Top Pros...Going, Going, Maybe Gone

Johnnyt

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
What happened to the women players from the U.S.? We don't have one top world female player anymore. I don't even think we have one woman "A" player anymore.

As far as top world men we might have five. The problem is I don't see it getting any better any time soon as long as a pro has to come in the money from first to third to show any kind of a profit. If a U.S. pro goes to five majors in a year in the states and comes in 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 8th, and 10th he might come up even=a big lose for the year.

I think what Mark G. and Joe Tucker are trying to get started might be the answer to breed more top pros in time, but as far as I can see it does nothing to help the top pro players now.

Purses need to be higher and pay further down the chart. If that means $1000 entry fees that only about 16 players can afford...so be it. I also think that half the major U.S tournaments should just be for National players. Sixteen players to start and a few added each six months to a year from the Joe T & Mark G. farm team would be a good format. Johnnyt

PS:I know that only raising the entry fees is nowhere near the whole answer...but it's a start. More sponsorship and TV has to happen too.
 
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Question

Johnny,
Do you feel that it's right for certain women's players to get their share of the limelight when their games are so weak. Watching the livestream last night was painful. Wouldn't the time spent on them be better spent showing all the regional shortstops who play just a level or two below top gear? This is the group that doesn't get the exposure and this is the group that is the pool of future top level players.
 
It's all about coaching. The women players here in the U.S. don't have full-time coaches nor do they grind on their game as hard as the international players. I spent a good bit of time in China and let just say that MANY of the men here would get destroyed by many of their women -- women you've never, ever heard of before.

After seeing the "depth" of GREAT women players in China, it quickly helped me realize that American women are doomed at the top level. Drawing dead, basically.
 
We need a Jean Balukas-type player to step up into the limelight. Not sure there is any female today even in the running for this caliber of play.

Many WPBA players have full-time jobs today. It is not possible to earn a living playing pool professionally, as most of the readers on this forum are aware.

Without full-time dedication to the game, it would be difficult for anyone -- male or female -- to be at the top level of play.

I've said it often, and it's becoming ever-so clear today. The existing lot of American professional pool players is dwindling. The United States enjoys other sports more so than pool, unlike Philippines who places pool on high on their sports list.

A major happening in the pool world could put pool on the mainstream media map, much like Nancy Kerrigan and Tanya Harding. If it was captured on YouTube or video, it could go viral, which then would capture the the mainstream media. It possibly might generate new interest in pool.

Now, I'm not saying Alex Pagulayan has to put Earl Strickland in a choke-hold with his cuestick, but something just like this seems to attract curious onlookers. :o

One time at our neighborhood tavern, Hank Dietle's, we slipped in a trick 8-ball in the bar box. Two of our regulars were playing $5 a game, which for us was big money in the bar. We usually only shot for a buck or a beer. When Greg the Banker went to shoot the 8-ball in the corner pocket, a straight-in duck shot, the ball rolled towards the corner, hit the end rail, rolled back up table, and made a sharp right-hand turn in the side pocket, resulting in a loss for Greg the Banker.

Me and my buddy Steve were sitting railside, and we could not contain our laughter. My stomach hurt from laughing so hard. If you could seen the expression on Greg the Banker's face. :rotflmao1:

If something like this, kind of Candid Camera-esque, were to be filmed, with today's social media outlets, it might give pool a little boost, which would attract more people to play pool. More people who play pool might create new pro-caliber lady pros.

Just a little thought that might by worthy of consideration for some of those on site who see funny pool happenings. :)
 
Johnnyt said:
What happened to the women players from the U.S.? We don't have one top world female player anymore. I don't even think we have one woman "A" player anymore.

As far as top world men we might have five. The problem is I don't see it getting any better any time soon as long as a pro has to come in the money from first to third to show any kind of a profit. If a U.S. pro goes to five majors in a year in the states and comes in 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 8th, and 10th he might come up even=a big lose for the year.

I think what Mark G. and Joe Tucker are trying to get started might be the answer to breed more top pros in time, but as far as I can see it does nothing to help the top pro players now.

Purses need to be higher and pay further down the chart. If that means $1000 entry fees that only about 16 players can afford...so be it. I also think that half the major U.S tournaments should just be for National players. Sixteen players to start and a few added each six months to a year from the Joe T & Mark G. farm team would be a good format. Johnnyt

PS:I know that only raising the entry fees is nowhere near the whole answer...but it's a start. More sponsorship and TV has to happen too.
Click to expand...

Looking from the outside in, its difficult to understand how the decisions that have been made over the past twenty years didn't get ALLOT better, for the gals. With the visual product women offer to the corporate world it makes little sense the business model has NOT improved or grown. The only commonality I see is the gals involvement and the mens involvement with whomever they have gotten on board to steer the ship....seems similar in outcome. It's seems like....whomever takes the helm is actually controlled by the players on their board....:scratchhead:. The only time that seems to have worked was years ago when the BCA was formed, and dealt With The Game Itself (but that was during its heyday) when people respected the game. Without $tructure, a feeder $ystem and true goal$, society will not embrace our game, and few if any parents will steer their children to become a ''Pool Player''. We are still demonized by that word here. Its no different than a straight person in the sixties looking down upon someone who smokes pot, yet doesn't drink/prejudice and ignorance comes to mind.
 
Hank Dietle's?!

JAM said:
We need a Jean Balukas-type player to step up into the limelight. Not sure there is any female today even in the running for this caliber of play.

Many WPBA players have full-time jobs today. It is not possible to earn a living playing pool professionally, as most of the readers on this forum are aware.

Without full-time dedication to the game, it would be difficult for anyone -- male or female -- to be at the top level of play.

I've said it often, and it's becoming ever-so clear today. The existing lot of American professional pool players is dwindling. The United States enjoys other sports more so than pool, unlike Philippines who places pool on high on their sports list.

A major happening in the pool world could put pool on the mainstream media map, much like Nancy Kerrigan and Tanya Harding. If it was captured on YouTube or video, it could go viral, which then would capture the the mainstream media. It possibly might generate new interest in pool.

Now, I'm not saying Alex Pagulayan has to put Earl Strickland in a choke-hold with his cuestick, but something just like this seems to attract curious onlookers. :o

One time at our neighborhood tavern, Hank Dietle's, we slipped in a trick 8-ball in the bar box. Two of our regulars were playing $5 a game, which for us was big money in the bar. We usually only shot for a buck or a beer. When Greg the Banker went to shoot the 8-ball in the corner pocket, a straight-in duck shot, the ball rolled towards the corner, hit the end rail, rolled back up table, and made a sharp right-hand turn in the side pocket, resulting in a loss for Greg the Banker.

Me and my buddy Steve were sitting railside, and we could not contain our laughter. My stomach hurt from laughing so hard. If you could seen the expression on Greg the Banker's face. :rotflmao1:

If something like this, kind of Candid Camera-esque, were to be filmed, with today's social media outlets, it might give pool a little boost, which would attract more people to play pool. More people who play pool might create new pro-caliber lady pros.

Just a little thought that might by worthy of consideration for some of those on site who see funny pool happenings. :)
Click to expand...

Hank Dietle's!!

I came out of a two-year retirement in 1990, when I stopped into that place for a beer and a game for a buck! I was immediately recruited to join their APA team, and it was where I met my good friend and later teammate, Jimmy Scrima.

Who was Greg the banker?
 
Donny Lutz said:
Hank Dietle's!!

I came out of a two-year retirement in 1990, when I stopped into that place for a beer and a game for a buck! I was immediately recruited to join their APA team, and it was where I met my good friend and later teammate, Jimmy Scrima.

Who was Greg the banker?
Click to expand...

I knew Jimmy Scrima. He played in our league. He was best friends with my friend Snake (Jimmy Tereshuk). I think he played out of a pool room in North Rockville that ain't there any more. I played for Hank's. I was rated a 6 out of a 7. I could play me some 8-ball back in the day.

One day in the league, the last match of the night was a tie-breaker, and it just so happend it was me against Jimmy Scrima's then-girlfriend Vicki. I was so nervous. Why did they pick me to be the tie-breaker? I was sweating it, really feeling the pressure. Vicki hung out at the pool room with Jimmy and was used to playing on the big tables. Me, I was a bar box player. I just couldn't let my team down, yet Vicki was tough action.

I got the break. I looked over at my team captain right before I pulled the trigger on the break and said, "Sonny, 8-ball side pocket." I cracked the rack, and the 8-ball went right in the side pocket like it had eyes. This was a win according with the league rules. My entire team started screaming, cheering loudly. They came over to me, givigng me hugs and high-fives. I was so proud and relieved I didn't let them down. I felt bad for Vicki, but, hey, all is fair in love and pool, right? :grin:

Jimmy Scrima mainly hung out in the pool rooms; whereas, Snake, Greg the Banker, me, et cetera, we were bar players. Greg the Banker was actually president of a local Bank of America; thus, how he got the nickname "Greg the Banker." He was actually one of the better players at Hank's. The game I referenced with the trick 8-ball, he was playing Iranian Moe, who used to be a boxer in Iran. He was an excellent player. I always grabbed him as my partner when he played partner games. :cool:
 
Island Drive said:
Looking from the outside in, its difficult to understand how the decisions that have been made over the past twenty years didn't get ALLOT better, for the gals. With the visual product women offer to the corporate world it makes little sense the business model has NOT improved or grown. The only commonality I see is the gals involvement and the mens involvement with whomever they have gotten on board to steer the ship....seems similar in outcome. It's seems like....whomever takes the helm is actually controlled by the players on their board....:scratchhead:. The only time that seems to have worked was years ago when the BCA was formed, and dealt With The Game Itself (but that was during its heyday) when people respected the game. Without $tructure, a feeder $ystem and true goal$, society will not embrace our game, and few if any parents will steer their children to become a ''Pool Player''. We are still demonized by that word here. Its no different than a straight person in the sixties looking down upon someone who smokes pot, yet doesn't drink/prejudice and ignorance comes to mind.
Click to expand...

Great points. To sort of answer your question, there are too many in the pool world who contribute nothing unless it's very profitable. Too much "me first".

I started a pool league in Wisconsin with eight teams in 1966. It doubled to sixteen teams the next year and thirty-two the next. I had to give up running the league in '69, and it was taken over by a corporation. I took nothing for organizing and directing the league, but it became a big money maker for the company that took it over.

I'm not against a league director being paid; it's a thankless job. What troubles me is organizations that don't produce financial statements and the money seems to disappear into a black hole.
 
Donny Lutz said:
Great points. To sort of answer your question, there are too many in the pool world who contribute nothing unless it's very profitable. Too much "me first".

I started a pool league in Wisconsin with eight teams in 1966. It doubled to sixteen teams the next year and thirty-two the next. I had to give up running the league in '69, and it was taken over by a corporation. I took nothing for organizing and directing the league, but it became a big money maker for the company that took it over.

I'm not against a league director being paid; it's a thankless job. What troubles me is organizations that don't produce financial statements and the money seems to disappear into a black hole.
Click to expand...

Living in CO for nearly four decades, and Colorado Springs in the earlier years of leagues. We at one time had more leagues than ANY other state. There was good money, and we now have 4 or five leagues. In the early yrs our city produced many team winners (6) from 79 to 82 with both the men and women winning the same yr twice. But the money. What has happened is the same. No disclosure, no payout predictions, no piece of the advertising action etc, and if it the league operator didn't like the winning team, they would adjust dramatically their payout structure to the other teams. The world of pool/bars/alcohol/dysfunction/greed and ignorance breed this type of mindset. Its one of the ''Core'' problems with our game.
 
bankoutallday said:
Johnny,
Do you feel that it's right for certain women's players to get their share of the limelight when their games are so weak. Watching the livestream last night was painful. Wouldn't the time spent on them be better spent showing all the regional shortstops who play just a level or two below top gear? This is the group that doesn't get the exposure and this is the group that is the pool of future top level players.
Click to expand...
Thass what he's saying. Some domestic ladies :outtahere: need to step up and start handin out some whuppins.
 
It's the future you see, Johnny.
Asia, with China in the forefront, are the leaders to come. Not only are they demonstrating dominance in economics, technology, energy, and productivity, but sports activities, as well. Take a look at the LPGA, for example.
It's a brave new world, Johnny, and you and I aren't in it. :smile:
 
Johnnyt said:
What happened to the women players from the U.S.? We don't have one top world female player anymore. I don't even think we have one woman "A" player anymore.

As far as top world men we might have five. The problem is I don't see it getting any better any time soon as long as a pro has to come in the money from first to third to show any kind of a profit. If a U.S. pro goes to five majors in a year in the states and comes in 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 8th, and 10th he might come up even=a big lose for the year.

I think what Mark G. and Joe Tucker are trying to get started might be the answer to breed more top pros in time, but as far as I can see it does nothing to help the top pro players now.

Purses need to be higher and pay further down the chart. If that means $1000 entry fees that only about 16 players can afford...so be it. I also think that half the major U.S tournaments should just be for National players. Sixteen players to start and a few added each six months to a year from the Joe T & Mark G. farm team would be a good format. Johnnyt

PS:I know that only raising the entry fees is nowhere near the whole answer...but it's a start. More sponsorship and TV has to happen too.
Click to expand...

I agree with larger entry fees and bigger purses paying more money to the players.

IMO this can only be accomplished by running multiple qualifiers for the tournaments. Look what this did for The World Series of Poker.

There is a little of this going on now with some of the localized tours, but the players who might become champions need a chance to mix it up more often with the better players and winning the entry fee through a qualifier might be the way to go.
 
bankoutallday said:
Johnny,
Do you feel that it's right for certain women's players to get their share of the limelight when their games are so weak. Watching the livestream last night was painful. Wouldn't the time spent on them be better spent showing all the regional shortstops who play just a level or two below top gear? This is the group that doesn't get the exposure and this is the group that is the pool of future top level players.
Click to expand...

Maybe show casing women players will help the sport grow by attracting more women players and beginners ? It can be tough to balance current compensation and future growth.

Growth of future top players and growth of the industry are not necessarily the same thing, but they can affect one another. Bringing more new players into the sport such as women and kids will grow the industry and then potentially bring more dollars in pro pool.

Look at kids soccer. If you are old enough, then you remember when kids soccer leagues did not exist. Look at it now and the money families are spending on equipment, camps, etc..
 
That's a misnomer...

Tramp Steamer said:
It's the future you see, Johnny.
Asia, with China in the forefront, are the leaders to come. Not only are they demonstrating dominance in economics, technology, energy, and productivity, but sports activities, as well. Take a look at the LPGA, for example.
It's a brave new world, Johnny, and you and I aren't in it. :smile:
Click to expand...

China's seemingly advanced economy is built on an unsustainable sham of a model and has already seen dramatic decline over projections.

Their economic juggernaut is built on a complete disregard to environmental impact through manufacturing and slave labor type wages for their workers.

This type of economic development is unsustainable and will eventually wreck havoc on the world economies.

Once they are too polluted to continue in the growth that they are seeing (already approaching that), then prices will rise and other countries will be forced to redevelop their own manufacturing. It isn't likely that the US will be able to recapture its economic juggernaut status but it is not likely in the near future that the US will play second fiddle to anyone in the world without continued MASSIVE blunders by those in power.

We could drastically help not only our economy but the world's economy by instituting import tariffs and returning manufacturing to our own country for this very reason.

We are practically unique in the ability to maintain an isolationist state (not advocating that, just pointing out the possibility) without drastic cost. We have practically every resource here to do so with the exception of portable energy.

Open trade can ONLY be successful with trade agreements that include environmental impact protection and wage equality. It's a fool who believes otherwise or someone with machiavellian intent towards the US and or world economies.

Jaden
 
As in the words of the Fat Man, "show me the cash". There ain't no money in pool, why would we have a bunch of top women and/or men players.
 
Jaden said:
China's seemingly advanced economy is built on an unsustainable sham of a model and has already seen dramatic decline over projections.

Their economic juggernaut is built on a complete disregard to environmental impact through manufacturing and slave labor type wages for their workers.

This type of economic development is unsustainable and will eventually wreck havoc on the world economies.

Once they are too polluted to continue in the growth that they are seeing (already approaching that), then prices will rise and other countries will be forced to redevelop their own manufacturing. It isn't likely that the US will be able to recapture its economic juggernaut status but it is not likely in the near future that the US will play second fiddle to anyone in the world without continued MASSIVE blunders by those in power.

We could drastically help not only our economy but the world's economy by instituting import tariffs and returning manufacturing to our own country for this very reason.

We are practically unique in the ability to maintain an isolationist state (not advocating that, just pointing out the possibility) without drastic cost. We have practically every resource here to do so with the exception of portable energy.

Open trade can ONLY be successful with trade agreements that include environmental impact protection and wage equality. It's a fool who believes otherwise or someone with machiavellian intent towards the US and or world economies.

Jaden
Click to expand...

I have been saying this for years...gald I'm not alone..
 
Jaden said:
China's seemingly advanced economy is built on an unsustainable sham of a model and has already seen dramatic decline over projections.

Their economic juggernaut is built on a complete disregard to environmental impact through manufacturing and slave labor type wages for their workers.

This type of economic development is unsustainable and will eventually wreck havoc on the world economies.

Once they are too polluted to continue in the growth that they are seeing (already approaching that), then prices will rise and other countries will be forced to redevelop their own manufacturing. It isn't likely that the US will be able to recapture its economic juggernaut status but it is not likely in the near future that the US will play second fiddle to anyone in the world without continued MASSIVE blunders by those in power.

We could drastically help not only our economy but the world's economy by instituting import tariffs and returning manufacturing to our own country for this very reason.

We are practically unique in the ability to maintain an isolationist state (not advocating that, just pointing out the possibility) without drastic cost. We have practically every resource here to do so with the exception of portable energy.

Open trade can ONLY be successful with trade agreements that include environmental impact protection and wage equality. It's a fool who believes otherwise or someone with machiavellian intent towards the US and or world economies.

Jaden
Click to expand...

Great points.
 
Jaden said:
China's seemingly advanced economy is built on an unsustainable sham of a model and has already seen dramatic decline over projections.
Their economic juggernaut is built on a complete disregard to environmental impact through manufacturing and slave labor type wages for their workers.
This type of economic development is unsustainable and will eventually wreck havoc on the world economies.
Once they are too polluted to continue in the growth that they are seeing (already approaching that), then prices will rise and other countries will be forced to redevelop their own manufacturing. It isn't likely that the US will be able to recapture its economic juggernaut status but it is not likely in the near future that the US will play second fiddle to anyone in the world without continued MASSIVE blunders by those in power.
We could drastically help not only our economy but the world's economy by instituting import tariffs and returning manufacturing to our own country for this very reason.
We are practically unique in the ability to maintain an isolationist state (not advocating that, just pointing out the possibility) without drastic cost. We have practically every resource here to do so with the exception of portable energy.
Open trade can ONLY be successful with trade agreements that include environmental impact protection and wage equality. It's a fool who believes otherwise or someone with machiavellian intent towards the US and or world economies.
Jaden
Click to expand...

All your points have validity, Jaden, but it won't be the United States who comes to the rescue. China holds far too much of our assets. In addition, China is currently buying gold in record quantities to the extent that the Yuan will eventually replace the Dollar as the de-facto world currency. When that happens we're toast.

P.S. Sorry about all the N.P.R. stuff, everyone.
 
JAM said:
We need a Jean Balukas-type player to step up into the limelight. Not sure there is any female today even in the running for this caliber of play.

Many WPBA players have full-time jobs today. It is not possible to earn a living playing pool professionally, as most of the readers on this forum are aware.

Without full-time dedication to the game, it would be difficult for anyone -- male or female -- to be at the top level of play.

I've said it often, and it's becoming ever-so clear today. The existing lot of American professional pool players is dwindling. The United States enjoys other sports more so than pool, unlike Philippines who places pool on high on their sports list.

A major happening in the pool world could put pool on the mainstream media map, much like Nancy Kerrigan and Tanya Harding. If it was captured on YouTube or video, it could go viral, which then would capture the the mainstream media. It possibly might generate new interest in pool.

Now, I'm not saying Alex Pagulayan has to put Earl Strickland in a choke-hold with his cuestick, but something just like this seems to attract curious onlookers. :o

One time at our neighborhood tavern, Hank Dietle's, we slipped in a trick 8-ball in the bar box. Two of our regulars were playing $5 a game, which for us was big money in the bar. We usually only shot for a buck or a beer. When Greg the Banker went to shoot the 8-ball in the corner pocket, a straight-in duck shot, the ball rolled towards the corner, hit the end rail, rolled back up table, and made a sharp right-hand turn in the side pocket, resulting in a loss for Greg the Banker.

Me and my buddy Steve were sitting railside, and we could not contain our laughter. My stomach hurt from laughing so hard. If you could seen the expression on Greg the Banker's face. :rotflmao1:

If something like this, kind of Candid Camera-esque, were to be filmed, with today's social media outlets, it might give pool a little boost, which would attract more people to play pool. More people who play pool might create new pro-caliber lady pros.

Just a little thought that might by worthy of consideration for some of those on site who see funny pool happenings. :)
Click to expand...

There are a few women players that Jean couldn't have won against. I personally think Corr, and both Fishers played better when all played in their prime. Jean had no competition. Does Karen Corr, Allison Fisher, or Kelly Fisher have another job other than pool?
 
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