...again!

Maybe that is the ticket. Alternating breaks makes it tougher for a player to find the zone.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Are we talking about the fast pace of the US Open?

 

[Celtic]

Why do I mention any of this? Because if no one is interested in increasing the popularity of pool, then all of this jibber jabber about pocket sizes and specs become a moot point. Just go read the Room Owner Discussion subforum here. It's not a pretty sight. Rooms all over the nation are closing. Those that are left are having a tough go of it. I don't even go to the room I mentioned above anymore, by the way.

So, let's not talk about pocket size anymore. Let's try to promote the game we all love. If we can't do that, then we will all have to change our handles to basementdweller...

Yeah but it is not tighter pockets that caused the current state of pool. It is in fact not the tables at all if you truly want to get into it. It was crappy promotion and marketing of the sport through the entire 1980's when pool had a reasonable chance for a resurgence due to increasing media.

And what were we watching on TV when we "did" get to see pool on TV during that era? Pros palying on tables with huge pockets and Joe 5-pack sitting there watching it said to himself "hmmph, I can do that" and the sport plummeted further. The 1980's and much of the 1990's had huge pockets and that time period is one of nothing but a downward spiral in the popularity of this sport.

One of the key problems in this sport is we don't have a Tiger Woods, we don't have Federer, we don't have a Mosconi even. Sports tend to live and die on their stars and the accomplishments of those people. Look at hockey and what a person like Crosby does for the sport. Or what Jordan did for basketball, or Tiger and his huge factor in the rise of golf's popularity as he rose to dominate that sport.

THIS is what pool is missing and the reason this sport cannot create someone like that is because the games we play and the tables we play them on are too easy to a point that luck on the breaks and whoever gets out of the gate is the biggest factor of who wins a match, not the truly better player. And you want to make the tables easier? That is simply going to make it harder yet for the true top talents of this sport to fade the rubs and rolls and dominate the sport and become that iconic figure of the sport that in turn leads to people taking notice.

The whole thought that larger pockets are going to make the sport more popular is flat out wrong. Larger pockets were the norm for TV matches while the sports popularity went into the toilet. larger pockets will do the reverse of what you are talking about and be one of the last nails drove into the coffin.

 

[twocardchris]

i agree , bring back winner breaks , much more exciting

 

[Celtic]

i agree , bring back winner breaks , much more exciting

It "can" be more exciting. That is IF the conditions are properly difficult to make a match between two "top" players showcase "both" of their games and see who comes out the better on that day.

More often then not on a loose playing table you get two champs like Orcullo vs Souquet and it will be an unfotunate kissed in cueball on a break or a dry break that causes a 11-1 score on the match with a 7 pack and a 4 pack being the 2 turns at the table for the winner.

The score does not at all represent how even that match actually is, it does not properly assess which player is in fact better. Instead it simply tells you which player did not get a bad rub and get steamrolled by a guy doing the exact same thing the loser could have done equally well had the misfortune been reversed.

When the above takes place it bores me, it is a pointless match, I don't know why anyone would want to watch a 1-2 hour long coin flip.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Alternating breaks is like some kind of handicapping rule taken out of a page of the APA rule book for Pro's....it's BS,

This is incorrect. Alternating breaks is more advantagous to the superior player than winner breaks. This is not IMO. It is fact.

This is off topic. I will save this for another day in another thread.

 

[Celtic]

This is incorrect. Alternating breaks as more advantagous to the superior player than winner breaks. This is not IMO. It is fact.

That is 100% true on a table with looser pockets. On a tighter table it starts to lessen as the lower rank player is not going to have the skills to keep the superior player in their chair and as long as both players are getting multiple innings in the match the talent and skill should prevail.

On a looser table the superior players get more and more into coil flips against players they are clearly better then because of the lesser talent and skill requirements on a looser table.

AKA I would have a reasonable chance to beat a pro in a race to 11 on a valley bar box playing 9-ball. I would be SOL in the same game on a 9-foot with 4 1/4 inch pockets.

 

[realkingcobra]

This is incorrect. Alternating breaks as more advantagous to the superior player than winner breaks. This is not IMO. It is fact.

This is off topic. I will save this for another day in another thread.

OH really? Well...when the Olympics start running the 100m sprint to determine the fasted man on the planet....in 10m sprints...then adding up the total of 10 sprint times to determine the fastest man alive....I don't think anyone will be interested in watching that kind of sprint running any time soon. There's something exciting to be said about a player that can keep his/her opponent in their chair the entire match....wouldn't you say? Or how about...."damn....how many racks can he run in a row?"....when that ability dissapeared....so did the viewers!....left with only pool players to watch...which is not what public viewing is all about. You want sponsors...then you MUST have viewers period, and the more viewers there are...the better it looks to a sponsor that has something to sell. If Nike relied on pool players alone to sell shoes to....they'd be BROKE....just like most all pool players!

Glen

 

[BRKNRUN]

This is incorrect. Alternating breaks as more advantagous to the superior player than winner breaks. This is not IMO. It is fact.

This is off topic. I will save this for another day in another thread.

How in the world would giving up the break be more advantagous to the superior player in 9-ball or 10-ball?

The break is of huge importance.....If it was not....Players that win the lag or coin toss would opt for the "other" person to break.

Why would you ever WANT to give up control of the table...even on the break....unless you were playing some fish that you are trying to keep on the line.

 

[Bigtruck]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. It's not the size of the pockets, the kind of cloth, cushions...or even the tables that is killing this sport...it's the rules!!!

Look, people that don't know a damn thing about boxing, or the ART of it, are switching to MMA fighting....because it's REAL. I understand the "Safety" play in pool....but to a novice audience....it's boring. Pool needs to drop all safety play in 9 & 10 ball and go for your hole...ALL out, if you want to make it more exciting for viewers, and increase attendance! But, most of you are so stuck on the "ART" of pool, that you're missing out on the "ALL OUT WAR" in a match between players. As I've said before, award multiple wins in the game, make the races longer, single enemination....and go for the win....over power your opponent, beat him down....make it a slugfest....but get RID of the safeties all together in rotation games. No one wants to watch a 26 mile marathon, except marathon runners, but they love watching who the FASTEST man on the planet is in a 100 meter dash!!!!

Glen

Glen

I agree with Glen.

Slow play is also killing pool. No one wants to see someone taking 45 sec to a minute on every shot and then after they measure every conceivable path, then hit it bad. Hell, even if they hit it good, who cares because we are asleep.

10 sec shot clock and no safeties. Ship it!

Ray

 

[scrappy]

OH really? Well...when the Olympics start running the 100m sprint to determine the fasted man on the planet....in 10m sprints...then adding up the total of 10 sprint times to determine the fastest man alive....I don't think anyone will be interested in watching that kind of sprint running any time soon. There's something exciting to be said about a player that can keep his/her opponent in their chair the entire match....wouldn't you say? Or how about...."damn....how many racks can he run in a row?"....when that ability dissapeared....so did the viewers!....left with only pool players to watch...which is not what public viewing is all about. You want sponsors...then you MUST have viewers period, and the more viewers there are...the better it looks to a sponsor that has something to sell. If Nike relied on pool players alone to sell shoes to....they'd be BROKE....just like most all pool players!

Glen

this is true ...

 

[Celtic]

There's something exciting to be said about a player that can keep his/her opponent in their chair the entire match....wouldn't you say?

No, it is one of the worst elements of this game atm. I like to see a battle between two people. Not a exhibition by one with the opponent having lost a lag and never getting to shoot. That is not exciting, especially when I watched Johnny Archer do it pattern racking his own 9-ball racks and running 7 packs where every ball in the rack went into the same pocket in every friggin game.

Trust me, that was not exciting.

 

[The Renfro]

No, it is one of the worst elements of this game atm. I like to see a battle between two people. Not a exhibition by one with the opponent having lost a lag and never getting to shoot. That is not exciting, especially when I watched Johnny Archer do it pattern racking his own 9-ball racks and running 7 packs where every ball in the rack went into the same pocket in every friggin game.

Trust me, that was not exciting.

I think we must find different things exciting then. I find perfect pool the epitome of what to strive for and when someone takes control like that to me it's mesmerizing.

It's what I want to be able to do.

I am betting whoever Johnny was sticking it to will go home and work on the lag for hours LOL.

Best line I ever heard I think may be attributed to Shannon Dalton. Someone can correct me if I am wrong.

Shannon supposedly lost the coin flip and someone ran the set out on him. Someone asked him after the match what happened and he said "I dogged the coin flip"

I am pretty sure he wasn't happy about it but the humor in that statement tells me the pros understand and don't have the same issue as you do with the formats.

 

[realkingcobra]

No, it is one of the worst elements of this game atm. I like to see a battle between two people. Not a exhibition by one with the opponent having lost a lag and never getting to shoot. That is not exciting, especially when I watched Johnny Archer do it pattern racking his own 9-ball racks and running 7 packs where every ball in the rack went into the same pocket in every friggin game.

Trust me, that was not exciting.

Then stop the double elimination tournaments, and make the damn races to 21 games...and if ANY person on this planet can achieve a break and run of 21 straight games in a row....just call the tournament off...because he deserves to take first place on that accomplishment alone! But until then, I'd like to SEE just how many racks the best on this planet can put together...THAT'S how you determine WHO the BEST player in the world is....NOT by making the pockets tighter...or complaining about pattern racking....or perfect racking...or any thing else. If the OTHER player can't keep up in the fast lane...then get out of the way for the player that can! Nothing is STOPPING the opponent from putting together a 10 pack of their own....except SKILL...and the determination to WIN.

Glen

 

[BasementDweller]

Then stop the double elimination tournaments, and make the damn races to 21 games...and if ANY person on this planet can achieve a break and run of 21 straight games in a row....just call the tournament off...because he deserves to take first place on that accomplishment alone! But until then, I'd like to SEE just how many racks the best on this planet can put together...THAT'S how you determine WHO the BEST player in the world is....NOT by making the pockets tighter...or complaining about pattern racking....or perfect racking...or any thing else. If the OTHER player can't keep up in the fast lane...then get out of the way for the player that can! Nothing is STOPPING the opponent from putting together a 10 pack of their own....except SKILL...and the determination to WIN.

Glen

Now you're talking. I have always thought the problem with pool was the fact that they have these stupid race to 7 or 9 formats. I have always felt this was a joke for the top players. I think there are probably several hundred if not more than a thousand people in this country that could beat someone as good as SVB in a race to 9 in nineball. What a great way to make a living. To me this is the equivalent of Tiger Woods having to play a club pro 3 holes on their home course. It is impossible to create a mystique around a player that could be the best in the world but doesn't really get to prove it.

If you want to improve pool have some invitational tournaments. Invite only the best 16 players. Then have them play some long races. Don't worry about trying to fit the whole thing into a 1 hour slate. Show the highlights and bring us the live action at 13-15 in a race to 21 or 25. This is never going to happen on ESPN. Although I could see a channel like VS doing something like this. Add in some background info on the players and then you might have something to build on.

If you ask me, pocket size doesn't have much to do with pools problems. The trouble has been the combination of TV and Nine-ball, and the way the powers that be have attempted to package it. IMHO.

Chris

 

[Jarryd]

There are plenty of shots I've seen watching 9-ball that just look cheap. Maybe cause I grew up playing on a table with tight pockets.

For example a ball is frozen on the rail and the player makes the hit, the ball on the rail comes AWAY from the rail and then catches the corner of the pocket and goes in anyway. Normally on table with tight pockets, hitting it down the rail - unless the ball follows dead along the rail the ball is going to miss.

When shots like that are made, I'm surprised the players aren't taking on more aggressive shots considering how balls just luck there way in.

 

[jalapus logan]

Then stop the double elimination tournaments, and make the damn races to 21 games...and if ANY person on this planet can achieve a break and run of 21 straight games in a row....just call the tournament off...because he deserves to take first place on that accomplishment alone! But until then, I'd like to SEE just how many racks the best on this planet can put together...THAT'S how you determine WHO the BEST player in the world is....NOT by making the pockets tighter...or complaining about pattern racking....or perfect racking...or any thing else. If the OTHER player can't keep up in the fast lane...then get out of the way for the player that can! Nothing is STOPPING the opponent from putting together a 10 pack of their own....except SKILL...and the determination to WIN.

Glen

I think that you summed it up perfectly and we now have a winner!