Tired of hearing about lessons...

[Dr_CollieCue]

I understood the OP to be trying to generate more discussion and perspectives in the forum by avoid the simple answer of go get lessons. He acknowledges that lessons are worthwhile, but that reactive advice simply to go get lessons is killing some valuable discussions that might otherwise have occurred.

 

[Shooter08]

Lessons "pun intended" learned!

I understood the OP to be trying to generate more discussion and perspectives in the forum by avoid the simple answer of go get lessons. He acknowledges that lessons are worthwhile, but that reactive advice simply to go get lessons is killing some valuable discussions that might otherwise have occurred.

I have tried the incite the crowd tactic before on AZ, it doesn't seem to get actual results. Unfortunately neither does being nice, majority of the time. This site has more information on it then you will find elsewhere, in the spirit of AZ, learn how to "search". If you do and don't find a answer, someone will have one. It just may not be the one you are looking for or in the form you desire. GLWS.. I wish I would of found this site along time ago. Oh btw Scott than Geno...in that order...not the opposite like I did.

 

[jeffj2h]

Quick someone post a video and put it on Facebook. Title it "He took lessons and did drills. You won't believe what happened next!"

 

[Straightpool_99]

Scott, I am not against lessons in any way. I am against everyone simply recommending lessons in the forum as a response to every question anyone has. Yes, I asked for a qualified instructor and the only recommendations I got were from guys that were 2 hours away from Cleveland...no thanks. I didnt mean to start a huge debate on whether or not lessons are good. Unless you are absolutely clueless, then you should already know that lessons are a good way to improve. But what's so wrong with asking a question on a forum and getting a beneficial answer without paying for an instructor??

I agree, it's a cop-out. Some times people will say stuff like: "I miss long shots, what am I doing wrong?" It's pretty hard for anyone to give a good answer without that person at least putting up a video of himself playing. If he gave a bit more information, he might get more responses.

Some times the answer simply is that the person needs more practice on his fundamentals. He probably won't accept this fact unless he pays a lot of money for this opinion from an instructor. If a guy on the forum says that, he'd be likely to just blow it off. Nothing is dismissed more easily than free advice, which is why high paying consultants have such a great job. People paying through the nose will usually (but not always!) listen.

Have you ever seen a guy doing something insanely stupid and wrong in the pool hall, so bad that you just had to say something? (Like rubbing chalk on his hands instead of talc, putting a chalk piece on the floor and drilling the cue into it like he was looking for oil, jumping by scooping under the cueball, having his hand so far forward of perpendicular at adress that he has to lunge at the ball, etc.etc) I have, lots of times, but I've learned to shut up unless asked, or if it's a kid that appears serious about learning. I only let people know if I think the equipment is in danger of getting ruined. I watched once, as a national champion gave someone a very sound piece of advice, yet that person (who couldn't run 3 balls if his life depended on it) blew it off. I told him later who it was that gave the advice, but it made no impression..

 

[Shooter08]

I wish I would of taken lessons from Jerry Briesath when I started playing at about 15. Over 20 years later I took my first from a certified instructor from the Jerry tree, if I only knew than what I know now. I should of spent every penny on learning the proper way to stroke rather than saving for a fancy cue.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Once the root cause is specifically identified, it's time to elicit the .........

Well put, CJ.
Furthermore, how do we even know you and I (I'm speaking to Scott, here) are even looking at the same trees? Your trees may be tall and majestic like the mighty Sequoias, while mine, on the other hand, may be short and swarthy, like the great Western Cedar. Then there's that five ball thing again.
Holy shit, this thing has gotten way too existentialistic for me. Your turn, CJ. :smile:

Yes, there are many perspectives in developing as a pool player and an instructor. Part of being a successful gambler was the ability to "clock" a player's "speed"....this can be challenging if they player is trying to throw off, or "sandbag". The tell-tale signs are often difficult to locate, although we will recognize what we're familiar with.....it takes thousands of hours to become familiar with the kinesiology and how it's most effective.

Once the root cause is specifically identified, it's time to elicit the necessary changes.....from the ground up, not the table down.....this is vitally important to know and understand. There's 8 components that must come together for a player to have a chance to perform at their maximum potential. From my experience these must be addressed in the proper order to create synergistic improvement.

The main reason there isn't much evolution in the game's instructional side is because the game isn't in the public spotlight......therefore, there's very little incentive for anyone to get much better. Especially the league players, they are punished and may even get kicked off the team if they improve too much.

 

[Donny Lutz]

BCA instructors

What you are referring to, hang, is not an instructor giving lessons, but someone coaching the player.
Truth be told, lessons from a BCA, or any other instructor is a waste of good money.
The only real way to learn to play pool is the way Efren, Scott, Alex, and Mr. Lassiter, learned. Start young, live most of your life in a pool hall, keep your mouth shut and your eyes open, and play, practice, and play some more. A lot more.
Most of the people on this website now, unfortunately, are bangers, and leaguers, and will not get much better than they are now.

I assume from your comment about "BCA" instructors that you've met them all and watched them all teach. If not, your blanket opinion about them is no more than that...your opinion.

Not all instructors have the same amount of knowledge, wisdom or experience. Are all football, baseball or basketball coaches of equal ability? Just as players can improve over time, so can pool instructors or any other teachers of anything. When I gave my first lesson in 1965, I was clearly not qualified to call myself an instructor, but I managed a pool hall, and was asked by several customers to help them with their game. I offered what I knew, and both went on to become decent players.

So I've been helping people learn how to play pool for a rather long time, and I believe I'm a better instructor today than I was even a few weeks ago! Every time I give a lesson I learn something about teaching.

So, I personally think your condemnation of all "BCA" instructors is unfounded and unfair.

 

[u12armresl]

Forgive my ignorance, is this post coming from a guy who asks about why he can't play better based on:

balls
skid of balls
glove
tip
stick
color of cloth
lighting
lessons
a book
hand position
????

I just about agree with you here. Some people think if you miss a shot you need to spend a few hundred dollars with an instructor. Someone told me once the best lesson you can get is simply getting out into the pool rooms and playing against competition, entering tournaments, spending hours at the table, etc.

I know a lesson that covers the basics is probably good but other than that the best lessons are those learned in pool halls, pool rooms, tournaments, etc.

There used to be a lot of people on here that said you should read some silly a$$ book called Pleasures Of Small Motions, that it would help your game a great deal. What a joke that was.

r/DCP

 

[Tramp Steamer]

I assume from your comment about "BCA" instructors that you've met them all and watched them all teach. If not, your blanket opinion about them is no more than that...your opinion.

Not all instructors have the same amount of knowledge, wisdom or experience. Are all football, baseball or basketball coaches of equal ability? Just as players can improve over time, so can pool instructors or any other teachers of anything. When I gave my first lesson in 1965, I was clearly not qualified to call myself an instructor, but I managed a pool hall, and was asked by several customers to help them with their game. I offered what I knew, and both went on to become decent players.

So I've been helping people learn how to play pool for a rather long time, and I believe I'm a better instructor today than I was even a few weeks ago! Every time I give a lesson I learn something about teaching.

So, I personally think your condemnation of all "BCA" instructors is unfounded and unfair.

If you wish, you may drop the BCA label and just say instructors. It doesn't really matter.
Further, you seem to harp back to coaching and instructing as being the same. They are not.
In addition, you do not need to go through a qualifying process to instruct.
And, just for the hell of it, give me one person you've personally instructed who has risen to the pro level. One that we all know by name.
Also, don't give me that life is a journey crap.

 

[MOJOE]

Hey OP, stop reading the threads if you don't like it! What a whine-bag.

 

[KRJ]

My comment wasn't advice, lame, or otherwise. It was a statement of fact.
Most league players rarely get better. At least, to the level of local shortstops and beyond.
And, what happened to the other 10 per cent? Are they the ones who could never figure out the difference between an orange and a five ball?
There isn't enough money in the world to buy your way to the top of this game.

Most league players do NOT get lessons. Did you take that into consideration ?
Do you think Stan Shuffit's kid got lessons, can he beat just about everyone on AZB ? Yep.

I would think there are enough folks here that took lessons that would be spouting off how they got robbed, but they don't, funny how that works.

 

[Neil]

I wish I would of taken lessons from Jerry Briesath when I started playing at about 15. Over 20 years later I took my first from a certified instructor from the Jerry tree, if I only knew than what I know now. I should of spent every penny on learning the proper way to stroke rather than saving for a fancy cue.

I know one pro player that many years ago took lessons from Jerry. At the time, he thought it was a total waste of time and money and blew it all off. Today, he looks back and states that Jerry was dead on in everything he said, and the pro wishes he had listened sooner.

 

[Neil]

If you wish, you may drop the BCA label and just say instructors. It doesn't really matter.
Further, you seem to harp back to coaching and instructing as being the same. They are not.
In addition, you do not need to go through a qualifying process to instruct.
And, just for the hell of it, give me one person you've personally instructed who has risen to the pro level. One that we all know by name.
Also, don't give me that life is a journey crap.

Sounds like you are saying that unless one or two lessons bring one all the way up to pro level, they aren't worth taking. Sounds pretty naive to me.

 

[KRJ]

If you wish, you may drop the BCA label and just say instructors. It doesn't really matter.
Further, you seem to harp back to coaching and instructing as being the same. They are not.
In addition, you do not need to go through a qualifying process to instruct.
And, just for the hell of it, give me one person you've personally instructed who has risen to the pro level. One that we all know by name.
Also, don't give me that life is a journey crap.

Yes, coaching and instructing are the same. I give baseball hitting lessons, but guess what, after they leave, they say thanks "coach". And the ones that want to get better come back, hit the cages, and keep improving. Others, they think one lesson was enough, and I see them in the cages back to their old habits.... those kids are toast. They won't ever improve.

You know how many people take pool lessons and that say that want to turn "pro". Miniscule. Most of them can't afford the pay cut !!

So, comparing that to having someone turn pro means nothing. How many good HS or college coaches never had a student turn pro,,,, thousands !!

So, league players just want to get better, which means they are stuck at a level, whether it's APA 2 or APA 6, they are stuck, and they can't get better without knowing what they are doing wrong.

But you are right about one thing, you do NOT need to qualify or take a course to instruct. Many folks do, but it's more on the process, beginning, middle and end, and other teaching techniques to learn. I don't believe anyone said you had to be "certified" to coach/instruct.

 

[Spimp13]

A person doesn't need to take lessons to improve their game, however the instructors are here to try to help shorten the learning curve by giving them the proper tools to detect fundamental mistakes in their game.

If you just go to the pool hall and practice, practice, and practice you actually might be doing your game more harm then good IF (noticed I said if) you are repeatedly practicing bad fundamentals. I should know...for years I was stuck in the good ol plateau and then I got video taped by Randyg and holy cow were my fundamentals bad lol. I was a nationally locked 7 in APA 8 ball with horrible fundamentals lol! I could hit a million balls and to an extent improve on some things about my game, but not other things that were wrong and going unnoticed.

 

[jburkm002]

Why would anyone need lesson? Just join a pool forum and get 10 or more different opinion on any given topic. I have never taken lessons. I am just an average player. Pretty much played the same level all my life. Yes I have learned things along the way just from paying attention. I have learned a few things on this forum, which is not easy. I would imagine most of us have peaked in skill level. Whether you hang in pool halls, play tournaments, HAMB, watch every instructional video etc. Even the good players peak. So how do you get to the next level? How did you get to the next level? I am not talking about getting a ball or two better. I am talking about making a leap in your game.

 

[Donny Lutz]

semantics

If you wish, you may drop the BCA label and just say instructors. It doesn't really matter.
Further, you seem to harp back to coaching and instructing as being the same. They are not.
In addition, you do not need to go through a qualifying process to instruct.
And, just for the hell of it, give me one person you've personally instructed who has risen to the pro level. One that we all know by name.
Also, don't give me that life is a journey crap.

Webster's Dictionary:

coach
noun - instructor or trainer
verb - to instruct or train

instruct
to educate or edify

instructor
a teacher; one who passes on knowledge

Of course, you have every right to apply your personal definitions and opinions.

If you think that anyone who decides to call themselves an "instructor" is qualified to teach, I'd have to disagree.

Not all people seeking pool lessons have the goal of becoming a professional player. Should I stop giving lessons, because my students just want to improve their game?

I've helped hundreds of players go from stage one to being C, B and A players. Just because I may not have any students currently playing pool for a living, doesn't necessarily mean I can't be a good instructor.

You also seem to discount the fact that an instructor cannot make anyone a great player...they can only guide them on a path. It's always up to the student, - how much they want to improve and how seriously they dedicate themselves.

If you've had a negative experience with an instructor at one time, I would hope this wouldn't move you to want to hurt all instructors by insulting us as a group.

 

[StraightPoolIU]

There are a few things I find absolutely baffling about the pool culture. Most of them don't relate to the subject of this thread so I'll leave those for another time, but the resistance to instruction among most pool players is the one I find most mind boggling of all.

In nearly every game or sport that I can think of it is not even questioned whether or not you need good quality instruction if you truly want to improve other than pool. Even auto racing has driving schools, and if racers don't go to a driving school they almost certainly had a veteran mentor showing them the ropes. Every good golfer has received a lesson or lessons at some point. You can't get to and stay at a high level without them. Why the resistance in pool? I think part of it is because of it's niche standing there just aren't a lot of good instructors around so it isn't part of the culture. But if you truly want to improve and not just say you want to seeking one out, or at the very lease finding high quality training materials, is the only way to go.

If you think you can just play or just hit balls with only an autodidact approach you'll probably just stay at the same level for as long as you play the game. Some people are cool with that. I don't mind. Just don't talk about how you seriously want to improve and then complain when people tell you what steps to take.

 

[krupa]

There are a few things I find absolutely baffling about the pool culture. Most of them don't relate to the subject of this thread so I'll leave those for another time, but the resistance to instruction among most pool players is the one I find most mind boggling of all.

In nearly every game or sport that I can think of it is not even questioned whether or not you need good quality instruction if you truly want to improve other than pool. Even auto racing has driving schools, and if racers don't go to a driving school they almost certainly had a veteran mentor showing them the ropes. Every good golfer has received a lesson or lessons at some point. You can't get to and stay at a high level without them. Why the resistance in pool? I think part of it is because of it's niche standing there just aren't a lot of good instructors around so it isn't part of the culture. But if you truly want to improve and not just say you want to seeking one out, or at the very lease finding high quality training materials, is the only way to go.

If you think you can just play or just hit balls with only an autodidact approach you'll probably just stay at the same level for as long as you play the game. Some people are cool with that. I don't mind. Just don't talk about how you seriously want to improve and then complain when people tell you what steps to take.

Three little letters: e g o

 

[FranCrimi]

I am so damn tired of reading posts telling people to go take lessons. I think everyone already knows that if you want to pay for lessons it will be worth your money but that's not the point of this forum, so stop with the comments about getting lessons. If someone asks an honest questions about their game and how to improve you should only respond with good advice, not recommending lessons for the 1,000,000th time...

You know what I hate more than that? I hate it when people are too quick to type whatever whiny problem they have with their game on any given day. Before message forums, players actually had to take it to the table and put in some constructive time on their game. If they did that now, you wouldn't see half the questions posted here.

Now, it's all about immediate gratification. Gimmee gimmee gimmee. Practice not necessary.

Oh, sure... they all say that they practice. Half the people here don't know what real practice time is.

You should try teaching players who expect immediate results. It's a lot of fun.