Trying to go Pro.

I second Johnny on this one. Scott is giving you the straight scoop here. IMO 20 hours a week is not enough table time to really improve to a high level. My opinion is that it takes nothing short of OBSESSION to be a top level player. Every one of those players who you admire, has put in thousands of hours for years to reach that level. There are no shortcuts! Good lessons/coaching, good observation (of top players), reading the best books and watching the best DVD's can help shorten the learning curve. That's about all.


i'll 3rd this, 20 hours a week will just keep you at the same level, you need 40-50 hours a week to really improve unless your a one in ten million talent, then you can get away with 20 hours/week. Jay used the right word OBSESSION. Alex Pag told me his story of when he decided to be the best player in the world, he said "F it to everything else in life, when I did that then and only then did I become the player I want to be" you have to be all in or not in at all, period. and have natural talent. best of luck to you i hope you can do it, it would be great to see happen, i love to see people play great and come up,
 
I'm not saying my talent is unique, I haven't played enough to determine how good I can really be. I'll have a better Idea a couple of years down the road. The way I figure it, I went from a nothing player to a B player in less than 2 years on only 20 hours a week, and sometimes less, so who knows how much better I can be a few years down the road. I have to keep at it in order to find out. I know the odds are stacked up against me but i've never paid too much attention to that. As for the way Pagulyan made it to the top....what's not to say he could've been this good with less time and more "Quality" sessions? we'll never know. Until then I have to keep grinding.... Pool is extemely addictive and Players take it over the top as far as all the time they spend at the pool hall. Sometimes you have to take a break in order to see what's going on and continue to make progress. Thanks for the advice.
 
jaybanthony...First, get a good education. Second, get a good job, so you can AFFORD to play in pro events (and have something to fall back on). Third (maybe first), enter some higher level regional events, to see how you stack up against other good players. The playing field is littered with people "wanting to be a pro". Very few make it to the elite level...and fewer even of those actually make a decent living at it. Remember anybody can pony up the entry fee, play in a pro event, and call themselves a pro player. Best of luck in your endeavor.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

OUCH as they say the TRUTH HURTS.


"Remember anybody can pony up the entry fee, play in a pro event, and call themselves a pro player."

GREAT observation above!
 
I'm not saying my talent is unique, I haven't played enough to determine how good I can really be. I'll have a better Idea a couple of years down the road. The way I figure it, I went from a nothing player to a B player in less than 2 years on only 20 hours a week, and sometimes less, so who knows how much better I can be a few years down the road. I have to keep at it in order to find out. I know the odds are stacked up against me but i've never paid too much attention to that. As for the way Pagulyan made it to the top....what's not to say he could've been this good with less time and more "Quality" sessions? we'll never know. Until then I have to keep grinding.... Pool is extemely addictive and Players take it over the top as far as all the time they spend at the pool hall. Sometimes you have to take a break in order to see what's going on and continue to make progress. Thanks for the advice.


It gets exponentially more difficult to get better the higher your skill level gets. The difference between a low A player and a strong A player is like the difference between a C player and a low A player. The difference between a strong A player and a top pro is like the difference between a D player and a strong A player.

Sorry to be negative, but for someone starting in his 30s, 20 hours a week ,no matter how you spend it, wont get you to touring pro status.
 
You've been out of work for over a year, yet, you are playing 20 hrs of pool a week?
How is that a responsible plan for taking care of your family?
I just don't get it.
Spend the time getting an education in a field with a future.
Your family will thank you.
 
Bamadog - Yes I've been unemployed for more than a year that is to say in my respective field (profession)....which I have, but a profession unfortunately doesn't guarantee a full time job these days. I still find ways to make decent money, enough to sustain my needs at the moment. Also, since I've been fully employed since I was 17, I was able to make significant savings. You have to know the full details of each individuals story before making that type of a comment. I'm 31 not 15....My priorities are in order, If you've lived long enough you know that certain things in life are beyond your control. If everything was easy we'd all be rich. Excuse me for having dreams. Walk in my shoes and then come back and comment. And no you don't get it, how could you?
 
Sounds to me like you want to be the best player you can be, with "pro" as the target. There's a big difference between that and making your living from playing pool.

You seem to have a great passion for the game, and being the best you can be is a worthy goal. If you have the dedication and the talent, you could reasonably make it to shortstop status, or higher. But if you expect to be the next Mika, you're probably going to be disappointed. I think that's all most people here are trying to say.
 
The learning curve is a parabolic curve...

I'm not saying my talent is unique, I haven't played enough to determine how good I can really be. I'll have a better Idea a couple of years down the road. The way I figure it, I went from a nothing player to a B player in less than 2 years on only 20 hours a week, and sometimes less, so who knows how much better I can be a few years down the road. I have to keep at it in order to find out. I know the odds are stacked up against me but i've never paid too much attention to that. As for the way Pagulyan made it to the top....what's not to say he could've been this good with less time and more "Quality" sessions? we'll never know. Until then I have to keep grinding.... Pool is extemely addictive and Players take it over the top as far as all the time they spend at the pool hall. Sometimes you have to take a break in order to see what's going on and continue to make progress. Thanks for the advice.

The learning curve in pool is a parabolic curve. This is to say that the better you get, the harder it is to get just a little bit better.

Its easy to go from averaging 2-3 balls per inning to 7-8 practicing an hour or a few days a week (with the right training and coaching)... It is increasingly difficult to get to averaging 12-13 from even 9-10...

Then you hit your plateau, whatever that may be. At that point the only way to get better is to fully dedicate yourself to it, barring absolutely everything else.

Plateaus will be different for everyone and overcoming them (if at all possible) will also be different.

Yesterday I spent 12 hours playing pool, I didn't eat, I barely remembered to drink. I played a tourney and then got in a match with a regional open level player, playing cheap sets. After 25-30 races to 5, I ended up two sets loser.

For me, that was a big deal because of the mental handicaps I've had when gambling. I'm just starting to be able to overcome those mental handicaps. My skill level is there, but I may never reach top player status because I don't know if I'll be able to completely overcome my mental demons. That's just the nature of the beast.

I'm willing to accept that. The biggest question you have to ask yourself is ARE YOU???

Even if you become able to dedicate yourself to this sport, you become independently wealthy, you don't have health concerns that prevent you from excelling (bad backs are synonymous with long term pool players), you still may not EVER reach short stop status. You DON'T wanna waste your time if you're not willing to accept that, atleast without having a fall back position.

You are right about pool being addictive, for those of us who the bug has bit it is the MOST addictive thing in the world. Now that you've been bit, you probably won't ever give up pool entirely, but don't think that you'll be able to fore go everything else for pool.

You also said you have a family. I do too. I have a wife of seven years and a five year old daughter, they always come first, but my wife knew that I woudl never give up pool when we first started dating. That doesn't mean I can bet the rent money or be gone every weekend though.

When i had first dedicated my life to pool, I was hawking newspapers for 200 a month and had rent that cost, you guessed it, 200 dollars a month.

I would scrape up five dollars to ride my bike (didn't have a car) to the pool hall and use the daily special of five dollars from 10 am to 6 pm.

I had bought a mcdermott EI-5 for 255 dollars from winnings at black jack in loughlin, nevada.

I ended up becoming friends with the pool hall owner and eventually working at the pool hall. I would get up at 3 oclock to ride with my roommate to go hawk newspapers on the corner in san Bernardino to pay the rent, I would throw parties and charge covers for the high schoolers for extra cash at nights on the weekend ( and sometimes during the week) and then I would sleep in the car and go home and sleep for a few hours before I went down to open the pool hall. I would vacuum the tables and the floors and clean up, then I would play pool all day, occasionally stopping to check out balls to customers or sell sodas etc...

The owners brother would come in at 6 p.m. and take over running the shop and me and the owner would go around to the local tourneys. We also held a Sunday tourney and a tuesday tourney at the pool hall.

My girlfriend ended up leaving me in a really jacked up way that screwed with my head and messed up my game, which is why I gave it up for several years.

This is the kind of life you can expect to live when you dedicate yourself to pool.

Do I regret it? Not now, I have a good job, a wonderful family and I'm starting to get my game back on track.

However, I knew this guy, a road hustler who used to come into that poo hall that I had worked at. His name was Doug. most of the time, he lived in his car, he was in his sixties and he was lucky when he got to eat and or rent a hotel room for a few nights.

He was a real good player, but when you have to hustle to gt a game, it ain't an easy life.

He ended up dying in his car one night if what I heard was correct.

That's the glamorous life of the pool hustler and trust me, if you want to make a living at pool, you better know how to hustle as well as play well.

I never wanted that, I wanted to be able to beat anyone I played and not have to hustle. But unless you're SVB, you're not going to get the sponsorship money that you would need to NOT have a secondary source of income.

If you look at the successful pros, they usually have pool schools, or do shows, or own pool halls or night clubs or etc..etc...

If you think since you've lost your job that you're going to spend 20 hours a week as a "B" player and in a few months or a year be able to support your family WITHOUT hustling or gambling, you're deluding yourself and risking your families livelihood.

Hell the ups and downs of gambling for even the best of those out there are crazy, even if you get a good stakehorse.

When I was working at the poo hall, there was this mafia guy who liked to come around. He came in this one time with a guy who he said he was going to take on the road and stake him heading out to Vegas.

I told him that he shouldn't even consider taking this guy on the road. He asked me to play him and said that if I could beat him, he'd throw me a bill. I jumped at the chance and when I beat the guy he offered to take me instead.

I politely declined telling him that he didn't understand how rough it was out there, I didn't say it at the time, but I didn't want a guy like him to lose money on me. It's not good for your health if you know what I mean.

Fun times... Remembering those days in retrospect is fun times. You're 31, not 19. you have a family, I'm afraid it's probably too late for you. Someone who knows what they're doing could probably get you to shrotstop speed if you have a natural affinity, but it's just not likely that you'd ever get to pro level ATP... By all means, take this as a challenge, but good luck holding onto your family, finding another job etc.. i it doesn't work out.

In these economic times, good luck finding a job after being out of the market for more than a few months.

Jaden
 
Champ - I've only ran maybe a couple of racks of each so far.
High run in straight pool is 36 in a tight pocket table. I'm consistently in the 20's.

You are not all that much better than I am. I have done 2-packs in both 8 and 9-ball and have a high run of 30-something (setting up a decent break shot is my bugaboo) in 14.1. I consider myself a C+ player on a good day. I am not even a wart on a real poolplayers ass. I know where I am in the pool world, and it's nearer the bottom of the food chain. However, I will be 58 years old on my next birthday, while at 31 there is still a semblance of hope for you. I am not trying to be negative, nor do I want to bust your bubble, but you have a long, hard road ahead of you. If you work hard and keep your enthusiasm, you may have a shot of reaching your goal. But I must urge/warn you: Pool can be so addictive that I've seen men lose their families over it. Do not fall into this trap!!! I wish you well, my friend.

Maniac
 
Bamadog - Yes I've been unemployed for more than a year that is to say in my respective field (profession)....which I have, but a profession unfortunately doesn't guarantee a full time job these days. I still find ways to make decent money, enough to sustain my needs at the moment. Also, since I've been fully employed since I was 17, I was able to make significant savings. You have to know the full details of each individuals story before making that type of a comment. I'm 31 not 15....My priorities are in order, If you've lived long enough you know that certain things in life are beyond your control. If everything was easy we'd all be rich. Excuse me for having dreams. Walk in my shoes and then come back and comment. And no you don't get it, how could you?
Sorry, but if you've been out of work for over a year and you're playing 20 hrs of pool a week I don't see how you could have your priorities in order. It makes no sense to me.
There are some professions out there where you don't get laid off and you can make great money.
Your time would be far better spent getting an education in one of those fields.
Playing pool is a luxury, a diversion.
It is not a reasonable alternative to a profession, if you have a family to support.

If you were one of my nephews or brothers my family would be discussing an intervention.
 
Not a bad thread. Lots of interesting advice.

I do think your title is a bit misleading. It doesn't sound like you REALLY want pool to be your profession. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are just wanting to play "like a pro", not necessarily stake your financial future on the game.

The funny thing is - most everybody on AZ that has told themselves they can play a little, has had this same desire of yours at one point or another. I know I did. Luckily, I was honest with myself years ago and I knew I could never get as good as the world-beaters and although this was a difficult realization it also set my pool game free. Think about it, when you are trying to get as good as someone like Johnny Archer and you aren't even getting close that can be very disheartening. On the other hand, when you are playing because you love the game and you want to get as good as you can it becomes much more enjoyable.
 
Bamadog - Yes I've been unemployed for more than a year that is to say in my respective field (profession)....which I have, but a profession unfortunately doesn't guarantee a full time job these days. I still find ways to make decent money, enough to sustain my needs at the moment. Also, since I've been fully employed since I was 17, I was able to make significant savings. You have to know the full details of each individuals story before making that type of a comment. I'm 31 not 15....My priorities are in order, If you've lived long enough you know that certain things in life are beyond your control. If everything was easy we'd all be rich. Excuse me for having dreams. Walk in my shoes and then come back and comment. And no you don't get it, how could you?

Good luck in your adventure but if all you doing is 20 hours a week you just spinning your wheels...Take the next 2 years and take pool like a real job...Hit balls..."the right way " for 8 to 10 hours a day everyday then you should be close...if not you gave it a decent shot to see where you are in the scheme of things...Anything less & you short changing yourself.
 
There're ways to do this without quiting your day job...

Good luck in your adventure but if all you doing is 20 hours a week you just spinning your wheels...Take the next 2 years and take pool like a real job...Hit balls..."the right way " for 8 to 10 hours a day everyday then you should be close...if not you gave it a decent shot to see where you are in the scheme of things...Anything less & you short changing yourself.

My wife made me buy a pool table (not complaining) because she didn't want me spending five or six hours a day in a pool hall. Then she complained for a little bit when I still went to pool halls.

You have to have competition. You have to have the BEST quality competition you CAN. You can't practice laying down and expect to always play your best game.

the absolute best pool players don't hustle. They can't or they'd sacrifice a part of their game, besides, by the time they get to that point, everyone knows their speed anyways.

If the OP just wants to improve his game to the highest level he can, then he can buy a pool table and practice at home all of his free time.

He'll have to compete in regional open tourneys to really improve for tourney play and play some money game matches against the best players he can find if he wants to improve his money game... but I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

Jaden
 
great discussion

I'm new here and not much of a pool player compared to most, so I have little to offer. I really just want to thank everyone for offering great advice to the OP. It's good wisdom for me and many others, I'm sure.
Potential being a French word came from Bob Uecker in Major League if I'm not mistaken. I use that line often.
As to the golf comparison, my undertsanding is that 1 or 2 percent of people who start playing as adults ever reach even handicap. Yikes!
To be truly great at anything it seems it needs to be a lifelong pursuit. Start with 10,000 hours and go from there. Study the game. Practice it correctly. And COMPETE!
I know I'm only reiterating some of what's been said, so I hope you'll forgive me.
I have a niche within photography that I do pretty well at. I'd put my work up against anyone's work anywhere and anytime. Getting to this point hasn't been easy. Staying here may be even harder. Someone once looked at my work and asked what it's like to be that good at something. I was incredibly flattered, primarily because he had played college baseball. I enveyed him for that.
I hope your burning desire for this game takes you where you want to go.
This community has given you priceless advice and shared some great stories.
Thanks to everyone!
 
My wife made me buy a pool table (not complaining) because she didn't want me spending five or six hours a day in a pool hall. Then she complained for a little bit when I still went to pool halls.

You have to have competition. You have to have the BEST quality competition you CAN. You can't practice laying down and expect to always play your best game.

the absolute best pool players don't hustle. They can't or they'd sacrifice a part of their game, besides, by the time they get to that point, everyone knows their speed anyways.

If the OP just wants to improve his game to the highest level he can, then he can buy a pool table and practice at home all of his free time.

He'll have to compete in regional open tourneys to really improve for tourney play and play some money game matches against the best players he can find if he wants to improve his money game... but I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

Jaden

I hear what you saying & agree..I didn't elaberate when I posted what I did but every pro/road player I know took at least 2 years like I said...The more quality play the better even lessons...I just seen his earlier post where he said he was playing 20 hours a week
 
i see everybody keeps talking about how young you start and how long it took him to get to B status so this is my opinion on this...im only 22 i started when i was 16 my first ever small bar tournament with maybe 5 solid VNEA A ranked players and i took 3rd out of around 30...its been 6 years now and i am now ranked a AA and play the top players around me...i gamble with SVB and he gives me the 7...so i would consider myself a 2nd string short stop mostly because of the high amount of good players around here. so i think im kind of fitting the description you are all giving? I was never allowed to play as a C so i jumped right in as a B
 
Applying all the hours you'll need to become real professional pool player to almost any endeavor in the commercial/business world will reap far greater rewards.
There are very, very few professional pool players who make even $60K after a lifetime of sacrifice, dedication and practice.

That's about the starting salary for an engineer.

If you're a young buck, look at the lifestyle of the professional players: sleeping two or three up in B grade motels
or often in your car, eating at Sizzler when you've made a score but more often at Taco Bell or even 7 Eleven, staying up all night in,
depressing dives that smell of beer and urine listening to drunks bicker, while trying to get a game or stalling in the hopes
of getting the bet up in the game you're in, driving four hours because you heard there was action and then finding out it was BS,
living single because after a few months and the "glamour" wears off and you've blown through her savings too on matches you "couldn't lose" she takes off and it dawns
on you that no girl you've ever dreamed of will be traveling this road with you.
While your childhood friends and classmates are spending a couple of weeks in a rented chateau in Tuscany.
"Why don't you join us?"
And, "She married a Thoracic surgeon. I thought you knew. Yeah, they flew friends and family into Napa for the ceremony.
It is was magnificent." You think that's what they said because you can barely hear over the dryers in the laundrymat
where you're putting in a load of threadbare t-shirts, socks and your extra pair of jeans permanently stained with the chalk from the
rails where you scrape out a $100 on a good day.
Two hours until the Town Tap opens, might be some old-timers looking to play some $10 or $20 dollar one-pocket.
You'd like to get up enough for a room tonite-$49 out by the interstate.
Hell, if you get real lucky you might get enough to fix the water pump. You can get out of the cold and kill time
in this little diner across the street drinking their stale coffee and watch for the Stroh's sign to come on ... two hours and you're up champ ... go get 'em.
It's show time.

You should write a book because you built that scene and mindset real well. That is the hustling/road life and it is what it is in this game we call pool for many they have no vision of a bigger picture. For a few the pro scene and appearance money pays the difference nobody wins even close to what a 5 year lineman earns in football. Most if not all other games/sports are about the same as pool for the up and comers lots of work no money but most of them have a bucket at the end of the rainbow. EG - Some people chase a little white ball and the up and comers/grinders on the mini tour do live not much better until they get that card either by winning something or Q School or whatever. But they are living a dream by playing a game pool just does not currently offer the card.

To the OP, If you have a dream chase it but keep your eye on reality. Buy a table even if you have to put at your parents or in a friends garage/basement especially if time is expensive you mention the cost to practice is a detriment earlier in this thread. In your favor if you want to compete against the best in the world I think you have made the best possible choice by selecting pool as your game. For 500 to 1000 bucks or so you can basically compete against the best in the world on any week that there is a pool tournament. You can compete against SVB, Archer, Mika etc for the cost of the entry plus a hotel bill and some expenses. You cannot do that in tennis or golf or basketball or even bowling but you can play the best in pool in a tournament environment so you know exactly what your costs are per event. You say you have some income or savings so invest in yourself compete against the best.

So keep grinding on your game and then take a shot at a big tournament to guage yourself go home do the local thing with practice and whatever competion you can find there and then try it again in a couple of months. You sound like you are keeping your head above water financially I read your blog sounds like alot of other peoples experiences but you are at least keeping track and analyzing that is really good. I hope to see you out there improving making strides. Good luck in your journey.

Cue balls do not know who hit them so you can do anything anyone else can in this game, all you have to do is imagine it and make it real.
 
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Truthfully I wish I could play more but realistically I can't and if I could, I wouldn't want to play 8-12 hours a day 5 or 6 days a week. What kind of life would that be?....I'd miss out on a lot.


I am not looking to go against the grain, but this could be your biggest issue. Pool needs to be an obsession, you have to want to play, or at least force your self to play 8-12 hours a day 5 or 6 days a week to get to the highest levels of our sport, that is why a lot of people are saying it's a little unrealistic for you, as you already have a family and those sorts of things that undoubtedly deserve your time, most likely more than you need to play pool.


Simon
 
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