Touch of Center

[one stroke]

You seem very upset & I don't understand why. Both I & CJ have agreed with some of your points. As I said before, if you're happy with the way you're playing, all good & well. No one is trying to force you to do anything. Put whatever you don't like or want to try on a shelf somewhere. You may want to pull it down at some time in the future or you may never think of it again. It's all up to you.

Keep in mind CJ is not just a talented player. He is a former World Champion & one of, if not the best gambling players of his time.

Is Efren, Shane, Earl, Dennnis, Fransico, or Johnny here right now trying to give back to the game by trying to help others play better?

I'm not saying that they will not be doing that at some time in the future, but they are not here now & CJ is.

Regards

Sorry I read this on my I phone did not see the sarcasm part


Sarcasm: It's rather amazing to me that so many serious pool players just played with so little concentration before being introduced to TOI. In any case it is also so amazing that a little gimmick like TOI could do what years of effort & so much money spent on lessons could not, get inconsistant strokes to hit center cue ball. Amazing, simply amazing.

I'm certainly not upset and yes it's nice to see CJ giving back to the sport he loves more should do the same

I was not arguing whether or not his system works the conversation was the collation between golf and pool and the different styles that have had similar success.

As for me and my pool game I'm like many who are competitive by nature never really satisfied I tinker with different things from time to time but I understand at 53 nobody makes significant strides unless your just learning the game but for someone who's played over 40 yrs no system is going to take them from mid B to A+ IMHO
But never the less I will eventually try his system like I have others and incorporate the parts that I think will help my game as I have done with other systems. I even have gone as far as to see a sports shrink because my focus was out of whack and to date that's the best money I ever spent on pool

In fact I might become a Guinea pig get the tapes and document my progress
and see if it raises my play

So the long and short if it is I'm advocate of the game and a wise man once said the game is the teacher

Sorry if there's been any confusion

1

 

[ENGLISH!]

Sorry I read this on my I phone did not see the sarcasm part


Sarcasm: It's rather amazing to me that so many serious pool players just played with so little concentration before being introduced to TOI. In any case it is also so amazing that a little gimmick like TOI could do what years of effort & so much money spent on lessons could not, get inconsistant strokes to hit center cue ball. Amazing, simply amazing.

I'm certainly not upset and yes it's nice to see CJ giving back to the sport he loves more should do the same

I was not arguing whether or not his system works the conversation was the collation between golf and pool and the different styles that have had similar success.

As for me and my pool game I'm like many who are competitive by nature never really satisfied I tinker with different things from time to time but I understand at 53 nobody makes significant strides unless your just learning the game but for someone who's played over 40 yrs no system is going to take them from mid B to A+ IMHO
But never the less I will eventually try his system like I have others and incorporate the parts that I think will help my game as I have done with other systems. I even have gone as far as to see a sports shrink because my focus was out of whack and to date that's the best money I ever spent on pool

In fact I might become a Guinea pig get the tapes and document my progress
and see if it raises my play

So the long and short if it is I'm advocate of the game and a wise man once said the game is the teacher

Sorry if there's been any confusion

1

1,

Yeah, I think there was a bit of confusion. I quess I should have put the word 'sarcasim' in bold blue caps.

I'm glad we could come to an amiacable understanding.

Best Wishes to You & Play Well,

 

[CJ Wiley]

Don't get more confused, using the TOI anyone can still spin the cue ball

I play different sides of a pocket also depending on angle and English I'm obviously not your speed but I'm a good B player when I'm in gear at 53 I don't stand to get much better on limited time but I do tinker with these systems but I have yet to stick with just one I use different ones for different shots


1

Certainly "be at choice," I like the way you play and I play that way myself, when I'm stalling.

The thing that no one will ever figure out, except by the experience is that ANY shot can be make hitting the inside of the cue ball. I"m not just talking about making the ball, of course you can do that with center, outside, or whatever.

I'm talking about the position part of TOI, do you really think Efren could beat me if he only used outside or center and I only used inside? I hope you don't because it would be terribly lopsided, I could probably spot him the 7 (or anyone else in the world for that matter).

Don't get more confused, using the TOI anyone can still spin the cue ball any way they choose, they just always look for the TOI shot first. And if there isn't one, then you go from your TOI spot on the cue ball to where you need to hit to create the shot you desire. Very simple, very easy. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[The Renfro]

Certainly "be at choice," I like the way you play and I play that way myself, when I'm stalling.

The thing that no one will ever figure out, except by the experience is that ANY shot can be make hitting the inside of the cue ball. I"m not just talking about making the ball, of course you can do that with center, outside, or whatever.

I'm talking about the position part of TOI, do you really think Efren could beat me if he only used outside or center and I only used inside? I hope you don't because it would be terribly lopsided, I could probably spot him the 7 (or anyone else in the world for that matter).

Don't get more confused, using the TOI anyone can still spin the cue ball any way they choose, they just always look for the TOI shot first. And if there isn't one, then you go from your TOI spot on the cue ball to where you need to hit to create the shot you desire. Very simple, very easy. 'The Game is the Teacher'

you coming to Tunica again this year?? I'm gonna kick you square in the TOI when I see you... I'll pay for a lesson first... TOI for a pivot player is the nuts.. but you can quit spoon feeding already!!!!!!

Chris

 

[CJ Wiley]

maybe just to see all the gorgeous cocktail waitresses.

you coming to Tunica again this year?? I'm gonna kick you square in the TOI when I see you... I'll pay for a lesson first... TOI for a pivot player is the nuts.. but you can quit spoon feeding already!!!!!!

Chris

Yes, I probably will, maybe just to see all the gorgeous cocktail waitresses.

You're right, the spoon feeding has to stop, there's enough players wanting the more advanced stuff and I've answered some of these questions in fifty different ways..... literally. If you notice it's the same objections over and over about how you MUST use English on shots...I'm not sure who started this rumor, but they did a great job.

I guess they all got together and formed the "Touch of English" (TOE") association without telling anyone. When you understand spin and deflection you can certainly poke holes in the "TOE," that's for sure.

 

[one stroke]

Certainly "be at choice," I like the way you play and I play that way myself, when I'm stalling.

The thing that no one will ever figure out, except by the experience is that ANY shot can be make hitting the inside of the cue ball. I"m not just talking about making the ball, of course you can do that with center, outside, or whatever.

I'm talking about the position part of TOI, do you really think Efren could beat me if he only used outside or center and I only used inside? I hope you don't because it would be terribly lopsided, I could probably spot him the 7 (or anyone else in the world for that matter).

Don't get more confused, using the TOI anyone can still spin the cue ball any way they choose, they just always look for the TOI shot first. And if there isn't one, then you go from your TOI spot on the cue ball to where you need to hit to create the shot you desire. Very simple, very easy. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Now come on let's not get too carried away you might catch him off gaurd with that but give him a week off practice and I'm relatively sure he will take the 7 with a big smile on his face if the only thing your using is TOI

1

 

[vapoolplayer]

.................

 

[LAMas]

So today I was getting whupped by a friend of mine. After missing a lot of shots in the first couple of sets, I recalled the "touch of inside" technique. As I understand it, TOI suggests putting just a tiny fraction of inside English on some (most?) shots to help increase pocketing accuracy. My understanding is that the suggested English is tiny, a nudge or 1/32nd of a tip or something of that nature.

Using that amount of English requires that you concentrate very precisely on your tip position. So I tried applying that level of focus to the tip position, but instead of cueing with a touch of inside English, I cued for center ball (or whatever English I needed for the shot). And my pocketing percentage went up. All of a sudden I was running out. I was also pocketing the ball in the part of the pocket I wanted to and planning precisely the kind of spin I wanted on the cue ball, so my position play improved. My confidence went up too. I'm no US Open champion, and I still missed some shots, but this certainly helped.

I call this approach "touch of center," or TOC. It requires focusing on your tip position down to about 1/32nd of a tip, and cueing wherever you otherwise would. Try it; you may like it.

Do you raise the tip for forced follow?

 

[TSW]

Do you raise the tip for forced follow?

Of course. I cue wherever I need to to get the reaction I want.

My point is simply that TOI works because it makes you focus on the precise tip position, instead of just assuming the tip is where you think it is. You can get the same beneficial effect by putting that level of focus into finding center ball, or wherever you want to cue.

 

[CJ Wiley]

the feeling and touch of a heavier cue ball, which is easier to control.

Even if someone would follow the advice to use all the time TOI- even then he would have to hit the cueball all the time at the same point to get repeatable results ( a hair next to center as you call it), and if he/she s not able to do this, and furthermore not able to control his speed really good-what then? If he get s more "outside" the cb deflects more, if he/she would go less outside , the cb would deflect less. So where is the key here to consistancy?

TOI is for sure a piece of knowledge you need to learn- but all negative comments about trying to hit center axis also fits for the *toi theory*

just my opinion- and for sure not meant to start the next cyber-war.

lg
Ingo

Yes, one of the main things a professional must do is create a degree of error in their targeting that still produces positive results.

The Touch Of Inside System involves favoring the side of the call reflective of the cut you are faced with (TOI is not used on straight in shots). If you are cutting the ball to the right, you cue the ball Inside/Right, if you are cutting a ball to the left, you align to the cue ball Inside/Left.

This creates a situation where you are always deflecting the cue ball slightly so the object ball OVER CUTS slightly. This enables you to calibrate your {TOI} shots to the center of the pocket, this will guarantee that you are aligning to the part of the pocket closest to the object ball.

This creates the "pocket zone" we call the 3 Part Pocket System, becasue you are aligning to the nearest part, hitting the center part, and if you go too far TOI you will still hit the 3rd part of the pocket.

This effectively makes your "pocket zone" much larger and gives an uncanny ability to "cheat the pocket" instead of relying on spin. This requires NO SPIN and will give the feeling and touch of a heavier cue ball, which is easier to control.

 

[CK6Speed]

Of course. I cue wherever I need to to get the reaction I want.

My point is simply that TOI works because it makes you focus on the precise tip position, instead of just assuming the tip is where you think it is. You can get the same beneficial effect by putting that level of focus into finding center ball, or wherever you want to cue.

Attempting to incorporate as much TOI as I can into my game, I have notices the opposite effect for me. I've been able to incorporate about 50% of my routine shots into my game. What I have noticed for myself, is when I address the cue ball with TOI, for that particular shot I can actually focus less on hitting the precise point of contact on the cue ball and focus more simply on stroke and speed. Given the fact I have come to have faith that I no longer have to be precise on the cue ball to make the shot has simplified the game a lot for me. I know I can hit the precise TOI point I was aiming for, a little more inside of that, or even a little right of that and make the shot most of the time. This is my experience only.

I'm not as good a player as many of you members are. I'm an APA league player and only an SL7 in 8-Ball and SL8/9 in 9-Ball. For guys like me simplifying the game has been a tremendous help. Like CJ mentioned a few posts above, I now look to see if I can make the shot and position using TOI. So far about 50% of the time I think I can. If I don't have the confidence to get position using TOI, I simply use what I think I need to use. At least for me this had made my game much more consistent. I don't break and run racks all day, but I can break and run my fair share at any given time. I used to use a lot of outside english in my game since I was taught it was the helping english. Now I find I only use it about 30% of the time.

 

[JB Cases]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSW View Post
Of course. I cue wherever I need to to get the reaction I want.

My point is simply that TOI works because it makes you focus on the precise tip position, instead of just assuming the tip is where you think it is. You can get the same beneficial effect by putting that level of focus into finding center ball, or wherever you want to cue.

I don't think so. I designed this ball to be just the type of aid to training focus and I found that even with increased focus it's incredibly difficult to actually hit the spot you intend to hit and that includes center ball.

I find that TOI isn't about focusing on a point to hit but more on favoring one side of center ever so slightly to take focus OFF worrying about hitting a precise point.

Of course with practice you definitely end up with a consistent grouping of hits even if you can't hit the EXACT spot each time.

 

[Scott Lee]

TSW...Sounds to me like you've learned something. BTW, a "tip" of english is about 3mm, regardless of how big the tip on your cue is, or where on the tip you hit the CB. It doesn't change from stick to stick...so your description of 1/32 tip of english is not really relevant or accurate. Everything else you posted I liked. TOI is certainly not for everyone.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

So today I was getting whupped by a friend of mine. After missing a lot of shots in the first couple of sets, I recalled the "touch of inside" technique. As I understand it, TOI suggests putting just a tiny fraction of inside English on some (most?) shots to help increase pocketing accuracy. My understanding is that the suggested English is tiny, a nudge or 1/32nd of a tip or something of that nature.

Using that amount of English requires that you concentrate very precisely on your tip position. So I tried applying that level of focus to the tip position, but instead of cueing with a touch of inside English, I cued for center ball (or whatever English I needed for the shot). And my pocketing percentage went up. All of a sudden I was running out. I was also pocketing the ball in the part of the pocket I wanted to and planning precisely the kind of spin I wanted on the cue ball, so my position play improved. My confidence went up too. I'm no US Open champion, and I still missed some shots, but this certainly helped.

I call this approach "touch of center," or TOC. It requires focusing on your tip position down to about 1/32nd of a tip, and cueing wherever you otherwise would. Try it; you may like it.

 

[Neil]

I don't think so. I designed this ball to be just the type of aid to training focus and I found that even with increased focus it's incredibly difficult to actually hit the spot you intend to hit and that includes center ball.

I find that TOI isn't about focusing on a point to hit but more on favoring one side of center ever so slightly to take focus OFF worrying about hitting a precise point.

Of course with practice you definitely end up with a consistent grouping of hits even if you can't hit the EXACT spot each time.

John, it's not just favoring one side of the cb. It's about favoring it so little that you only have enough spin on the cb to counteract collision induced spin upon contact with the ob. Any more spin than that, and you aren't using TOI, you are just using inside english. And, the more you use, the more the cb will squirt, which means that you are guessing on how much squirt you will actually have.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Attempting to incorporate as much TOI as I can into my game, I have notices the opposite effect for me. I've been able to incorporate about 50% of my routine shots into my game. What I have noticed for myself, is when I address the cue ball with TOI, for that particular shot I can actually focus less on hitting the precise point of contact on the cue ball and focus more simply on stroke and speed. Given the fact I have come to have faith that I no longer have to be precise on the cue ball to make the shot has simplified the game a lot for me. I know I can hit the precise TOI point I was aiming for, a little more inside of that, or even a little right of that and make the shot most of the time. This is my experience only.

I'm not as good a player as many of you members are. I'm an APA league player and only an SL7 in 8-Ball and SL8/9 in 9-Ball. For guys like me simplifying the game has been a tremendous help. Like CJ mentioned a few posts above, I now look to see if I can make the shot and position using TOI. So far about 50% of the time I think I can. If I don't have the confidence to get position using TOI, I simply use what I think I need to use. At least for me this had made my game much more consistent. I don't break and run racks all day, but I can break and run my fair share at any given time. I used to use a lot of outside english in my game since I was taught it was the helping english. Now I find I only use it about 30% of the time.

Good for you.

Good post.

All the Best to You,

 

[ENGLISH!]

I don't think so. I designed this ball to be just the type of aid to training focus and I found that even with increased focus it's incredibly difficult to actually hit the spot you intend to hit and that includes center ball.

I find that TOI isn't about focusing on a point to hit but more on favoring one side of center ever so slightly to take focus OFF worrying about hitting a precise point.

Of course with practice you definitely end up with a consistent grouping of hits even if you can't hit the EXACT spot each time.

John,

Well said & that is exactly what I have found regarding TOI, even though I have, in the past, not been focusing on the nearly impossible task of hitting the center of the cue ball consistently but have been concentrating & focusing on hitting varying points for different englishs.

Best Regards,

 

[JB Cases]

John, it's not just favoring one side of the cb. It's about favoring it so little that you only have enough spin on the cb to counteract collision induced spin upon contact with the ob. Any more spin than that, and you aren't using TOI, you are just using inside english. And, the more you use, the more the cb will squirt, which means that you are guessing on how much squirt you will actually have.

Neil,

It's a technique. We can talk about the science all day but the fact of it is that it's simply a way to address the cue ball that a pro player found works extremely well for him and has shared it with others.

I have never had a conversation IN THE POOL ROOM about how MUCH squirt/deflection/swerve/squerve or whatever that any particular cue or technique puts on the ball and certainly not any that would have ever talked about a precise amount. The conversation in the pool room goes like this, aim here - hit here - this happens.

Only on AZ do we get into the minute details with a lot of physics thrown in. Which is not a bad thing but it can derail otherwise good conversations where people just want to talk about how a method or technique is working for them.

I think if anyone on this forum can predict accurately how much squirt/deflection/swerve/squerve they will get every time they hit the cue ball then they either are a world champion or will be one shortly. Otherwise we are ALL guessing and using the tools and techniques we have to reduce the amount of guesswork as much as possible.

 

[Black-Balled]

I'm stalling.
do you really think Efren could beat me if he only used outside or center and I only used inside? I hope you don't because it would be terribly lopsided, I could probably spot him the 7 (or anyone else in the world for that matter).

how could that be, over any session of significant measure?

wit a table's symmetricalshape, i dont see how one would even stand a chance, using one english, vs, another who can use one english +.

 

[One Pocket John]

You always want to try to stay within the "core" of the cue ball.

The cue ball will feel heavier. TOI brings us to that realization.

Outside of the cue ball core leaves less feel of control.

John :wink:

 

[ENGLISH!]

John,

I hear you & CJ but I have a pretty good feel of control with english after 46 years too.

Control is a relative word. Right now there is a good battle going on.:wink:

Best Regards,