Trick Shots on ESPN - lame

[tonmo]

Just throwing this out there: a full day of Trick Shots on ESPN - that is really a shame. I wonder what % of ESPN pool programming is dedicated to actual pool matches, vs. trick shots and speed pool?

Doesn't help the industry, IMO. I'm sure there are many folks out there who really like trick shots, but where are the actual pool matches?

Whenever there is a series of pool matches on, it's usually women's 9-ball. I enjoy watching them play, but there's so much more that could be offered... Why no 8-ball, 10-ball? Or even 14.1, one pocket? I believe in the 90's you'd see some straight pool every so often.

This is why streaming events are so interesting to folks in this forum... Odd that it doesn't translate to the folks who manage programming for ESPN. If you're going to show pool, show some of the games that are actually played in bars and pool halls and basements around the country.

So that's my rant, not a new one on this topic I'm sure... Ah well, it's a decent day outside anyhow... No need for TV!

 

[TheBook]

I just seen pool scheduled and just ignored it when I seen it was trick shots. Trick shots just don't do it for me.

 

[Blackjack]

Here's a thought - MMA did not need ESPN to catapult them to the status they enjoy today.

Pool doesn't either.

The money ESPN needs to produce the shows (upwards of $50K) is money that could be added to the prize fund.

Why spend that money on something nobody watches anyway? They hide pool in time slots such as 10Am or 3AM for a reason: They don't care about pool.

Screw ESPN.

We have the people and the great minds that we need to get pool where it needs to go, without ESPN trying to pass us off as a sideshow.

 

[Mike in MN]

Just throwing this out there: a full day of Trick Shots on ESPN - that is really a shame. I wonder what % of ESPN pool programming is dedicated to actual pool matches, vs. trick shots and speed pool?

Doesn't help the industry, IMO. I'm sure there are many folks out there who really like trick shots, but where are the actual pool matches?

Whenever there is a series of pool matches on, it's usually women's 9-ball. I enjoy watching them play, but there's so much more that could be offered... Why no 8-ball, 10-ball? Or even 14.1, one pocket? I believe in the 90's you'd see some straight pool every so often.

This is why streaming events are so interesting to folks in this forum... Odd that it doesn't translate to the folks who manage programming for ESPN. If you're going to show pool, show some of the games that are actually played in bars and pool halls and basements around the country.

So that's my rant, not a new one on this topic I'm sure... Ah well, it's a decent day outside anyhow... No need for TV!

I couldn't agree more. I basically gave up on ESPN's pool coverage for just this reason. I was sick of it always being trick shot. I mean seriously, they're kinda neat to see, but if you've seen them once you may as well have seen them a hundred times. It's especially awful when they air one of those trick shot matches in which no one can successfully execute any of their shots, so the final score ends up being something like 3 to 1. :boring:

 

[CreeDo]

The way I understand it (and this is just vague memory of stuff I may have read over the years) ....women get on there because they played nice with ESPN while men couldn't come to an agreement about the money or had some other stipulations. So ESPN said screw you guys. I get the impression that men playing 8/9b COULD be on espn if they just pull their head out of their asses. It isn't necessarily that ESPN thinks nobody would watch.

 

[ctyhntr]

I agree with BlackJack. The executives of ESPN are in the business of making money, broadcasting sports is their niche. They wouldn't care if they broadcast pool or darts, as long as it brings in advertisers dollars.

The online video-streamers have found an alternative to ESPN in the form of ustream.tv, we simply need to move to a visible channel, such as Netflix or iTunes so anyone who is not internet savvy can find us and watch. Accu-stats library would be a perfect fit for iTunes.

 

[maldito]

I would not call them lame - I don't care to watch an hour of them but some people do - and they are part of the game as they have been around longer than you or me.

What I really don't care for is a pocket cam.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I don't care for the trick shot stuff either but it doesn't upset me that they put it on. Kids dig that stuff so maybe it attracts some young participants.

As far as the women being on ESPN and not the men, I thought that had more to do with the fact the ladies have a tour ( such as it is) and the men do not. There really is no man's tour for ESPN to negotiate with, just a bunch of separate events put on by various individual promoters.

As far as the women on TV goers, hasn't it been discussed around here that they basically gave ESPN the TV rights for nothing in exchange for the exposure and perhaps the right to sell a certain number of ad slots? That's an attractive deal for ESPN, the get free programming to help fill the odd hours when they broadcast pool. I can see where a tour gets some benefit from this kind of exposure whereas an individual event like say, the U.S. Open 9 Ball Championship, really wouldn't gain that much from giving TV away for free. And I'm sure it cost the promoter some cash just in terms of the expense of the logistics of TV, removing seats for the cameras, yada-yada.

ESPN also does on occasion run some of those "Legends of Pool" matches. Problem is they were a funky format (including 7 Ball) that was really quasi-exhibition of great players well past their prime. What I would really like to see would be for ESPN Classics to dig into the ABC Wide World of Sports archives and broadcast some of the old footage of the World Championships with the same guys in real competition when they were playing their best. Heck, they already own the footage so this is also free programming.

 

[pocketspeed]

Just throwing this out there: a full day of Trick Shots on ESPN - that is really a shame. I wonder what % of ESPN pool programming is dedicated to actual pool matches, vs. trick shots and speed pool?

Doesn't help the industry, IMO. I'm sure there are many folks out there who really like trick shots, but where are the actual pool matches?

Whenever there is a series of pool matches on, it's usually women's 9-ball. I enjoy watching them play, but there's so much more that could be offered... Why no 8-ball, 10-ball? Or even 14.1, one pocket? I believe in the 90's you'd see some straight pool every so often.

This is why streaming events are so interesting to folks in this forum... Odd that it doesn't translate to the folks who manage programming for ESPN. If you're going to show pool, show some of the games that are actually played in bars and pool halls and basements around the country.

So that's my rant, not a new one on this topic I'm sure... Ah well, it's a decent day outside anyhow... No need for TV!

i know trick shots arent everyones cup of tea and pool purists (snobs?) dont seem to care for them too much, but i (and a lot of other pple) do like them. i was there in CT to watch live as were a wolf den full of satisfied fans. those players (entertainers) put on a great show and showed of some fine skills.

all the events you see on ESPN are there b/c 1) the promoter paid ESPN to produce it for TV, and 2) ESPN thought they would be able to make some money selling the advertising. so enough pple do enjoy watching that form of pool on TV. truthfully the USA v EUROPE team approach where everything is explained in detail before a shot is made was very compelling and the live crowd was into the matches.

have you looked at the stream numbers? i am sure that no one at ESPN is impressed that 347 pple are watching a live stream event.

if trick shot competition isnt your thing fine, but dont think its bad for the sport b/c its not.

brian

 

[oldzilla]

Here's a thought - MMA did not need ESPN to catapult them to the status they enjoy today.

Pool doesn't either.

The money ESPN needs to produce the shows (upwards of $50K) is money that could be added to the prize fund.

Why spend that money on something nobody watches anyway? They hide pool in time slots such as 10Am or 3AM for a reason: They don't care about pool.

Screw ESPN.

We have the people and the great minds that we need to get pool where it needs to go, without ESPN trying to pass us off as a sideshow.

I agree 100% !
Slice of a chunk of that 50k for a streamer and we got live pool. ESPN has NEVER DONE POOL LIVE.

and tricks shots imo are for exhibition ! not a good competition format. setting up, expaining, attempts, blah.

 

[oldzilla]

Cue sports should have a 24/7 channel of it's own.

Look at all the lame things that have a dedicated channel.

As they say on ESPN "come on man" !

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Here's a thought - MMA did not need ESPN to catapult them to the status they enjoy today.

Pool doesn't either.

The money ESPN needs to produce the shows (upwards of $50K) is money that could be added to the prize fund.

Why spend that money on something nobody watches anyway? They hide pool in time slots such as 10Am or 3AM for a reason: They don't care about pool.

Screw ESPN.

We have the people and the great minds that we need to get pool where it needs to go, without ESPN trying to pass us off as a sideshow.

I agree 100% !
Slice of a chunk of that 50k for a streamer and we got live pool. ESPN has NEVER DONE POOL LIVE.

and tricks shots imo are for exhibition ! not a good competition format. setting up, expaining, attempts, blah.

I'm not sure I get this. How does money ESPN doesn't spend on the costs of televising a pool tournament become available to add to the prize fund?

 

[Blackjack]

I agree 100% !
Slice of a chunk of that 50k for a streamer and we got live pool. ESPN has NEVER DONE POOL LIVE.

and tricks shots imo are for exhibition ! not a good competition format. setting up, expaining, attempts, blah.

They have done pool live. It was the Semi-Finals and Finals of the Ultimate 9 Ball Challenge tournament from ESPN Sports Zone at Walt Disney World in Orlando, Florida in 1998.

Allison, Gerda and Dawn Hopkins were on - I believe that Allison won.

Roger Griffis defeated CJ Wiley, then lost to Johnny Archer.

Allen Hopkins was doing commentary.

So they have done the live pool, and it was on from noon-3PM.

12 years have passed since then. Let's not hold our breath waiting for them to call back.

IMO, they should be calling us, not the other way around.

 

[Blackjack]

I'm not sure I get this. How does money ESPN doesn't spend on the costs of televising a pool tournament become available to add to the prize fund?

It's not Espn's money that solely produces the broadcasts. Over the past 10 years, if you have seen mens pool on TV, it is usually because Charlie Williams and Dragon Promotions have paid for the production, not because ESPN.

Edited to add: Hopefully Charlie can chime in and fully explain the details of the $$$ issue.

 

[tonmo]

have you looked at the stream numbers? i am sure that no one at ESPN is impressed that 347 pple are watching a live stream event.

if trick shot competition isnt your thing fine, but dont think its bad for the sport b/c its not.

brian

I think you're comparing apples and oranges. Those are 347 passionate pool fans enacting "where there's a will there's a way". TV viewership is entirely different... it would be interesting to see the viewership for today's trick shot programming... But flipping the channels on the boob tube is a well-established past-time in American homes (decades in the making). When you consider a lot of the crap on TV, it's not surprising that trick shots is among the mix.

I do understand that some people actually enjoy trick shot programming (acknowledged in my first post), but I guess my basic point (not stated well) is that I would think the pool industry would want to put a different "face" on pool. Trick shots are more of a showy, "bow tie and vest" type of performance (which I think less people today identify with), while competitive pool play (playing the "games" themselves) offer the real "meat" of the sport, and is more engrossing. Pool games are played by every-day people like you and me. Trick shot "artists" are almost presented as magicians -- "wow, how'd he ever do that? I could never do that.... wouldn't know where to begin..." And they ham it up with stories, performance. Straight-up pool is more "honest", genuine, and authentic. Even if you're not as good as a pro, you can readily identify with their sincere efforts to win... as in baseball, football, etc. IMO = in my opinion :grin:...

Perhaps still not stated well but it's my best shot for the moment... back outside we go!

 

[Blackball75]

The Fox Sports channels regularly show pool - women's matches, pool classics, men's Mosconi Cup etc.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

It's not Espn's money that solely produces the broadcasts. Over the past 10 years, if you have seen mens pool on TV, it is usually because Charlie Williams and Dragon Promotions have paid for the production, not because ESPN.

Edited to add: Hopefully Charlie can chime in and fully explain the details of the $$$ issue.

I understand the promoter giving away the TV rights for nothing or next to it if it doesn't cost him anything and his event gets some exposure this way. But to pay ESPN in the area of $50K? I just don't see where the promoter gets THAT much out of the arrangement, unless he at least gets the ad time to sell. I'm not arguing the point, I'm just asking because I really don't know - I think we are all speculating how the money flows in these deals.

For a tour I would understand it a little better, since having your event on TV maybe generates interest in next week's event and increases the gate that way. But stand alone events run by promoters don't get that pop for next week's tournament.

Tell you one thing, if I was a promoter of a tournament and was paying $50K to ESPN (which I'm not yet convinced actually happens), I agree with you guys. It seems to me from a business perspective I would generate a LOT more interest in my event if that $50K was added to the prize pool, then having it taped and played at some odd hour 3 months after the event is over. Strictly from a business perspective I think that maybe the money is better spent in the prize pool. But again, I don't know the real scoop on the financial arrangements.

I too would be interested in the finances of these TV deals but I highly doubt Charlie or anyone from the WPBA is going to come on here and enlighten us.

 

[pocketspeed]

I understand the promoter giving away the TV rights for nothing or next to it if it doesn't cost him anything and his event gets some exposure this way. But to pay ESPN in the area of $50K? I just don't see where the promoter gets THAT much out of the arrangement, unless he at least gets the add slots to sell.

For a tour I would understand it a little better, since having your event on TV maybe generates interest in next week's event and increases the gate that way. But stand alone events run by promoters don't get that pop for next week's tournament.

I too would be interested in the finances of these arrangements but I highly doubt Charlie or anyone from the WPBA is going to come on here and enlighten us.

the promoter pays for the ESPN to produce the event. in turn ESPN gives the promoter some of the commercial spots which the promoter can give to sponsors in turn for sponsorship $$$ or just sell out right to industry advertising. on ESPN have you ever seen an ad spot for muellers, cuetec or the apa that wasnt on during a pool event?

brian

 

[pocketspeed]

I think you're comparing apples and oranges. Those are 347 passionate pool fans enacting "where there's a will there's a way". TV viewership is entirely different... it would be interesting to see the viewership for today's trick shot programming... But flipping the channels on the boob tube is a well-established past-time in American homes (decades in the making). When you consider a lot of the crap on TV, it's not surprising that trick shots is among the mix.

I do understand that some people actually enjoy trick shot programming (acknowledged in my first post), but I guess my basic point (not stated well) is that I would think the pool industry would want to put a different "face" on pool. Trick shots are more of a showy, "bow tie and vest" type of performance (which I think less people today identify with), while competitive pool play (playing the "games" themselves) offer the real "meat" of the sport, and is more engrossing. Pool games are played by every-day people like you and me. Trick shot "artists" are almost presented as magicians -- "wow, how'd he ever do that? I could never do that.... wouldn't know where to begin..." And they ham it up with stories, performance. Straight-up pool is more "honest", genuine, and authentic. Even if you're not as good as a pro, you can readily identify with their sincere efforts to win... as in baseball, football, etc. IMO = in my opinion :grin:...

Perhaps still not stated well but it's my best shot for the moment... back outside we go!

i get what youre saying, but in the end all sports are really entertainment. we watch to be entertained which is why the best athletes on the best teams get the most money-b/c they entertain us the best. as far as entertainment goes, to folks who are not rabid pool fans trick shots and certain trick shot artists-think tom rossman here- do make better entertainment. take the world cup of trick shots-its really got everything. a team to root for. maybe a little patriotism mixed in. one year some folks were there painted red white and blue, last year there were some rowdy euro types there-pool hooligans if you will. everything is explained. you know what is supposed to happen, and frankly even for pple knowledgable enough to know how a shot is down some of those shots are just freaking amazing. maybe not for die hard pool players, but for the general public the world cup of tricks shots has far more entertainment value than any other match you can televise. exposure of any sort has to be good for the sport overall.

brian

 

[catscradle]

Trick shot competitions are just plain DUMB and speed pool isn't much better. However, evidently the general tv viewing audience disagrees. Pool is basically a boring entertainment unless you're a person who plays it regularly and more importantly understands the right way to play.