Top five 9Ball Players of all time?
- Thread starter Big Money Mike
- Start date
I guess I don't get it but I don't see how people vote for Parica with his girly man break.....I don't care how good of a player he was. Same for Efren.
Big Money Mike
Registered
Thanks gpeezy, I sure wished I could have seen Lassiter and Worst play. It would have been great to watch from what I've heard. The players that seem to make everyones list is Earl (extreamly high gear) and Buddy (perfect position play). Earl has a chance (small of course) to win the US Open this year and if completed he will have won it twice in each of the last three decades. What an accomplishment that would be. GO GETIM EARL!!!!!!!!!!!
gpeezy
for sale!
Lots of people look at Earl like he's washed up. I don't think, but know he can do it if he keeps from goin too far tilt.
Funny, you say your list begins with Lassiter, yet I can't seem to find him anywhere on your list!
Also, Dennis Rodman at number 8 is quite a stretch.
Jay,
Very god point in your openeing paragraph re: criteria. For an "all time best" list, longevity has to be a main consideration. Louie Roberts, for example, had a two year stretch or so where he was in some kind of a coma...he just didn't miss. Billy was all but unbeatable 1970-1973.
Buddy was in some kind of a zone for a couple years. Much has been said & written about all these great champions.
Besides longevity, major championships won as well as how they fared in money games should have lots of bearing on narrowing a list of approx 15 very qualified players ever into an "all time" top 5.
Here's my picks....
1. Luther Lassiter
2. Earl Strickland
3. Mike Sigel
4. Nick Varner
5. Buddy Hall
Ralf Souquet, Allen Hopkins, Johnny Archer, Harold Worst, Ed Kelly, Steve Mizerak, Jim Rempe & Efren Reyes in no particular order here, all could be included in the second tier (6-10).
Twenty years ago, little Jose had a pretty solid break. I guess he played okay too. He only beat all comers in 9-Ball for the next fifteen years. NO ONE was barred either! I did say NO ONE!
Thanks, correction made! I'm such a dork. In truth, I would probably rank Lassiter fifth all time and move Johnny and Miz back to a tie for sixth.
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Jay,
I saw that but out of the enormous respect I have for you both as a pool historian and friend, I didn't want to point that out.
But I would like to point out that the last post you just made was number 13013!
Yikes! Leaving Wimpy out of the top 5 (he really is numero uno buddy!) is one thing, but to post double 13's....I'm NOT supersticious (spelling?) but if I was you, I would just stay home tonight and watch some Accu-Stats. Or, The Ultimate Fighter-Heavyweights is on Spike later on. I definitely would NOT, repeat NOT, try to play any pool for any $ tonight! :smile:
Thank GOD I didn't make the list. That would knock the hell out of my action!:grin:
Ooops! My bad!
Whoooaaa! Hold the horses! I just re-read your post number and the ommission of Wimpy's admissioan was #13014, NOT 13013! One of us is losing his mind, and I don't think it's you Jay!
Now I'm even responding to my own posts like Artie does....
I'm logging off and putting some Accu-Stats in the ol' dvd. I feel like some Shannon Daulton this evening. And at 10:00 EST, I'll be tuned in to Spike TV.
Jay,
I saw that but out of the enormous respect I have for you both as a pool historian and friend, I didn't want to point that out.
But I would like to point out that the last post you just made was number 13013!
I'm NOT supersticious (spelling?) but if I was you, I would just stay home tonight and watch some Accu-Stats. Or, The Ultimate Fighter-Heavyweights is on Spike later on. I definitely would NOT, repeat NOT, try to play any pool for any $ tonight! :smile:
Whoooaaa! Hold the horses! I just re-read your post number and the ommission of Wimpy's admissioan was #13014, NOT 13013! One of us is losing his mind, and I don't think it's you Jay!
Now I'm even responding to my own posts like Artie does....
I'm logging off and putting some Accu-Stats in the ol' dvd. I feel like some Shannon Daulton this evening. And at 10:00 EST, I'll be tuned in to Spike TV.
Jay,
I saw that but out of the enormous respect I have for you both as a pool historian and friend, I didn't want to point that out.
But I would like to point out that the last post you just made was number 13013!
I'm NOT supersticious (spelling?) but if I was you, I would just stay home tonight and watch some Accu-Stats. Or, The Ultimate Fighter-Heavyweights is on Spike later on. I definitely would NOT, repeat NOT, try to play any pool for any $ tonight! :smile:
Terry, didn't anyone ever tell you that it was unlucky to be superstitious? :wink:
Lassiter's name always come up whenever the greatest are mentioned. Does anyone know where to obtain video of him playing during his prime?
He was at his peak 20 years before he won his 6 World 9 Ball Championships
Majic,
Besides his 14.1 match with Cicero Murphy in the finals of the 1966 World 14.1 Championships, I am not aware of any other video of him until the "Legendary Stars of Pocket Billiards", which was filmed in 1982 & 1983.
Here's a link....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxobcdPCYwE
Video of Lassiter in his peak would be a treasure find! Here's why....
Luther Lassiter was born on Nov 5, 1918 and died at age 69 on Oct 25, 1988. He was already a great player by the time he was in his 20s, but, in the 1940's and 1950's, there were hardly any major 9 ball tournaments being held. 14.1 was still the main game. During this time, he was a road player and he traveled for years with another bonafide great player named Don Willis.
By the time the Johnson City tournaments came into being starting in 1961, Lassiter was already a legendary road player. Starting in 1962 (the 1st Johnson City 9 ball tournament) Lassiter dominated the field and won the first of his 6 World 9 ball championships. These Johnson City and Stardust tournaments were the defacto World Championships and they had fields that included Harold Worst, Ed Kelly, Irving Crane, Joe Balsis, Ronnie Allen, Danny Jones, Eddie Taylor, Larry Johnson, Jim Marino, Buddy Hall and many other great players. Lassiter won titles in 1962, 1963, 1964, 1967, 1969 and 1971. Keep in mind that at this time, he was 44 in 1962 and 53 in 1971....
***His peak as a player was argueably past, yet he still beat very, very talented players.
Now, not only was he a great TOURNAMENT player, he was also one of the greatest MONEY players that ever lived. His favorite game was "money pool", any game he could bet on. Believe me when I tell you this, his game went UP several notches for the cash. Some players play better in tournaments than they do when they gamble, and others, visa-versa. Lassiter was a better money player than a tournament player.
So, put those two facts together, add in his longevity at the top (30+ years) and I can make a very strong case for him. This of course does not take into consideration his 4 outright World 14.1 Championships, PLUS 5 14.1 Championships at Johnson City, 5 World All-Around Championships and 1 World 1 Pocket Championship and you have a very gifted player indeed.
Let's compare Luther to some other players. In the two major championships at 9 Ball, Efren has 1 World 9 Ball Championship in 1999 and 1 U.S. Open 9 Ball Championship in 1994. Sigel has 5 WC and 3 US Open's, Varner has 3 WC and back-to-back US Open titles. Archer, Hall, Souquet and Allen Hopkins all have more major 9 ball titles than Reyes' 2.
(Considering Reyes also has 6 World 8 Ball Championships, he is the greatest Rotation player ever, he is, in my opinion the greatest 1 pocket player ever and he is super at 14.1, I feel that Efren Reyes is the greatest all-around pool player ever. As an "all-around" player, Reyes is better than Lassiter and Strickland, but not at 9 ball.)
Consider this....Lassiter won 6 World 9 Ball Championships from the age of 44 till he was 53.
***How many more championships would he have won had there been 9 ball tournaments in the 2 previous decades?***
But there weren't any.
So, if he won 6 World Chamionships 20 years after his prime, what would he have been like from the 1940's to 1960's????
Compare that to Reyes, who has one (1) World 9 Ball Championship, in an era where for 10 plus years, there were 2 "World 9 Ball Championships" available every year! And Reyes has a total of 1. Besides Earl, I don't see any currently active player accumulating 6 World 9 ball Championships.
Lassiter, who didn't have tournaments to compete in until he was 44, still won 6 World 9 ball Championships.
(Earl is my choice for #2, with his 5 U.S. Open 9 ball Championships and his 6 World 9 ball Championships.) I feel Lassiter beats Earl in the "better money player" catagory as well as having a higher peak for a longer period.
Majic,
Besides his 14.1 match with Cicero Murphy in the finals of the 1966 World 14.1 Championships, I am not aware of any other video of him until the "Legendary Stars of Pocket Billiards", which was filmed in 1982 & 1983.
Here's a link....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxobcdPCYwE
Video of Lassiter in his peak would be a treasure find! Here's why....
Luther Lassiter was born on Nov 5, 1918 and died at age 69 on Oct 25, 1988. He was already a great player by the time he was in his 20s, but, in the 1940's and 1950's, there were hardly any major 9 ball tournaments being held. 14.1 was still the main game. During this time, he was a road player and he traveled for years with another bonafide great player named Don Willis.
By the time the Johnson City tournaments came into being starting in 1961, Lassiter was already a legendary road player. Starting in 1962 (the 1st Johnson City 9 ball tournament) Lassiter dominated the field and won the first of his 6 World 9 ball championships. These Johnson City and Stardust tournaments were the defacto World Championships and they had fields that included Harold Worst, Ed Kelly, Irving Crane, Joe Balsis, Ronnie Allen, Danny Jones, Eddie Taylor, Larry Johnson, Jim Marino, Buddy Hall and many other great players. Lassiter won titles in 1962, 1963, 1964, 1967, 1969 and 1971. Keep in mind that at this time, he was 44 in 1962 and 53 in 1971....
***His peak as a player was argueably past, yet he still beat very, very talented players.
Now, not only was he a great TOURNAMENT player, he was also one of the greatest MONEY players that ever lived. His favorite game was "money pool", any game he could bet on. Believe me when I tell you this, his game went UP several notches for the cash. Some players play better in tournaments than they do when they gamble, and others, visa-versa. Lassiter was a better money player than a tournament player.
So, put those two facts together, add in his longevity at the top (30+ years) and I can make a very strong case for him. This of course does not take into consideration his 4 outright World 14.1 Championships, PLUS 5 14.1 Championships at Johnson City, 5 World All-Around Championships and 1 World 1 Pocket Championship and you have a very gifted player indeed.
Let's compare Luther to some other players. In the two major championships at 9 Ball, Efren has 1 World 9 Ball Championship in 1999 and 1 U.S. Open 9 Ball Championship in 1994. Sigel has 5 WC and 3 US Open's, Varner has 3 WC and back-to-back US Open titles. Archer, Hall, Souquet and Allen Hopkins all have more major 9 ball titles than Reyes' 2.
(Considering Reyes also has 6 World 8 Ball Championships, he is the greatest Rotation player ever, he is, in my opinion the greatest 1 pocket player ever and he is super at 14.1, I feel that Efren Reyes is the greatest all-around pool player ever. As an "all-around" player, Reyes is better than Lassiter and Strickland, but not at 9 ball.)
Consider this....Lassiter won 6 World 9 Ball Championships from the age of 44 till he was 53.
***How many more championships would he have won had there been 9 ball tournaments in the 2 previous decades?***
But there weren't any.
So, if he won 6 World Chamionships 20 years after his prime, what would he have been like from the 1940's to 1960's????
Compare that to Reyes, who has one (1) World 9 Ball Championship, in an era where for 10 plus years, there were 2 "World 9 Ball Championships" available every year! And Reyes has a total of 1. Besides Earl, I don't see any currently active player accumulating 6 World 9 ball Championships.
Lassiter, who didn't have tournaments to compete in until he was 44, still won 6 World 9 ball Championships.
(Earl is my choice for #2, with his 5 U.S. Open 9 ball Championships and his 6 World 9 ball Championships.) I feel Lassiter beats Earl in the "better money player" catagory as well as having a higher peak for a longer period.
david holstead
Registered
That is the quintessential post on Lassiter, by Terry! Well composed and articulated! Very hard to argue with those facts and Terry's stated logic! FWIW, I concur.
1) Earl Strickland
2) Mike Sigel
3) Johnny Archer
4) Luther Lassiter
5) Efren Reyes
I don't think any of those players can realistically be kept "off" a list of the top 5 9-ballers in all honesty, I don't think anyone else in the world has more credentials then them. Efren would have done alot more in the game if he had a decent break.
2) Mike Sigel
3) Johnny Archer
4) Luther Lassiter
5) Efren Reyes
I don't think any of those players can realistically be kept "off" a list of the top 5 9-ballers in all honesty, I don't think anyone else in the world has more credentials then them. Efren would have done alot more in the game if he had a decent break.
Top Players
Not sure 5 is possible - there's many world class players.
If you were asking this question in the Philipine or Europe you would get very different responses so maybe you should ask top 5 by continent. Someone earlier said that older players may not compare to todays talent jumping and kicking alone would destroy the old crews, no mater how good they played, the game has evolved so much we're on the verge of having to make it Ten-Ball, i think itsays alot about today's break and todays top talent.
USA top 5
- Earl
- Johny
- Mike
- Buddy
- Nick
Europe
- Ralph
- Mika
- Niels
- Oliver
- THorsten
Philipines
- Ephren
- Fransisco
- Alex
- Denis
- Rony
Taiwan
- Yang
- Wu
- Ko
- Chen
- Yang
Top group that would win mosconi cup style competition
#1 Philipine
#2 tie between #2 Europe #2 Taiwan
#3 USA
Not sure 5 is possible - there's many world class players.
If you were asking this question in the Philipine or Europe you would get very different responses so maybe you should ask top 5 by continent. Someone earlier said that older players may not compare to todays talent jumping and kicking alone would destroy the old crews, no mater how good they played, the game has evolved so much we're on the verge of having to make it Ten-Ball, i think itsays alot about today's break and todays top talent.
USA top 5
- Earl
- Johny
- Mike
- Buddy
- Nick
Europe
- Ralph
- Mika
- Niels
- Oliver
- THorsten
Philipines
- Ephren
- Fransisco
- Alex
- Denis
- Rony
Taiwan
- Yang
- Wu
- Ko
- Chen
- Yang
Top group that would win mosconi cup style competition
#1 Philipine
#2 tie between #2 Europe #2 Taiwan
#3 USA
Horton,
One thing to keep in mind about the older generation of 9 ballers....IF they played today, THEY ALSO would be allowed the same rules as todays players. In other words, don't discount that the old timers like Lassiter, Ed Kelly, etc would not have also become proficient with the jump cues. And I have a strong feeling that had they been playing today, they would also have learned how to kick with great accuracy. Remember, when Mr Reyes and his cronies showed us that kicking was lacking here in the USA, the guys playing at that time soon learned to work on their kicking and saftey play or else!
Also, in your lists of top players ever by country, where is Fong Pang Chao on the Taiwan list? And you have Yang listed twice. One for sure is Ching Shun Yang. Who is the "other" Yang? Ricky Yang is from Indonesia if that's who you were thinking of.
Lastly, you mention a "Chen" Jennifer Chen? If we're to include women on our lists, Allison Fisher deserves to be mentioned based on her sterling credentials.
I'm not trying to pick your list apart, I'm just a little confused.
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