Titleist

[cfrandy]

is it not possible that someone made fakes? just askin

Possible yes, likely no! Spain and Davis could, but they came long after this cue was made! The Titlist (beginning with the 26 1/2) construction was quite unique and inspired many cuebuilder after it's introduction! However, it did not gain it's popularity until Hoppe's name appeared on the cue. The Greenleaf cue must have been made just after the 26 1/2 and 1945. It may have been a prototype that was discarded before Brunswick began releasing the Titlist! We will probably never find out...but it would be a heck of a story!

 

[Mr. Bond]

Possible yes, likely no! Spain and Davis could, but they came long after this cue was made! The Titlist (beginning with the 26 1/2) construction was quite unique and inspired many cuebuilder after it's introduction! However, it did not gain it's popularity until Hoppe's name appeared on the cue. The Greenleaf cue must have been made just after the 26 1/2 and 1945. It may have been a prototype that was discarded before Brunswick began releasing the Titlist! We will probably never find out...but it would be a heck of a story!

so you're saying that the Greenleaf version pre-dates the Hoppe version.....thats wild...

but....but...but...prototype?
i think that if they were prototypes, you wouldnt find but 1 or 2 of them, if any at all. so perhaps they were a 'limited edition'.... or perhaps they were promotional gifts/prizes for leagues and tourneys etc, this is something that brunswick was known to do.

 

[manwon]

Possible yes, likely no! Spain and Davis could, but they came long after this cue was made! The Titlist (beginning with the 26 1/2) construction was quite unique and inspired many cuebuilder after it's introduction! However, it did not gain it's popularity until Hoppe's name appeared on the cue. The Greenleaf cue must have been made just after the 26 1/2 and 1945. It may have been a prototype that was discarded before Brunswick began releasing the Titlist! We will probably never find out...but it would be a heck of a story!

That is not possible based upon the construction, the joint, and other materials used in this cues design.

I will say it again the cue was made in the late 50's or early 60's its design fits into no other time frame.

 

[Run the Century]

On behalf of Cajun fats:

cfrandy,you weren't far from the truth about the titlists being in an old Schmelke Warehouse. Not any more.



In 1993, Myself and Hal Hawkins of Eau Claire,Wisconsin paid a visit to Schmelke Cue Mfg.Co. in their new Rice Lake facility. Jim Schmelke had in fact,from the old facility,a case(60 each) full length oversized Titlists Blanks made by his Father Duard Schmelke back around 1960. These cues were covered and banded in the original thick cardboard shipping crate. Jim subsequently showed Hal and I the original veneer vats(metal tubes, actually) that the colored veneers were made in. He stated it would be cost prohibitive to retool his operation for so few cues. Hal had been buying shaft dowels from Jim for a long time,and he felt comfortable offering the Titlists to Hal. I provided the financial means for Hal to acquire the Titlists. I had Jim unband the Titlists to see one. There are only 5 people to my knowledge that have received one of these precious blanks from Hal.



Paul Rubino of the Billiard Encyclopedia,Cuemaker's Russ Espiritu and Dennis Kepley,and my Friend AzB's Run the Century. Perhaps there is one other. These Blanks are as vibrant as when they were first made. They are a part of Billiard History as relayed to me through Jim and subsequently Duard in our phone conversation.



So,cfrandy;aka RoadRunner, you weren't far off in your quip about some being found in an old Schmelke Warehouse! Thank You for your indulgence.

Carl Semmes;aka cajunfats.

 

[Mr. Bond]

That is not possible based upon the construction, the joint, and other materials used in this cues design.

I will say it again the cue was made in the late 50's or early 60's its design fits into no other time frame.

if what you are saying is true, then the obvious question becomes 'why'.
why do you suppose brunswick would make a Greenleaf cue during that time frame, when they just went to blows with him?

i can see brunswick wanting to make a Greenleaf cue around 1930 when he was the top ranked pocket player, but obviously not in 1950....

maybe it was a tribute cue when Greenleaf died....?

-------

Fritz Hampel (and one of the Jost brothers to a lesser degree) was a well known non-Brunswick related cue maker in Chicago for over thirty years. (1890-20s) I'm trying to prove his casual relationship with Rambow

 

[TATE]

I just wrote A.E. Schmidt to see if they recall anything about the Greenleaf cue and to see if Brunswick ever made cues for them. They said no, they made their own cues (AESCO brand) and didn't know anything about the Greenleaf cues. (I know for sure they used parts from other cue manufacturers, however).

None of the old timers I know recalls these Greenleaf cues - that in itself is a very odd situation.

Also - just closely examining the Greenleaf joint - Craig, what do you think the joint screw looks like - Brunswicks were not flattened like that.

 

[TATE]

If anybody has access to one of these Greenleaf cues, please let me know. I would like to have them look for a weight stamp.

 

[manwon]

cfrandy,you weren't far from the truth about the titlists being in an old Schmelke Warehouse. Not any more.



In 1993, Myself and Hal Hawkins of Eau Claire,Wisconsin paid a visit to Schmelke Cue Mfg.Co. in their new Rice Lake facility. Jim Schmelke had in fact,from the old facility,a case(60 each) full length oversized Titlists Blanks made by his Father Duard Schmelke back around 1960. These cues were covered and banded in the original thick cardboard shipping crate. Jim subsequently showed Hal and I the original veneer vats(metal tubes, actually) that the colored veneers were made in. He stated it would be cost prohibitive to retool his operation for so few cues. Hal had been buying shaft dowels from Jim for a long time,and he felt comfortable offering the Titlists to Hal. I provided the financial means for Hal to acquire the Titlists. I had Jim unband the Titlists to see one. There are only 5 people to my knowledge that have received one of these precious blanks from Hal.



Paul Rubino of the Billiard Encyclopedia,Cuemaker's Russ Espiritu and Dennis Kepley,and my Friend AzB's Run the Century. Perhaps there is one other. These Blanks are as vibrant as when they were first made. They are a part of Billiard History as relayed to me through Jim and subsequently Duard in our phone conversation.



So,cfrandy;aka RoadRunner, you weren't far off in your quip about some being found in an old Schmelke Warehouse! Thank You for your indulgence.

Carl Semmes;aka cajunfats.

You are correct Schmelke did make their own version of the Titlist Blanks, however, the date was 1968 to early 1969. When Brunswick stopped production of cues themselves Schemlke was chosen to make cues for them and they were made during the dates listed above. These cues were both one peice and two cues using the Schelke Titlist blank that was produced for Brunswick, thes were called the . The two peice cues used Schemlkes big metal joint that they are know for these cues were know as the Brunswick Personal Cue and they had a small metal name plate on the cues butt that said this.

After 1969 production of Brunswicks cues was moved to Japan, however, for a couple of years they still used the Schmelke joint. Many of these cues that were made there have a serial number at the joint on both the butt and shaft. This serial number was placed there so that if the shaft and butt were separated during shipping they could be matched up again. Cues made during that time frame had shafts that would only fit the butt they were made for.


Here are some photo's of the Schemlke Titlists cues that I spoke of above.

 

[manwon]

I just wrote A.E. Schmidt to see if they recall anything about the Greenleaf cue and to see if Brunswick ever made cues for them. They said no, they made their own cues (AESCO brand) and didn't know anything about the Greenleaf cues. (I know for sure they used parts from other cue manufacturers, however).

None of the old timers I know recalls these Greenleaf cues - that in itself is a very odd situation.

Also - just closely examining the Greenleaf joint - Craig, what do you think the joint screw looks like - Brunswicks were not flattened like that.

The ones I have seen had the same joint as the other two piece Brunswick's. In my opinion the cues were most likely made at about the time the Harold Worst cues were made the Logo stamp is also similar.

But, until we can find a catalog or other documentation this will just be another one of those mystery's.

 

[Cuebuddy]

When I first found the web I was crazy about E-bay, back then there were killer deals to be had. I would print out auction pictures and info when I found it interesting and I kept some of it in an aluminum folder. I found four old pics of Ralph Greenleaf cues and can see no labels on the cues.

I can remember maybe six to eight of these cues that showed up for sale but I have not looked for them in the last three or four years. I could of had several for under a century note but passed.

Something tells me someone on AZ has one or knows something more about these old cues.

 

[Cuebuddy]

Check this out. Do you guys think this was a factory conversion?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-WIL...981?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53ebc2588d

 

[manwon]

Check this out. Do you guys think this was a factory conversion?



That cue was not a factory conversion, the pin is not like anything I have ever seen Brunswick use.

 

[Cuebuddy]

Check this out. Do you guys think this was a factory conversion?



That cue was not a factory conversion, the pin is not like anything I have ever seen Brunswick use.

View attachment 216329

View attachment 216330

manwon I can post pics later on of a old Brunswick Ku King snooker cue with this same pin and joint.

 

[Cuebuddy]

manwon I can post pics later on of a old Brunswick Ku King snooker cue with this same pin and joint.

Ok its later

First of all I hate this joint and I must not been the only one because I have only seen a few. There is no metal female thread, it just threads into the wood.

 

[manwon]

Ok its later

First of all I hate this joint and I must not been the only one because I have only seen a few. There is no metal female thread, it just threads into the wood.

That is not a standard brunswick joint screw, even the Titlist two peice cues that were made in 40's did not use it they all used a Brass Joint 5/16 - 14 pin. How old do you think your cue is? It must have been something they tried at some point in the late 50's / early 60's when you cue was made.

Now back to the conversion about the cue on eBay. That cue based upon the sticker and the bumper was made during the 40's or early 50's and so if they did use that pin some one converted it much later or about the time frame your cue was made.

 

[Cuebuddy]

That is not a standard brunswick joint screw, even the Titlist two piece cues that were made in 40's did not use it they all used a Brass Joint 5/16 - 14 pin. How old do you think your cue is? It must have been something they tried at some point in the late 50's / early 60's when you cue was made.

Now back to the conversion about the cue on eBay. That cue based upon the sticker and the bumper was made during the 40's or early 50's and so if they did use that pin some one converted it much later or about the time frame your cue was made.

Yes, none of my other vintage Brunswick's have this joint and I had no idea this one was different when I bid on it. I have always assumed that it was a late 50's cue, and like I said I have seen this type of joint screw before but the shaft threads fall apart if you continue to screw it together and take it apart. I stabilized mine with a very viscus CA glue and that worked well. You can even see wood dust on those pipe threads on the auction picture you posted.

As far as the conversion of the old Titlist on Ebay> I don't know:embarrassed2: when I saw that joint pin it made wonder if it could of been a factory conversion during that time frame. For what ever it's worth I have seen many Ku Kings with the normal 5/16 x 14 pin.

 

[Mr. Bond]

seems like a serious handwriting analysis would determine if greenleafs name was written by kimmel or not

 

[manwon]

Yes, none of my other vintage Brunswick's have this joint and I had no idea this one was different when I bid on it. I have always assumed that it was a late 50's cue, and like I said I have seen this type of joint screw before but the shaft threads fall apart if you continue to screw it together and take it apart. I stabilized mine with a very viscus CA glue and that worked well. You can even see wood dust on those pipe threads on the auction picture you posted.

As far as the conversion of the old Titlist on Ebay> I don't know:embarrassed2: when I saw that joint pin it made wonder if it could of been a factory conversion during that time frame. For what ever it's worth I have seen many Ku Kings with the normal 5/16 x 14 pin.

The major difference between your cue and the cue on eBay is the bumper which dates earlier.

Take care

 

[billy]

bought this as a Paradise. looks like a titlelist

anybody comment?

hope the pics come thru. not used to posting

 

[billy]

bought this as a Paradise. looks like a titlelist

anybody comment?

hope the pics come thru. not used to posting

they did come thru okay ...


not the original butt cap and the refinishing job has become a problem but just wanted an educated opinion of what this may be