To Thomas Wayne
- Thread starter TomHay
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I'll subscribe to this one. I look forward to the info.
Here is one piece he wrote...
Thomas Wayne wrote:
What is the minimum equipment required to make cues? In my experience: a pocket knife! Years ago I met a fellow in a small Alaskan bar/pool hall (3 Valley coin-ops) with a homemade one-piece cue. He was a "bush" gold miner, and had CARVED this cue from a small Alaskan Birch tree (presumably while sitting around a campfire singing traditional campfire songs :-]). The grip section had several dozen concave divots carved in for texture and he had flame hardened it full-length; it was burnt-black from butt to tip. He had polished it with boot oil, and it had pieces of boot leather attached at each end, one for a bumper and the other for a tip. He carried it around in a long denim tube (recycled Levi’s, no doubt), and he played a fairly mean game with it, I might add (in fact I DID add). When he discovered what I did for a living, he talked me into adding a moose antler ferrule and "real" tip. Though it was remarkably straight, hand fitting was still required. Out of this we became good friends, till he disappeared a few years ago.
My first cues were built using only a floor model drill press. As a child, my father taught me woodworking on a first-generation Shop-smith (his father bought it when they first came out; my father -now in his mid 80's- still uses it). For those not familiar with the Shop-smith, it's a combination machine that can serve as a table saw, sander, lathe, drill press, and lots more. The [Shop-smith] lathe and drill press modes are very similar, so (years later and thousands of miles from home) when I needed a lathe -which I didn't have- I saw a simple way to modify the drill press that I DID have. I fitted a salvaged ball-bearing into the hole in the drill press table and used it for a "live" tail-stock. To the whole thing I added particle-board and drywall screw technology to create router guides and tool rests, etc. With this odd looking contraption I built a number of cues, and I'm proud to say that they were all stunning! (Ok, ok...they were less than mediocre). Having truly caught the bug, I decided to get a real lathe or two, and the rest -as they say- is hysterical (that is what they say, isn't it?).
A well-known Alaskan pool aficionado known by the nickname "Junkyard Jim" (he specialized in salvage work) decided, several years ago, that he wanted to build pool cues. He spent a lot of time hanging out at my shop, but his finances and general frugality prevented him from buying much in the way of "real" equipment. Typical of his necessary ingenuity, his sanding and wrapping lathe was built up from a used military 16mm film re-winder! He is no longer in cues -or Alaska, for that matter- and is hopefully on to bigger and better things.
The late Russ Waldo, of Seattle, first showed me how to build cues (before the drill press episodes). Russ used two Rockwell bench model wood lathes. He also had a tiny table-top metal lathe that he used to make joint pins and inserts, but all the cue work was done with just the two wood lathes. He had devised a number of router guides, tool rests and other gizmos and gadgets for getting the job done; this is where I learned to make similar improvisations. Russ is gone now, but his son may still be making cues. I haven't heard from him in quite a few years.
Until very recently there has never been any machinery or tooling dedicated specifically to the art of cuemaking. For that reason, all of the more "established" cuemakers (that I know) have experiences and stories similar to those given above. We all had to experiment, test and adapt to succeed (or fail) at our goals. The modern history of cuemaking is rich with examples of imagination and innovation. Following past greats (Martin, Balabushka, Szamboti, etc.), Richard Black, Bill Stroud, Ernie Gutierrez, Dan Janes, Bill Schick -and many others- are all living pioneers, responsible time and again for finding methods and techniques where none previously existed.
Today, there are any number of vendors who offer machines, tools, parts and instructions for repairing and/or building pool cues. Probably the best known (and most user friendly) is the machinery offered by Joe Porper of Creative Inventions in Canoga Park, California. Joe's machines, as well as the other brands, are meant to give the aspiring cuemaker a running start at a fairly difficult craft. But just having the "right" equipment is nowhere near all it takes to succeed as a cuemaker. The general perception is that if a guy just had a shop like -say- Mike Bender, or Jerry McWorter, he could punch out incredible cues, almost in his sleep. The reality, however, is very different. I have helped several people set up cuemaking shops with all the best equipment they could afford, only to have them be disappointed when they couldn't just shove lumber into one end and have finished cues fly out the other. I have (in my shop) some of the most sophisticated cuemaking equipment in existence. All of which I designed and built myself. NONE of it is "store bought", because you can't buy this kind of stuff anywhere. And you will find this to be true of virtually all the top cuemakers. But having this equipment alone would never be enough to succeed at cuemaking. Along with the correct tools, the other necessary ingredients for successful cuemaking are desire (most important), ingenuity and imagination. All the top cuemakers I know, to a man, have these qualities in abundance. And you can't buy that at the store either. As the old gospel preacher said: "You gotta have a 'want to'!".
As I've stated in other postings, Joe Porper is a close friend of mine. So naturally, I'm a little biased. That not withstanding, I know ANY product Joe puts on the market will be of the highest quality possible -he wouldn't settle for less. I have personally bought two of Joe's lathes (for other businesses), and always recommend them when people ask me about cue lathes. By the time Joe first brought his lathe to market, I had already fully equipped my shop (you can accumulate a lot stuff in almost 30 years of being a "tool junkie"). If I was just starting out today, however, I'd be thrilled with one of his fully equipped lathes ("model B"). What a head start that would be. If you're a creative, artistic, or craft-oriented type, cuemaking might be just your thing. And maybe I'll see you at an ACA meeting someday. If, however, you're a pool junkie (no shame in that; I am, too) and you figure cuemaking might be a great way to make loads of money without having to get a "real" job, I think you're going to be mighty disappointed. Cuemaking -especially in the beginning- can be hard and unprofitable work. Over the years I have watched a number of 'pool-junkie-turned-cuemaker' types who became disenchanted with the rigors of the craft and eventually went back to being just pool junkies. I encourage these guys, because they're always a great source of used equipment, after the "honeymoon" is over.
If you have the dedication, patience and perseverance necessary to succeed at cuemaking, you could do a LOT worse than a Porper lathe. If you DON'T have these attributes, maybe you should save your money..
Thomas Wayne wrote:
What is the minimum equipment required to make cues? In my experience: a pocket knife! Years ago I met a fellow in a small Alaskan bar/pool hall (3 Valley coin-ops) with a homemade one-piece cue. He was a "bush" gold miner, and had CARVED this cue from a small Alaskan Birch tree (presumably while sitting around a campfire singing traditional campfire songs :-]). The grip section had several dozen concave divots carved in for texture and he had flame hardened it full-length; it was burnt-black from butt to tip. He had polished it with boot oil, and it had pieces of boot leather attached at each end, one for a bumper and the other for a tip. He carried it around in a long denim tube (recycled Levi’s, no doubt), and he played a fairly mean game with it, I might add (in fact I DID add). When he discovered what I did for a living, he talked me into adding a moose antler ferrule and "real" tip. Though it was remarkably straight, hand fitting was still required. Out of this we became good friends, till he disappeared a few years ago.
My first cues were built using only a floor model drill press. As a child, my father taught me woodworking on a first-generation Shop-smith (his father bought it when they first came out; my father -now in his mid 80's- still uses it). For those not familiar with the Shop-smith, it's a combination machine that can serve as a table saw, sander, lathe, drill press, and lots more. The [Shop-smith] lathe and drill press modes are very similar, so (years later and thousands of miles from home) when I needed a lathe -which I didn't have- I saw a simple way to modify the drill press that I DID have. I fitted a salvaged ball-bearing into the hole in the drill press table and used it for a "live" tail-stock. To the whole thing I added particle-board and drywall screw technology to create router guides and tool rests, etc. With this odd looking contraption I built a number of cues, and I'm proud to say that they were all stunning! (Ok, ok...they were less than mediocre). Having truly caught the bug, I decided to get a real lathe or two, and the rest -as they say- is hysterical (that is what they say, isn't it?).
A well-known Alaskan pool aficionado known by the nickname "Junkyard Jim" (he specialized in salvage work) decided, several years ago, that he wanted to build pool cues. He spent a lot of time hanging out at my shop, but his finances and general frugality prevented him from buying much in the way of "real" equipment. Typical of his necessary ingenuity, his sanding and wrapping lathe was built up from a used military 16mm film re-winder! He is no longer in cues -or Alaska, for that matter- and is hopefully on to bigger and better things.
The late Russ Waldo, of Seattle, first showed me how to build cues (before the drill press episodes). Russ used two Rockwell bench model wood lathes. He also had a tiny table-top metal lathe that he used to make joint pins and inserts, but all the cue work was done with just the two wood lathes. He had devised a number of router guides, tool rests and other gizmos and gadgets for getting the job done; this is where I learned to make similar improvisations. Russ is gone now, but his son may still be making cues. I haven't heard from him in quite a few years.
Until very recently there has never been any machinery or tooling dedicated specifically to the art of cuemaking. For that reason, all of the more "established" cuemakers (that I know) have experiences and stories similar to those given above. We all had to experiment, test and adapt to succeed (or fail) at our goals. The modern history of cuemaking is rich with examples of imagination and innovation. Following past greats (Martin, Balabushka, Szamboti, etc.), Richard Black, Bill Stroud, Ernie Gutierrez, Dan Janes, Bill Schick -and many others- are all living pioneers, responsible time and again for finding methods and techniques where none previously existed.
Today, there are any number of vendors who offer machines, tools, parts and instructions for repairing and/or building pool cues. Probably the best known (and most user friendly) is the machinery offered by Joe Porper of Creative Inventions in Canoga Park, California. Joe's machines, as well as the other brands, are meant to give the aspiring cuemaker a running start at a fairly difficult craft. But just having the "right" equipment is nowhere near all it takes to succeed as a cuemaker. The general perception is that if a guy just had a shop like -say- Mike Bender, or Jerry McWorter, he could punch out incredible cues, almost in his sleep. The reality, however, is very different. I have helped several people set up cuemaking shops with all the best equipment they could afford, only to have them be disappointed when they couldn't just shove lumber into one end and have finished cues fly out the other. I have (in my shop) some of the most sophisticated cuemaking equipment in existence. All of which I designed and built myself. NONE of it is "store bought", because you can't buy this kind of stuff anywhere. And you will find this to be true of virtually all the top cuemakers. But having this equipment alone would never be enough to succeed at cuemaking. Along with the correct tools, the other necessary ingredients for successful cuemaking are desire (most important), ingenuity and imagination. All the top cuemakers I know, to a man, have these qualities in abundance. And you can't buy that at the store either. As the old gospel preacher said: "You gotta have a 'want to'!".
As I've stated in other postings, Joe Porper is a close friend of mine. So naturally, I'm a little biased. That not withstanding, I know ANY product Joe puts on the market will be of the highest quality possible -he wouldn't settle for less. I have personally bought two of Joe's lathes (for other businesses), and always recommend them when people ask me about cue lathes. By the time Joe first brought his lathe to market, I had already fully equipped my shop (you can accumulate a lot stuff in almost 30 years of being a "tool junkie"). If I was just starting out today, however, I'd be thrilled with one of his fully equipped lathes ("model B"). What a head start that would be. If you're a creative, artistic, or craft-oriented type, cuemaking might be just your thing. And maybe I'll see you at an ACA meeting someday. If, however, you're a pool junkie (no shame in that; I am, too) and you figure cuemaking might be a great way to make loads of money without having to get a "real" job, I think you're going to be mighty disappointed. Cuemaking -especially in the beginning- can be hard and unprofitable work. Over the years I have watched a number of 'pool-junkie-turned-cuemaker' types who became disenchanted with the rigors of the craft and eventually went back to being just pool junkies. I encourage these guys, because they're always a great source of used equipment, after the "honeymoon" is over.
If you have the dedication, patience and perseverance necessary to succeed at cuemaking, you could do a LOT worse than a Porper lathe. If you DON'T have these attributes, maybe you should save your money..
Wow. ain't that the truth...
I started my foray into cue making about 12 years ago. I started with a wood lathe, a band saw and a router table. It is slow going and difficult to do right, but can be done with patience and perseverance.
When I started my foray into commercial custom cue making about a year ago, I started using a porper model B. It does make things a lot easier. About six months ago I lost full time access to the porper and have had to hold off on going full time public at cue making (long story, don't start with a partner if you can avoid it) but am just finishing up with a CNC cue making lathe that I designed and built myself.
I will soon be building a CNC router in increase my ability to artistically design cues and I have several ideas on designs that I have been working on over the years that are innovative while still maintaining the classic styling that most cue enthusiasts have grown to love. I look forward to debuting some of these designs here on AZB in the near future.
So now, my shop consists of a CNC cue making lathe, a wood lathe, a 10" band saw, a router and table, a cue finishing lathe that I built myself with enclosure and a lot of desire and sweat.
Jaden
I started my foray into cue making about 12 years ago. I started with a wood lathe, a band saw and a router table. It is slow going and difficult to do right, but can be done with patience and perseverance.
When I started my foray into commercial custom cue making about a year ago, I started using a porper model B. It does make things a lot easier. About six months ago I lost full time access to the porper and have had to hold off on going full time public at cue making (long story, don't start with a partner if you can avoid it) but am just finishing up with a CNC cue making lathe that I designed and built myself.
I will soon be building a CNC router in increase my ability to artistically design cues and I have several ideas on designs that I have been working on over the years that are innovative while still maintaining the classic styling that most cue enthusiasts have grown to love. I look forward to debuting some of these designs here on AZB in the near future.
So now, my shop consists of a CNC cue making lathe, a wood lathe, a 10" band saw, a router and table, a cue finishing lathe that I built myself with enclosure and a lot of desire and sweat.
Jaden
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I was hoping that Thomas Wayne would have been the poster but very happy to see it up.
It is this type of writing and inspirational info that makes Thomas Wayne a Hall Of Famer.
We all have stories if we got past the first day. I would love to read more like that one from Thomas Wayne, or anyone.
Thanks
It is this type of writing and inspirational info that makes Thomas Wayne a Hall Of Famer.
We all have stories if we got past the first day. I would love to read more like that one from Thomas Wayne, or anyone.
Thanks
You must have posted yours while I was writing mine, thank you for shaing your story :yeah:
In my shop here in Michigan, I have 2 Porper model B's, a Hightower inlay machine, my own forearm making machine I created, a bandsaw, router tables, tablesaw, drill press as well as a few little machines that make building a little easier. NO CNC NOW OR EVER! Hope this helps, good luck to you.
"NO CNC NOW OR EVER!"
Very astute. You are happy making inlays with a small, lightweight pantomill but you can't bend your morals enough to allow you to use a CNC which not only will use the same cutters as a hand operated pantomill but has the ability to use much, much smaller ones also, can be more accurate and usually is and in the long run. if many templates are desired the CNC will be a much cheaper piece of equipment.
This is just my opinion but it upsets me when someone draws a line in the sand that they won't cross but have absolutely no legitimate reason for such stand other than advertising to other unknowledgeable consumers.
In the late 60's and early 70's, the exact same same arguments were used by the older cue builders who used knives, chisels and black glue for inlays against the newer cue makers who were cheating and building inferior cues because they were using pantomills, which by the way, if they have good templates and styluses, made the inlays much more precise, better looking and of coarse much more intricate.
The CNC is just the next step in the evolution of the craft. It can give you access to literally millions of inlays at no cost. It is much more precise, much quicker as it cuts at the optimum speed for the cutter being used and while it is doing it's thing the operator can be doing something else and it's much more affordable as you don't need to be buying hundreds of templates to keep your inlays unique and up to date. Try using .005 end mills at 25-30.00 a pop in your pantomill and see how you like it after breaking 20 or so before cutting an inch.
Sorry for going so far off subject but that statement is probably my greatest pet-peeve, among many.
Dick
You forgot to mention the hours of bending over(back and neck issues) that CNC saves. Whether or not you approve of it, you CAN'T DISPROVE the wear and tear on your body.
Cnc and metal lathes are evil.
The reason why I put that was not a slam against anyone who uses CNC at all. I personally wont for the reason that I am not familiar with the programs, setup, or repair of the machine or any of its computer parts. I'm not saying that i'm computer illiterate, just when it comes to programs. It had nothing to do with the advancement of technology nor was it a slam towards anyone who uses them. The people who do use them or have been using them im sure builds a much better looking cue than I can doing it manually. Not to mention what everyone said about being hard on your body bending over all the time cause your right, it hurts and sucks sometimes when your there for hours. As far as breaking bits, not a problem here. I know to take it slow and not too deep as I would rather take a longer time to do it but I do it right the first time!
TAKE A BREATH MY FRIEND, NOBODY HATES YOU. You don't have to be a crab ass all the time. People are allowed to have different opinions than yours! Maybe you should have asked why I put that instead of automatically jumping to conclusions. This was strictly because of inexperience and thats all! Just a newbie cuemaker who I guess does things the old fashioned way. RELAX, breath and good luck to you!
TAKE A BREATH MY FRIEND, NOBODY HATES YOU. You don't have to be a crab ass all the time. People are allowed to have different opinions than yours! Maybe you should have asked why I put that instead of automatically jumping to conclusions. This was strictly because of inexperience and thats all! Just a newbie cuemaker who I guess does things the old fashioned way. RELAX, breath and good luck to you!
Hi,
CNC is just one more skill set that one needs to master if they intend to make any type of artistic statements with their cues. The panto is a machine that will quench some of that thirst but it pales when it is all said and done when compared to the CNC as a tool for expression.
Let's face it, Mr. Wayne did not get into the hall of fame because he knew how to build a Plain Jane, Titleist Conversion or Balabuska Clone ect. And that's not knocking any of the above or anyone who gets satisfaction from building them because there is a market and a niche for those works.
Building any cues and making your bones must be done before you can focus on higher levels of awareness to your end product. That is a natural progression. Let's face it, Leonardo did not start out painting the Mona Lisa.
People who implore art images and designs on cues are more what is called "Visionaries" so to speak and get there satisfaction from the challenge of the artist expression and the execution of same to what ever level they can achieve. When TW makes statements on this form it is always from a prospective of a Visionary who has made his bones and made the natural progression. Why some people react to his offerings the way they so often do is not surprising to me.
So there it is, the path to the Hall of Fame. At least the way TW did it. Now along will come another visionary that will do it by following a totally different path. Life, art and cue making are all seamless with a million permutations to choose from and there are no rules or guidelines. How cool is that!
To knock CNC as a cue maker's tool is no different than taking the chisel out of the sculptors hand. It does not make sense in the world that I live in and perceive.
JMHO,
Rick G
CNC is just one more skill set that one needs to master if they intend to make any type of artistic statements with their cues. The panto is a machine that will quench some of that thirst but it pales when it is all said and done when compared to the CNC as a tool for expression.
Let's face it, Mr. Wayne did not get into the hall of fame because he knew how to build a Plain Jane, Titleist Conversion or Balabuska Clone ect. And that's not knocking any of the above or anyone who gets satisfaction from building them because there is a market and a niche for those works.
Building any cues and making your bones must be done before you can focus on higher levels of awareness to your end product. That is a natural progression. Let's face it, Leonardo did not start out painting the Mona Lisa.
People who implore art images and designs on cues are more what is called "Visionaries" so to speak and get there satisfaction from the challenge of the artist expression and the execution of same to what ever level they can achieve. When TW makes statements on this form it is always from a prospective of a Visionary who has made his bones and made the natural progression. Why some people react to his offerings the way they so often do is not surprising to me.
So there it is, the path to the Hall of Fame. At least the way TW did it. Now along will come another visionary that will do it by following a totally different path. Life, art and cue making are all seamless with a million permutations to choose from and there are no rules or guidelines. How cool is that!
To knock CNC as a cue maker's tool is no different than taking the chisel out of the sculptors hand. It does not make sense in the world that I live in and perceive.
JMHO,
Rick G
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Thanks Randy, for posting TW's commemts on cue making.
He nailed it as well as he made cues.
Beyond the lathes, saws, cncs and such, it takes a special and unusual talent to get beyond a "nice" cue to a great one and most of us who delve into cue making don't have that special talent.
I, for one, will never reach the level of TW, yet I am content making (somewhat) nice cues. I won't ever shoot stick like Mosconi either but still love and enjoy the game. Same for cue making.
Thanks again for the post.
Weegee
He nailed it as well as he made cues.
Beyond the lathes, saws, cncs and such, it takes a special and unusual talent to get beyond a "nice" cue to a great one and most of us who delve into cue making don't have that special talent.
I, for one, will never reach the level of TW, yet I am content making (somewhat) nice cues. I won't ever shoot stick like Mosconi either but still love and enjoy the game. Same for cue making.
Thanks again for the post.
Weegee
I know a statement when I see one. If you weren't trying to make a statement then why did you put that "STATEMENT" in bold, capital letters my friend? Also, I couldn't give a care in this world if someone hates me or not. I just post my thoughts as I see them. I no longer have to prove or disprove anything in this world and your correct that I am a crab ass when I see people making not smart statements. I started to put in my statement when I was forming it that most often when people say that they won't use CNC is because they don't have the initial outlay or because they are computer illiterate but I felt there was no reason to make that accusation without personally knowing your situation. With today's cad/cam software very little computer savvy is needed for the inlays that 99% of cue builders are interested in anyway.
As I had said earlier there is no reason not to use a pantomill for inlays as they will do a pretty good job on simpler inlays but they're just not up to snuff as far as expense and quality in the long run as prices have come down so drastically. Trying to demean improved technology however is unconscionable. Have a wonderful afternoon.
Dick
I don't see myself using CNC anytime soon, but I'd sure LIKE to start tomorrow.
I, for one, refuse to use a power drill, NOW OR EVER! I like the old fashioned way, and nobody can tell me any different.
Just kidding. Let's all take a breath here...
Has anyone besides me used a bit and brace???
I am betting most don't even know what that is....lol..
I thought that is what Is pictured here? I have used them before back in the old days when I would use My dad and grandfathers tools, because no one had to worry about me being too young for power tools or unsupervised when using them. Good old manual labor
Fun to use with a dull auger bit that has seen It's better days..
