tight pockets bad for pool?

Jarryd said:
There are plenty of shots I've seen watching 9-ball that just look cheap. Maybe cause I grew up playing on a table with tight pockets.

For example a ball is frozen on the rail and the player makes the hit, the ball on the rail comes AWAY from the rail and then catches the corner of the pocket and goes in anyway. Normally on table with tight pockets, hitting it down the rail - unless the ball follows dead along the rail the ball is going to miss.

When shots like that are made, I'm surprised the players aren't taking on more aggressive shots considering how balls just luck there way in.
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You know what...for the last 100 years...the best players in the world have missed shots on tables with 5" corner pockets! When in life...have you EVER heard of a player....that NEVER....and I mean NEVER missed a shot? I'll tell you something....if there EVER was such a player, pool would have DIED a long time ago...because why would anyone ever want to play....if this certain player NEVER missed a ball?

Willie Hoppe was such a player in billiards in his day...and you know what happened because of his great skills at billiards??????...Pocket pool was born, because no one wanted to play billiards anymore because they couldn't win....so, they turned to a new game called "pocket billiards"

So, who...is so good in "Pocket billiards" to have that same effect?..No one, so pocket size don't really matter any more....because EVERYONE misses....even the best of the best. So, now we tighten the game up a little to 4 1/2" corner pockets....great:D...but then we add in all these stupid rules...for the players that have NO chance of winning....so they will still put up their entry fees....(where do you think most of the prize money comes from)...and feel like they can compete with the best! And to make it even more "FAIR" for the players that can't win....at least give them their moneys worth....let them break at least every other game so they at least feel like they got a chance to play for their entry fee money!!!

I'll tell you what....if there ever was a skill level test in order to determine who was going to play in a "PRO" event....most ALL...of the players you see "Filling" the tournament score sheets today....wouldn't make the "CUT"...which is WHY pool hasn't gone anywhere....NO ONE KNOWS WHO THE PRO'S ARE!

Pool....has turned into nothing but a sport for a bunch of cry babies....wanting to play with the real Pro's of this sport...instead of creating a system that would at least identify who the Pro's really are...and sit back and watch them play this sport at the highest level possible!!!...No....today, we're forced to watch a bunch of players that have no business in a Pro event....get in the way of this being a real sport....by insisting...they get shots...can't pattern rack the balls....can't use magic racks...or any other kind of racks that would allow a Pro to leave tennis shoe track marks up one side of you and down the other....letting you know just where you stand....as a wanna be Pro!!!

Bullshit rules....THAT is what's killing this sport....along with the couch potato Pro's...who have no business being there....other than the fact that the "sponsors"....need THEIR entry fee money to even pull off the tournaments in the first place!!! All pool tournaments are today...is one big ring game for the cash!

Glen
 
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Want another example of how "pool players" are killing this sport? In most areas anymore that hold pool tournaments..."Pro's" defined by who ever's in charge of the tournement....are getting bared from the tournaments more and more all the time...why?....because then "we" wouldn't get a chance to "win"....because "he's" a "Pro"...YET...everone of them chickenshits....gets to pay an entry fee to play in a "Pro" event any time they want to put up the entry fee money...why in the hell is that? I feel that if it's OK to bar "Pro's" from local tournaments....then why wouldn't it be OK to bar "amateurs" from so called "Pro" events?...OH..I forgot...entry fee money from the chickens is needed to fee the wolves...that's right;)

Glen
 
realkingcobra said:
You know what...for the last 100 years...the best players in the world have missed shots on tables with 5" corner pockets! When in life...have you EVER heard of a player....that NEVER....and I mean NEVER missed a shot? I'll tell you something....if there EVER was such a player, pool would have DIED a long time ago...because why would anyone ever want to play....if this certain player NEVER missed a ball?

Willy Hoppy was such a player in billiards in his day...and you know what happened because of his great skills at billiards??????...Pocket pool was born, because no one wanted to play billiards anymore because they couldn't win....so, they turned to a new game called "pocket billiards"

So, who...is so good in "Pocket billiards" to have that same effect?..No one, so pocket size don't really matter any more....because EVERYONE misses....even the best of the best. So, now we tighten the game up a little to 4 1/2" corner pockets....great:D...but then we add in all these stupid rules...for the players that have NO chance of winning....so they will still put up their entry fees....(where do you think most of the prize money comes from)...and feel like they can compete with the best! And to make it even more "FAIR" for the players that can't win....at least give them their moneys worth....let them break at least every other game so they at least feel like they got a chance to play for their entry fee money!!!

I'll tell you what....if there ever was a skill level test in order to determine who was going to play in a "PRO" event....most ALL...of the players you see "Filling" the tournament score sheets today....wouldn't make the "CUT"...which is WHY pool hasn't gone anywhere....NO ONE KNOWS WHO THE PRO'S ARE!

Pool....has turned into nothing but a sport for a bunch of cry babies....wanting to play with the real Pro's of this sport...instead of creating a system that would at least identify who the Pro's really are...and sit back and watch them play this sport at the highest level possible!!!...No....today, we're forced to watch a bunch of players that have no business in a Pro event....get in the way of this being a real sport....by insisting...they get shots...can't pattern rack the balls....can't use magic racks...or any other kind of racks that would allow a Pro to leave tennis shoe track marks up one side of you and down the other....letting you know just where you stand....as a wanna be Pro!!!

Bullshit rules....THAT is what's killing this sport....along with the couch potato Pro's...who have no business being there....other than the fact that the "sponsors"....need THEIR entry fee money to even pull off the tournaments in the first place!!! All pool tournaments are today...is one big ring game for the cash!

Glen
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There are "pro's" who play pool for a living? I did not know that. I've never met a pool player who had any money...
 
Cobra, i like that term Couchpotatopro. It reminds me of keyboardpro, and keyboardwarrior. Seems like there are many unknown champions on here who like tight pockets. So they think anyone can put racks together on buckets, which they consider bigger than 4 1/2. They say to get better you have to play better players, so, i would like to play everyone on here a 500.00 set who likes tight pockets. Don't know if i would really learn anything, but i know i would make one hell of a score!
 
TigtPockets0003.jpg


I haven't read the whole of this thread, and I don't want to hijack it, but I wonder if the solution to the original topic could come in the form of a temporary pocket tightening system like our new ProPockets©
 
realkingcobra said:
I don't think most players on here even know what "push out" 9 ball is:grin:...you didn't play "duck":grin::grin:
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Hey Glen,

What about a scratch on 9 ball, when making a ball? Ball in hand... behind the head string with object ball on the spot. Spot shots were like free throws.
 
Big Dave said:
I haven't read the whole of this thread, and I don't want to hijack it, but I wonder if the solution to the original topic could come in the form of a temporary pocket tightening system like our new ProPockets©
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No, that's not the solution to tighter pockets, that's just a gimmick to take advantage of someone who's to cheap to have the proper work done to their pool table to correctly tighten the pockets up to 4.5" and CORRECT the pocket angles that are wrong in the first place. All your product would do is enhance what is already wrong with the pockets and make them tighter. I wonder how they'd look or work when the cloth is so loose in the pockets that they'd be moving all over the place....kind of like loose facings moving around under the rail cloth?;) Think about a table that has 4 different corner pocket openings...will your product correct that and make them all the same tightness?

Glen
 
johnqbs said:
i to have thought of the same thing about pocket size. i think a table should be desirable to play on. if you earn a ball like to see it drop
if you miss just go and sit down . what i think a pocket size should be
is no larger than 4 1/2 no smaller than 4 1/4 with about 1 1/2 shelf
that makes for a fair playing table. i built my own table the jon bilt.
take a look at table and pocket size. it is a true 7 ft. 42x84 has a good roll
plays fine. trying to add pic. pockets on the jon bilt are 4 3/8 point to point. 4 center to center of faceing. shelf is 1 1/2 deep .
take care, john qbs
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You made a good first attempt at building your own pool table, my hats off to you. I know what it's like to build pool tables as I've personally hand built over 500 tables during my time building pool tables, plus another 128 coin-operated pool tables. One thing to keep in mind when building pool tables is that all 4 corner pockets are suppose to turn out the same, as in a mirror image of each other. In the pictures you posted, in one corner pocket you have the pocket miter cut bisecting the finish of the rails at the same point on both sides, while in another picture of a corner pocket you can see that you cut about 3/8" of the corner of the rail finish off leaving that right side of the pocket much longer than the left side of the pocket, so I kind of doubt your corner pockets are all 4 the same;) Pockets are measured in the opening from point to point, then the miter cue of the pocket determines the throat opening once finished. There is no specific pocket throat opening that is measured in as a target size of throat before the pocket miters are cut....as one way determines the other, meaning if you cut the pocket by miter, then that miter determines the width of the throat. If you cut by a specific throat measurement...then that measurement determines the miter after the fact.

Glen
 
It would be helpful in this discussion to determine what perspective everyone is working from. From my perspective, I think that the Diamond pro table with 4.5" pockets is neither tight nor loose, but just about right. 4" to me would be quite tight and 5" to me would be quite loose. I may give some preference to playing 14.1 on a "looser" table according to my scale.

What do you guys consider tight or loose? Keep in mind some of RKC's comments regarding pocket angles, shelf, etc. Playing "tight" or "loose" does not depend on pocket width alone.
 
OK, here's the thing. At the Cue Club in Vegas, ten of the GC III tables have been reworked to four inch pockets plus or minus a hair. If you hit a ball in the pocket, it goes. If you miss by an inch or two, it will depend on the speed whether it goes or not. Miss by more that that and there is no chance it will go in.

At Classic Billiards in Rochester, we have eight GC III's with nearly five inch pockets. It is possible to hit a ball directly into the pocket and it will rattle out. It is possible to miss a ball by a diamond and it will go in. On some of the tables you can not make a ball in a side pocket more than 45 degrees off axis unless slow rolled.

To me, the size of the pocket is much less important than the shape. Wrong is wrong. Period! Problem is, what is right?

Lyn
 
jalapus logan said:
It would be helpful in this discussion to determine what perspective everyone is working from. From my perspective, I think that the Diamond pro table with 4.5" pockets is neither tight nor loose, but just about right. 4" to me would be quite tight and 5" to me would be quite loose. I may give some preference to playing 14.1 on a "looser" table according to my scale.

What do you guys consider tight or loose? Keep in mind some of RKC's comments regarding pocket angles, shelf, etc. Playing "tight" or "loose" does not depend on pocket width alone.
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My perspective is as a room owner. If the objective is to make the game harder, make a bigger table (10', 12'). Don't tighten the pockets. A shot should be the same no matter what size the table is. Change the pocket size and the game gets changed and that is bad. Golf does this. They keep the size of the hole and lengthen the course. Baseball does the same. Standardize a golf hole, home plate, and a pocket. One size fits all. This is good for the game. Everyone can relate to this.

My goal is to get people interested in playing pool. I exist in the trenches. Around here, there is little interest in what the pros do. They are irrelevant. They can play Ten-Ball with little pockets. No one watches and no one cares. My customers can't relate to it. Tighten the pockets on all my tables and my place goes broke.

I will say it again: Tighter pockets mean more safeties, slower play, and more misses. I don't want this.
 
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Paul Schofield said:
My perspective is as a room owner. If the objective is to make the game harder, make a bigger table (10', 12'). Don't tighten the pockets. A shot should be the same no matter what size the table is. Change the pocket size and the game gets changed and that is bad. Golf does this. They keep the size of the hole and lengthen the course. Baseball does the same. Standardize a golf hole, home plate, and a pocket. One size fits all. This is good for the game.

My goal is to get people interested in playing pool. I exist in the trenches. Around here, there is little interest in what the pros do. They are irrelevant. They can play Ten-Ball with little pockets. No one watches and no one cares. My customers can't relate to it. Tighten the pockets on all my tables and my place goes broke.

I will say it again: Tighter pockets mean more safeties, slower play, and more misses. I don't want this.
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That's what I've been saying for years. Take GC's for example, the pocket castings are all the same size in the throats of the pockets, so...when Brunswick sells the tables with 5" corner pockets...the miter cuts of the pockets have to be widened in order to get to the 5" pocket opening...in doing that, that also sets the pocket to reject a lot of shots that would have normally gone into the pocket had the pocket been 4 1/2" with Pro spec's...because of the miter angles used in the factory settings...they deflect the object balls across the pocket to rattle out...instead of deeper into the back of the pocket. It's not the straight in shots that determine how a pocket plays...it's the shots that were hit good...that should have gone in...that didn't...that determine how a table really plays.

Easy way to test this is to take 4 balls, line them up in a frozen combination and shoot them into the pockets from all different angles and watch the reactions of the pockets...watch what goes in...and what comes back out. Then try making the same shots with just the cue ball and one object ball. If you can't repeat the same shots using one ball...thne it's the shooter's fault, but if the 4 ball combination that gets rejected....then it's the design of the pocket...or you tried to make an impossible shot from an angle that wouldn't have gone in the first place...if you tried the same shot with different speeds and it still wouldn't go in.

Glen
 
Take 3 different tables, a Diamond with 4 1/2" pockets, a GC with 4" pockets, and an Olhausen with 4 1/2" pockets.

Set up a 4 ball combination near the head end of the table, place the 4 balls an inch off the side rail...aiming the combination to just graze the cushion about 6 inch's up the rail from the corner pocket. Now, shoot that shot 10 times in a row and what you'll find out is that on the Diamond it'll go with a medium stroke 10 out of 10 times, on the GC...it'll miss the pocket 10 out of 10 times, and on the Olhausen it'll reject the ball out of the pocket 10 out of 10 times....you figure out why....I already know the why!

Glen
 
realkingcobra said:
That's what I've been saying for years. Take GC's for example, the pocket castings are all the same size in the throats of the pockets, so...when Brunswick sells the tables with 5" corner pockets...the miter cuts of the pockets have to be widened in order to get to the 5" pocket opening...in doing that, that also sets the pocket to reject a lot of shots that would have normally gone into the pocket had the pocket been 4 1/2" with Pro spec's...because of the miter angles used in the factory settings...they deflect the object balls across the pocket to rattle out...instead of deeper into the back of the pocket. It's not the straight in shots that determine how a pocket plays...it's the shots that were hit good...that should have gone in...that didn't...that determine how a table really plays.

Easy way to test this is to take 4 balls, line them up in a frozen combination and shoot them into the pockets from all different angles and watch the reactions of the pockets...watch what goes in...and what comes back out. Then try making the same shots with just the cue ball and one object ball. If you can't repeat the same shots using one ball...thne it's the shooter's fault, but if the 4 ball combination that gets rejected....then it's the design of the pocket...or you tried to make an impossible shot from an angle that wouldn't have gone in the first place...if you tried the same shot with different speeds and it still wouldn't go in.

Glen
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Thanks for stating this. I thought I was crazy when I started learning to read pockets by the way the pocket cuts are made. Your statement confirms what I was noticing in comparing pocket cuts on the various table where I play.

This place has three types of table, friendly, mean and down right mean, all 9 ft GCIII. The friendly tables have wider pockets than in the pic I posted. On these table, there is a greater margin of error for pocketing but I also noticed that if I hit the pocket the same way, meaning where I hit and how hard, as I did on the pockets in the pics, the ball would rattle and split out, followed by a snicker from the table.

Oh, tighter pockets does not automaticly mean more safety's. For me, how tight the pocket is plays very little in my shot making. I'm there to ran out if possible and make my opponent realize I'm there to play and play aggressively.

It kinda makes them sweat more, especially if they leave you a real hard safe, so they think, and you make it. Usually, when this happens, the person is standing at the table anticipating a quick return to the table. I love it when the shot is made and they turn and go sit down and watch me run out.

It ain't the table that makes the player.
 
The Renfro said:
I think we must find different things exciting then. I find perfect pool the epitome of what to strive for and when someone takes control like that to me it's mesmerizing.
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Playing perfect "anything" requires that there is sufficient challenge in the act to begin with. Watching Tiger Woods play his best at Augusta with lightning fast greens and tough fairways is amazing. Watching him play perfect at the Tropical Oasis Mini Putt on I-15, not so much.

This thread is about playing on easier conditions where playing "perfect" is not as meaningful as if it were done on tougher equipment.

If the conditions are tough enough that running big packages truly becomes rare then yeah, I am all excited to watch that too. But watching a US Open where the top 20 guys all running huge packages lessens the wonder and excitement of the act to a huge degree.
 
realkingcobra said:
But until then, I'd like to SEE just how many racks the best on this planet can put together...THAT'S how you determine WHO the BEST player in the world is....NOT by making the pockets tighter...or complaining about pattern racking....or perfect racking...or any thing else.

Glen
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OK so lets throw all the pros onto an 8 foot table with 6 inch pockets, let them pattern rack to their hearts content and watch them run countless racks. Sounds real fun, don't mind me if I dont buy the DVD.
 
Celtic you are 100% right in my opinion.
When Efren run 9 rack at the 1999 wpc semifinal it was amazing because it was done under huge pressure. The table played a little easier than today tables but noone run 8-9 rack in that tournament and because of this was amazing.
We have seen in the last us open, big packages together, pattern racking, lots of 9 ball on the break. Why it is so exiting when you know if the other guy has a chance he would do the same thing? And even 20 other players?
You see a lot of run because the conditions were easy. You know why make a 147 is so exiting? Because it is really hard and you don't see a 147 every time.
 
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