Toughest race in APA 8Ball?

Andrew Manning

Andrew Manning

Aspiring know-it-all
Silver Member
DISCLAIMER:
This thread mentions the APA and its handicapping system. PLEASE do not hijack it and fill it with the usual complaints/criticisms we've heard ad nauseum about the handicap system or its manipulation by some individuals. I just want to talk about the actual matches themselves.

Now that I've said that:

I'd like to hear opinions about what race in APA 8Ball (handicapped, not masters) is the hardest for the stronger player to win, assuming both players are rated accurately.

I think I played the hardest one last week. I'm a 7, and I got matched up against a 4 on the other team. For those who don't play APA, that means I need 5 racks, he needs 2. He isn't the strongest 4 in the room, but he's far from the weakest. At one point a couple seasons back I believe he was rated a 5.

I lost the lag, and on the opening break he sank the 8 for the win. I now needed to win 5 racks in a row against a very competent player, starting on his break.

Without describing all the details, I did pull through in the end, but it wasn't pretty. There were times when he had control of the table and a wide open layout (9' table, loose pockets), and all I could do was hope for an unforced error. I missed easy shots on the 8 to complete runouts from my break twice in my first 4 wins. Finally, at hill-hill, I managed to break and run out for the match.

Anyway, it was a unique challenge to my mental toughness (not my greatest strength) to say the least. Any other interesting stories or opinions about handicapped races that are tough for the stronger player to win?

-Andrew
 
Im with ya.

The 7-4 matchup is brutal.

Not a lot of room for error when your spotting 3 games on a race to 5.


-Bryan
 
I think that is the hardest race for a 7. I remember when I was a 4 and I played a 7 in the city tournament (i was a pretty strong 4). It was a 5-2 race and I won 2-0 to move my team to the next round. I'm a 7 and I don't look forward to playing 4's.
 
I agree with the 4-7 matchup. I am a 7 and do not look forward to shooting a 4. I would rather shoot a 2 or a 3 than a 4. Some 4 can run the table on a really good night. And it seems that when they play me they get psyched up to do a really good job.
 
Agreed, 4's can and will run an easy lay-out now and then....gives you a good idea on match-ups going forward :D
 
Andrew, agreed 7 vs. 4 is toughest. It really should be a 6-3 race, but I guess in the interest of match length, APA cuts it to 5-2. I mean a 4 still has to win 3 games to beat a 6 right?
 
I am not a 7....was only a SL 5 in APA.

That being said, a solid to good 4 can be a nightmare for any opponent. Especially if that person was a 5 and was dropped back to a 4, as the OP said.

A 4 at that level will have decent kicking ability, should have some knowledge of safes and decent shot making ability. Additionally, smart ones, which will probably be the case if they shoot on 9 ft tables, probably won't make many of the same mistakes repeatedly during a match.

the 4 needing only 2 racks only compounds that problem. Doesn't give the 7 much, if any room for error, if against a good 4, especially if he/she is playing well.


Flettir said:
I agree with the 4-7 matchup. I am a 7 and do not look forward to shooting a 4. I would rather shoot a 2 or a 3 than a 4. Some 4 can run the table on a really good night. And it seems that when they play me they get psyched up to do a really good job.
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No doubt about it 7-4 is the toughest. One mistake or scratch and the 4 is on the hill. I think the next hardest is the 6 playing a 3 handicap.
 
I played the singles qualifier in Warren, Ohio, mid 1993. I was a sub on my wife's team. I had to play a 4, race 5 to 2. I had him 4-0 and I made the 8 on the break and scratched. Talk about pressure. I made it through though.

Good luck if you are thinking about trying to get that rule changed. We, meaning myself and about 40 other players confronted Terry Bell in 1983 or '84 when the shortened format was first introduced. Terry specifically told us that there wouldn't be any male 2's in the league.

When I mentioned in the proposed shortened format, that a 3 drops to a 2 in the shortened race, his only explanation is that that doesn't change his rating, only the race. LOL

We contested the format and it remained unchanged in regular league play for about 1 year, but stayed shortened in National play, then it was either quit playing or join the group.

I quit playing except as a sub for 1 year and haven't played since.

Yes, that is probably the toughest race if the 4 is under handicapped already, or if your ability is slightly off.
 
I knew the answer to your question without reading your story: 4s are the toughest matchups.

Checking my stats, I'm 4-4 vs. other 7s (last season wasn't great), 14-3 against 5s and 6s (7-0 vs. 6s!), rarely lose to 2s and 3s, but only 1-1 against 4s.

I think there's a pattern there. Can you tell who I like to play and who I avoid playing?

Cory
 
I only played for 2 years, but I don't think I lost one race to a 7 as a 4 or a 5. One 7 cried everytime he played our team since he couldn't beat either of our 4s ro 5s (and our 7 and 6 RARELY played). He did have a point since we played even every week in a tourney and I knocked him out of it quite a few times. Problem was that I would lose to a 4 for a couple of weeks, then beat a 7, and a 6, lose to a 3, beat another 7....

Maybe the 7s don't concentrate against the 4s and 5s the way they would against another 7....I know I didn't against lower rated opponents (at least for awhile). It's a big spot, and dropping down 2 games does exaggerate it, but if a 7 loses 50% or more of his matches against 4s, he shouldn't be a 7.
 
I love how quick AZers are to bash the APA, but know like the back if their hand the SLs and races APA uses. :smile:

I guess we are fortunate most AZers take the time off from the pro tour to respond to the little guys around here who frequent the AZ.

Just as difficult, IMO is SL5 vs SL3, a four to two race. A SL5 is not often a threat to run out, and can only give one game before thier opponent is on the hill. That's a tough race, and SL3s can be every bit as good as some SL4s, many seem to bouce back and forth more frequently than other SLs, from what I've seen. These two SLs also happen to make up the majority of the league.
 
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trustyrusty said:
I only played for 2 years, but I don't think I lost one race to a 7 as a 4 or a 5. One 7 cried everytime he played our team since he couldn't beat either of our 4s ro 5s (and our 7 and 6 RARELY played). He did have a point since we played even every week in a tourney and I knocked him out of it quite a few times. Problem was that I would lose to a 4 for a couple of weeks, then beat a 7, and a 6, lose to a 3, beat another 7....

Maybe the 7s don't concentrate against the 4s and 5s the way they would against another 7....I know I didn't against lower rated opponents (at least for awhile). It's a big spot, and dropping down 2 games does exaggerate it, but if a 7 loses 50% or more of his matches against 4s, he shouldn't be a 7.
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I think it more likely that the 4 finally concentrates against the 7s.

As a 7 I know I watch people play me and the same person play other SLs and its not the same. Guys that never play safe start playing them.

7-4 is IMO the toughest SL to SL race.
 
Those matches against a lower player such as a 4 is tough because they could be on the high end and are capable of making shots and running out with a open table. The other problem is trying to hook a opponent in a slop league. They get lucky and make a hard shot or the CB travels around the table enough to contact another ball and makes it. The run continues and they win the game.

The only way to avoid this is for your captain not to throw you out if he has to put a player up. This way you can at least be put up against a higher ranking player of your choosing.
 
TheBook said:
The other problem is trying to hook a opponent in a slop league. They get lucky and make a hard shot or the CB travels around the table enough to contact another ball and makes it. The run continues and they win the game.
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It rarely happens that matches are won or lost like this. Yes, it's frustrating when this happens, but it goes both ways, and I've both taken advantage and been bitten by slop. I don't ever recall the better player losing because of slop rules.
 
not sure it's a concentration issue against 4s; maybe for some. I agree that true 7s should still win the majority of matches vs. 4s, but I also agree that it's the toughest match-up, if only b/c the 4 -- at least generally competent at ball-pocketing, especially on a barbox -- only needs 2 racks.

While the 7 will have many 5-0 wins against a 4 (I mean, they are significantly favored to win any given rack), if they are having a rough night at all, and making any mistakes, they can easily lose. And lose quick. Shot-selection in matches against lower-rated players (e.g. play overly-aggressive and passing on good safes), often leads to these mistakes, at least for me.
 
frankncali said:
I think it more likely that the 4 finally concentrates against the 7s.

As a 7 I know I watch people play me and the same person play other SLs and its not the same. Guys that never play safe start playing them.

7-4 is IMO the toughest SL to SL race.
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true, as a 4 you are starting to get a bit of a grasp on the game (even moreso if you have good higher SLs on your team that will work w/you, and help with everything they can), and you really want to not only play the better players, but beat them too! My only complaint about playing a 7 (and I played a buncha them as a 4 and 5) was that I LOST a game....only going to 2 or 3 depending on my SL. So, now I'm a bit ticked about paying $7 or whatever and missing out on a game, AND I wanna beat the better player (take that for making me only go to 2)!! lol :p
 
Klink said:
No doubt about it 7-4 is the toughest. One mistake or scratch and the 4 is on the hill. I think the next hardest is the 6 playing a 3 handicap.
Click to expand...

And just when you get yourself mentally prepared for the fact that he could be on the hill after your first mistake, he goes and makes the 8 on the opening break, and thus you didn't even have to make a mistake to let him to the hill (except losing the lag)!

-Andrew
 
trustyrusty said:
I know I didn't against lower rated opponents (at least for awhile). It's a big spot, and dropping down 2 games does exaggerate it, but if a 7 loses 50% or more of his matches against 4s, he shouldn't be a 7.
Click to expand...

SL7 could mean you are an overachieving SL6, or a top flight backstop. I used to shoot on a team with two SLs who would alternate play every other week. They hardly ever lost to anybody, ever. Both have high runs of 69 and over eighty balls in straight pool, if that's a guage.

In contrast, a really good SL4 should be a good shot maker, but really just learning to control the cue ball. Sure they might get lucky, but a decent SL7, IMO, should clearly outclass an SL4.
 
Sounds like pretty much everybody agrees as to what the hardest race is.

As a twist, which race do you think is the easiest for the better player to win? As a 7, I think I have my best chance to win against 5's. I find that 5's can be counted on, in my division at least, to make enough balls to open the table up pretty well before making a mistake and giving me control. As long as I don't get all my balls out of their way and dog the 8, I find I generally get an awful lot of easy (wide open) 5 ball outs, or when there is trouble, at least there's not a lot of clutter to complicate the rack too much. After I've punished one or two of their misses by running out, they get even more likely to dog balls at inopportune times and leave me further golden opportunities, because they get a little tight and a little nervous about missing. Since they need 3 racks, I have nothing to be too scared of, and I come out and shoot confidently, and I take down the match almost all the time.

-Andrew
 
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