Trudeau: Beating a dead horse.

JoeyA

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
This thread isn't going to increase my fan base and I know it but some things have to be said. First and foremost you can be assured that I am not very liberal and believe that if you do the crime, you should do the time.

However, I really don't understand the glee and euphoria that is being expressed on this forum for people in our sport who have met up with the law like Kevin Trudeau, Tony Chohan and others. It doesn't make any sense to me for this forum to be a grandstand to make laughter about their punishment and imprisonment.

I don't condone Kevin's misdeeds or the problems that he caused for some of the pool players with the IPT (or any of the other criminals in our sport).

The fact remains that Kevin put a PHENOMENAL amount of money in the pockets of pool players the world over. He attempted to put pocket billiards on the map in a very big way. He gave hope to the players where there was none. He gave pride to our sport, temporary as it was and for all of his efforts, we have people cavorting around in jubilation at the news of his imprisonment.

Kevin didn't put a penny in my pocket (nor have I ever spoken a word to him) but he did put a lot of money in many pool players' pockets and this is what he gets in return.

The way this forum is used to celebrate the punishment and imprisonment of people in our sport is nothing more than demagoguery and the continued bashing of people in our sport is sad to see.

I know my opinion may go against some of my friends and some of the more vocal members of the forum but can someone tell me what benefit this POOL forum OR the pool world derives from this type of celebratory demagoguery?
JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
This thread isn't going to increase my fan base and I know it but some things have to be said. First and foremost you can be assured that I am not very liberal and believe that if you do the crime, you should do the time.

However, I really don't understand the glee and euphoria that is being expressed on this forum for people in our sport who have met up with the law like Kevin Trudeau, Tony Chohan and others. It doesn't make any sense to me for this forum to be a grandstand to make laughter about their punishment and imprisonment.

I don't condone Kevin's misdeeds or the problems that he caused for some of the pool players with the IPT (or any of the other criminals in our sport).

The fact remains that Kevin put a PHENOMENAL amount of money in the pockets of pool players the world over. He attempted to put pocket billiards on the map in a very big way. He gave hope to the players where there was none. He gave pride to our sport, temporary as it was and for all of his efforts, we have people cavorting around in jubilation at the news of his imprisonment.

Kevin didn't put a penny in my pocket (nor have I ever spoken a word to him) but he did put a lot of money in many pool players' pockets and this is what he gets in return.

The way this forum is used to celebrate the punishment and imprisonment of people in our sport is nothing more than demagoguery and the continued bashing of people in our sport is sad to see.

I know my opinion may go against some of my friends and some of the more vocal members of the forum but can someone tell me what benefit this POOL forum OR the pool world derives from this type of celebratory demagoguery?
JoeyA
Click to expand...

My business got stuck about $25g's. That's why it's not beating a dead horse. Specifically, I hope he gets horse-fck'd. ;)

I'm smilin' big today :)
 
i gotta go to work , but i think this thread will be easily found for days to come !:eek:
 
Couldn't have said it better myself Joe. Personally I think the format for the IPT was the best I've ever seen for pool, hands down, nothing even comes close. Only thing I'd change would be making it 10 ball, but everybody knows 8 ball :)

Bottom line: Yeah the guy is a crook, but what he tried pulling off for pool was the best possible format with the most possible pay for players we might ever see. I don't care if it's Obama or George W. running the show, that format needs to be done again and made the standard for pro pool.
 
JoeyA said:
The fact remains that Kevin put a PHENOMENAL amount of money in the pockets of pool players the world over.
Click to expand...

That's fine and dandy, but what about all the people that shelled out money to play in the qualifiers, only to get ripped off?

Are they all but forgotten?

So sick of people cherry picking what they want to glorify, and simply ignoring the cold truth that is ugly.

I know guys that to this day, never recovered the money they shelled out to play in qualifiers, and we are talking about several thousands of dollars.

How many people got ripped off by the qualification system that went absolutely no where when the tour fell apart? Hhhhmmmmm?

Why don't you gather them all up and tell THEM about the good KT tried to do for the pool community.

Some people just don't get it.
 
I hear what your saying Joey and you have a good point, but at best KT was a mixed bag. He certainly did try to do something new for pool and put a lot of money in many players pockets, but it's a reasonable debate on whether his long term overall impact on pool was a good one or a bad one.

As Spidey mentioned, some here paid a higher price for having faith than others.

Besides, KT once again, got out of serving time.
 
Nevermind that he deceives the sick and elderly, charges them multiple times for the same product, pays just enough prize money to avoid legal action, and generally defrauds the unsuspecting whenever and wherever possible to make the almighty dollar. Oh and he does all this while hiding behind a corporation's face and name to almost completely eliminate all personal legal/financial responsibility.

Yeah he's GREAT for pool. Real stand-up model citizen.

Maybe you missed all the posts back in 2006/2007 about how he got out of any/every full prize payment. He's an all-around bad person with the worst of intentions. Anybody that believes otherwise is deceiving themselves.
 
SUPERSTAR said:
That's fine and dandy, but what about all the people that shelled out money to play in the qualifiers, only to get ripped off?

Are they all but forgotten?

So sick of people cherry picking what they want to glorify, and simply ignoring the cold truth that is ugly.

I know guys that to this day, never recovered the money they shelled out to play in qualifiers, and we are talking about several thousands of dollars.

How many people got ripped off by the qualification system that went absolutely no where when the tour fell apart? Hhhhmmmmm?

Why don't you gather them all up and tell THEM about the good KT tried to do for the pool community.

Some people just don't get it.
Click to expand...

I was one of the many who qualified too late just to see it collapse. And yes, it was an expensive entry fee. I have nothing but bad to say about Kevin Trudeau and the IPT.
If I were selected at the beginning to play, I wouldn't be complaining about free money. It still wouldn't change the fact that Trudeau is a scumbag who should be in prison. Instead, he still has his infomercials selling false products to idiotic people. I don't know how he can keep a straight face, seriously. What a POS. Almost as bad as Don King (who should also be in jail).
As far as Chohan, he made a mistake. Nuff said. No reason to bash the guy. He's doing his time like a man.
 
In order to be good for pool - you have to be good 360 degrees.

To hold a pool tournament, you need a venue, staff, services, vendors, and pool players.

If you pay the pool players (late, even) and stiff the venue, staff, and vendors--- it's not good for pool, it murders pool.

After the Reno event, the other partners in my business told me in no uncertain terms--- "Dave, don't EVER, EVER bring us another pool opportunity again. That's the last thing we're ever doing in pool, ever."

That's pretty much an exact quote. I'm SURE the other companies involved got stiffed just like me. I won't name names because it's none of my business to post them, but companies IN the pool industry didn't get paid. How is that good for pool?

We won't know the DAMAGE the IPT did to pool for years to come. Companies will never stick their noses in it again thinking they'll get chopped off.

Very sad, imo.
Dave
 
So, yeah....I will beat Trudeau like a dead horse every time I hear his name. :deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:
 
JoeyA said:
... I really don't understand the glee and euphoria that is being expressed on this forum for people in our sport who have met up with the law like Kevin Trudeau, Tony Chohan and others. It doesn't make any sense to me for this forum to be a grandstand to make laughter about their punishment and imprisonment.

The way this forum is used to celebrate the punishment and imprisonment of people in our sport is nothing more than demagoguery and the continued bashing of people in our sport is sad to see.
Click to expand...

Let's start with this, Joey. You are voicing your opinion on an important matter, and yours is an informed opinion. The AZB forum has long valued your opinon on all matters pertaining to our sport, and those who would dismiss you just because you offer a controversial opinion on a sensitive subject are to be pitied for their short-sightedness. OK, on to the subject matter to be considered.

While I agree with your premise that we shouldn't rejoice in the hardships that lawbreakers in our midst must endure as a direct result of their illegal actions, I think the motives for such jubilation are not completely without merit.

I think one of the most fundamental premises underlying the criminal justice system is that when the law assesses penalties against those who have, through unconscionable actions, violated society by illegally manipuating, or otherwise abusing, some of its constituents, three things are achieved:

1) society is protected, for the length of the perpetrator's incarceration, from similar abuse
2) the person incarcerated, by learning the cost of illegal acton the hard way, becomes less likely to repeat such activity once released from prison
3) onlookers of the legal process will be deterred from the commission of simliar indiscretions

I believe that those on AZB who converse about the Chohan and Trudeau incidents, even those who do so without a proper sense of respect and decency, are serving a purpose that is, in at least some ways, constructive.

One of the saddest realities of pool's action scene is the "far greater than would seem customary" presence of those who operate on the wrong side of the law. In my life, I recall more than a few action players who, sometimes knowingly and sometimes naively, let such people into their midst, and more than a few of them have paid for it and then some. That's why I hope that any up-and-comer who is taking this path will take note of Chohan's unfortunate choices and the consequences of those choices. Sad to say that the "making money at all costs no matter what the risk" motive that likely guided Chohan was at the heart of the IPT's formation. Our sport, and that means its players and all in-industry proprietors, similarly needs to learn a lesson about the danger of entering business arrangements with many-time felons who have been incarcerated for repeated perpetration of fraudulent business practices.

The, often tactlessly expressed, joy on this forum when it is learned that people like Chohan and Trudeau will pay a price for their indiscretions needs to be understood, at least in part, as hopeful that their incarceration will, ultimately, benefit our sport by deterring the kind of behavior that led to it.

On this level, I'm inclined to give everybody a free pass here, while asking them to take note of your well-reasoned call for greater civility in the way they react to stories like these. I agree that both Trudeau and Chohan, though symbols of how we don't want our family and friends to conduct themselves, are still people who, because they also tried to be positive forces in our sport, we wish well in their roads back.
 
Ya gotta beat the dead horse before you can eat the meat! Makes it good'n tender :eek:!!!

Maniac
 
same ol' same ol'

Joey,

You are talking about human nature in this thread and it is always the same with people that stand out from the crowd, be they good people or terrible. Many in the crowd will glory in their success and kiss their ass and then be among the first to kick them when they are down.

If we tally up the tangibles and intangibles I think kevin did some good for a few individuals in pool and vastly harmed the sport. That makes me the seventh son of a seventh son because that is what I said could happen from before he ever held an event.

The truth is that as long as pool looks around for a sugar daddy instead of a real business model it is doomed to be unsuccessful as a sport. We can blame easy targets but in the end the blame falls on every player trying to make a living at pool that won't organize and behave like professionals. No bunch was more ragtag or infested with illegal activities than stock car drivers when they united behind one man. They didn't explode overnight, they built to where they are now. We need to start building looking years into the future. Hard to look years into the future when you are looking at last month's unpaid bills though.

Although I haven't posted anything prior to this, I will be glad of every misfortune that befalls a man that has deliberately rained further misfortune down on people that were already suffering. trudeau is responsible for no telling how many deaths and vast suffering because people decided to try his quack crap instead of traditional medical advice. Why did he do this? Purely to make a buck! Damn him and damn anyone that fits that mold!

As for what he did for/to pool, there were some legitimate victims but most were willing coconspirators willing to take the gamble. They gambled, they lost. No real reason to hold it against kt when they knew that they were building on thin air. Although kt grasped at the gambling deal at the last minute to rescue the IPT I believe it is bs to think that was the plan all along. He was looking for the same success poker has and making it big on network TV in my opinion. That didn't happen and he was looking for a way out, preferably making a profit along the way. trudeau never did a thing that was intended to be for the good of pool, it was all intended to be for the good of trudeau. If that helped pool, if it harmed pool, he didn't care either way. I don't owe him a thing, neither does anyone else in pool. He tried to use pool as a vehicle to boost his wealth, he wasn't a great philanthropist.

Hu



JoeyA said:
This thread isn't going to increase my fan base and I know it but some things have to be said. First and foremost you can be assured that I am not very liberal and believe that if you do the crime, you should do the time.

However, I really don't understand the glee and euphoria that is being expressed on this forum for people in our sport who have met up with the law like Kevin Trudeau, Tony Chohan and others. It doesn't make any sense to me for this forum to be a grandstand to make laughter about their punishment and imprisonment.

I don't condone Kevin's misdeeds or the problems that he caused for some of the pool players with the IPT (or any of the other criminals in our sport).

The fact remains that Kevin put a PHENOMENAL amount of money in the pockets of pool players the world over. He attempted to put pocket billiards on the map in a very big way. He gave hope to the players where there was none. He gave pride to our sport, temporary as it was and for all of his efforts, we have people cavorting around in jubilation at the news of his imprisonment.

Kevin didn't put a penny in my pocket (nor have I ever spoken a word to him) but he did put a lot of money in many pool players' pockets and this is what he gets in return.

The way this forum is used to celebrate the punishment and imprisonment of people in our sport is nothing more than demagoguery and the continued bashing of people in our sport is sad to see.

I know my opinion may go against some of my friends and some of the more vocal members of the forum but can someone tell me what benefit this POOL forum OR the pool world derives from this type of celebratory demagoguery?
JoeyA
Click to expand...
 
JoeyA said:
The fact remains that Kevin put a PHENOMENAL amount of money in the pockets of pool players the world over. [/B]
JoeyA
Click to expand...

Bernie Madoff was very generous to many charities. I guess you will be sending him a Get Out of Jail Free card.

Don't expect others to cheer your values.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
My business got stuck about $25g's. That's why it's not beating a dead horse. Specifically, I hope he gets horse-fck'd. ;)

I'm smilin' big today :)
Click to expand...

I don't know what that is but it sounds bad. Truth is, guys like Trudeau don't usually have problems behind bars because the other cons just want to get close to him so they can get some ideas on how to run their own con.

I don't care one way or the other about K T but I don't understand how generating an e-mail campaign to a judge can get you locked up for 30 days. Sounds like the judge just pulled a law out of thin air on that one.
 
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ShootingArts said:
Joey,

You are talking about human nature in this thread and it is always the same with people that stand out from the crowd, be they good people or terrible. Many in the crowd will glory in their success and kiss their ass and then be among the first to kick them when they are down.

If we tally up the tangibles and intangibles I think kevin did some good for a few individuals in pool and vastly harmed the sport. That makes me the seventh son of a seventh son because that is what I said could happen from before he ever held an event.

The truth is that as long as pool looks around for a sugar daddy instead of a real business model it is doomed to be unsuccessful as a sport. We can blame easy targets but in the end the blame falls on every player trying to make a living at pool that won't organize and behave like professionals. No bunch was more ragtag or infested with illegal activities than stock car drivers when they united behind one man. They didn't explode overnight, they built to where they are now. We need to start building looking years into the future. Hard to look years into the future when you are looking at last month's unpaid bills though.

Although I haven't posted anything prior to this, I will be glad of every misfortune that befalls a man that has deliberately rained further misfortune down on people that were already suffering. trudeau is responsible for no telling how many deaths and vast suffering because people decided to try his quack crap instead of traditional medical advice. Why did he do this? Purely to make a buck! Damn him and damn anyone that fits that mold!

As for what he did for/to pool, there were some legitimate victims but most were willing coconspirators willing to take the gamble. They gambled, they lost. No real reason to hold it against kt when they knew that they were building on thin air. Although kt grasped at the gambling deal at the last minute to rescue the IPT I believe it is bs to think that was the plan all along. He was looking for the same success poker has and making it big on network TV in my opinion. That didn't happen and he was looking for a way out, preferably making a profit along the way. trudeau never did a thing that was intended to be for the good of pool, it was all intended to be for the good of trudeau. If that helped pool, if it harmed pool, he didn't care either way. I don't owe him a thing, neither does anyone else in pool. He tried to use pool as a vehicle to boost his wealth, he wasn't a great philanthropist.

Hu
Click to expand...

Bravo Hu! KT was taking a shot with pool to make a big score. When it didn't work out, he bailed, leaving everyone else holding the bag. I seriously doubt he would have paid anybody anything, except that he realized he might be looking at criminal charges if he didn't start paying up. He did it only to cool things out with the pool players, not out of any good intentions. Even so he dragged it on and on forever!

This is a man who loves to take money, but hates having to pay for anything. I suspect his own employees would make similar comments. I have always been curious if the 150K he held out from Efren ever reached the IRS. If not, he could be facing some pretty stiff charges.

To glorify him now in any way, is a huge mistake IMO.
 
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sjm said:
Our sport, and that means its players and all in-industry proprietors, similarly needs to learn a lesson about the danger of entering business arrangements with many-time felons who have been incarcerated for repeated perpetration of fraudulent business practices.
Click to expand...
Thank you! The pool world needs to take responsibility for putting so much faith in a guy who was well known for regularly having legal troubles, including incarceration, going back at least fifteen years before he approached pool. When he approached, he was also peddling a book of alternative medical cures widely regarded to be a scam. How could anybody have expected Trudeau's involvement to work out? Let's not embarrass ourselves by citing the virtue of forgiveness and second chances. The whole thing is embarrassing enough as it is. The pool world needs to look at itself first.
 
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