Twisting your wrist
- Thread starter Joeyb1979
- Start date
There are some people who think that twisting the wrist during impact will put some kind of useful, special spin on the cue ball. I don't know of any demonstration of this bizarre idea, so my conclusion is that those people are confused.
Amen, Bob. Lots of people are confused by this idea. Part of the problem is that there is information from some "instructors" that promotes this belief...even though, as you stated, there is no evidence to support this proposition. Twisting the cue is a bad habit, and can be easily detected with video review of a student's stroke process. Correcting it can be accomplished by paying attention to how you stroke through the CB, and keeping a very loose grip.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Luvthegame
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This is a bad habit that I have to constantly focus on. My stroke and cue ball hit was inconsistent and I decided to go to Randy G's class in Dallas. It didn't take long for the video to show the problem. The wrist twist has been with me for years and years so I have to be certain to grip lightly and follow through with every shot. I especially need to be careful if I need to put speed on the cueball.
@Scott
i m for sure not that experienced like you-and for sure you re much cooler after thousands of students. This discussions with such *i-know-it-better-students* can drive me crazy sometimes.
Really hard to understand that it is so hard to *keep it as simple* as possible for some players. Especially if you can explain it and the sense is clear.
Now i just try to smile and say more often: Oh, didn t know that. thx-and turn around-better for my nerves :grin-square:
lg
Ingo
i m for sure not that experienced like you-and for sure you re much cooler after thousands of students. This discussions with such *i-know-it-better-students* can drive me crazy sometimes.
Really hard to understand that it is so hard to *keep it as simple* as possible for some players. Especially if you can explain it and the sense is clear.
Now i just try to smile and say more often: Oh, didn t know that. thx-and turn around-better for my nerves :grin-square:
lg
Ingo
If your talking about guys like Earl that twist their wrist on basically every shot........its because their mechanics are out of wack with center.........
they twist the wrist in or out to bring the cuestick back in line with the shot as its delivered
this is a learned disorder..........as the body does one thing and the brain wants a straight line so the body does something else to correct it........
now Earl gets to the same place as he's supposed to at the end but he has more steps mechanically to get there.
you won't gain anything by doing this..........you can lose accuracy or end up as good a player like earl with the motion, but you wont gain anything performance wise from that type of stroking action.
you know the two bones on the sides or your wrist?
optimally (simplest mechanically)the center of the cuestick should be centered directly underneath that.........thats the center of your forearm/delivery mechanisim
-Grey Ghost-
they twist the wrist in or out to bring the cuestick back in line with the shot as its delivered
this is a learned disorder..........as the body does one thing and the brain wants a straight line so the body does something else to correct it........
now Earl gets to the same place as he's supposed to at the end but he has more steps mechanically to get there.
you won't gain anything by doing this..........you can lose accuracy or end up as good a player like earl with the motion, but you wont gain anything performance wise from that type of stroking action.
you know the two bones on the sides or your wrist?
optimally (simplest mechanically)the center of the cuestick should be centered directly underneath that.........thats the center of your forearm/delivery mechanisim
-Grey Ghost-
There are two kinds of wrist turns--- the intentional and non-intentional.
The non-intentional turns are obviously stroke flaws and can be solved with the suggestions listed above.
The intentional turns are separated into two categories: The "spinners" and the "turners." The spinners are those who think they get more spin by rotating the cue (along its axis)--- which, as Bob suggested --- is bizarre.
The turners cock their wrist in order to swipe across the face of the CB. The effect of this motion is the same as a backhand pivot. This can be a very valuable tool as it's very repeatable and consistent. However, it's only practical after years of development. It's not something you can just play with today and master the motion.
Chavez is a guy that comes to mind who incorporates the wrist turn to impart english on the ball. It's NOT from the "spinning" of the cue; rather, it's the pivoting motion of the tip from the center axis (usually a consistent 1-tip offset in either direction). Truman Hogue uses the same technique for banking. As a right hander, your right knuckles rotate up for 1-tip of left english and they turn down for 1-tip of right english. The cue's offset from the center line of your forearm is what deviates the tip.
In conclusion, turning your wrist can be a completely legit technique. I'm sure it can be argued that the same results can be made with a straight cue; however, being that I'm a pivot-player myself, I think there are a ton of shots that are more easily made with with a strike across the face of the CB versus straight into it. Well, every english shot, imo.
The non-intentional turns are obviously stroke flaws and can be solved with the suggestions listed above.
The intentional turns are separated into two categories: The "spinners" and the "turners." The spinners are those who think they get more spin by rotating the cue (along its axis)--- which, as Bob suggested --- is bizarre.
The turners cock their wrist in order to swipe across the face of the CB. The effect of this motion is the same as a backhand pivot. This can be a very valuable tool as it's very repeatable and consistent. However, it's only practical after years of development. It's not something you can just play with today and master the motion.
Chavez is a guy that comes to mind who incorporates the wrist turn to impart english on the ball. It's NOT from the "spinning" of the cue; rather, it's the pivoting motion of the tip from the center axis (usually a consistent 1-tip offset in either direction). Truman Hogue uses the same technique for banking. As a right hander, your right knuckles rotate up for 1-tip of left english and they turn down for 1-tip of right english. The cue's offset from the center line of your forearm is what deviates the tip.
In conclusion, turning your wrist can be a completely legit technique. I'm sure it can be argued that the same results can be made with a straight cue; however, being that I'm a pivot-player myself, I think there are a ton of shots that are more easily made with with a strike across the face of the CB versus straight into it. Well, every english shot, imo.
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Tweaking Wrist
A tip i heard that has seemed to help me a lot on this bad habbit is with your grip hand. With your wrist straight and your grip hand holding the cue, gently push your thumb against your index finger. This engages some muscles in your wrist and I don't tweak my wrist nearly as much as I use to.
Another tip I was told that I'll share: to prevent jumping up on shots - after you form your bridge hand, gently press your fingers down into the table. Not too hard, but enough you can feel it. This has helped me a lot with not jumping up on shots.
A tip i heard that has seemed to help me a lot on this bad habbit is with your grip hand. With your wrist straight and your grip hand holding the cue, gently push your thumb against your index finger. This engages some muscles in your wrist and I don't tweak my wrist nearly as much as I use to.
Another tip I was told that I'll share: to prevent jumping up on shots - after you form your bridge hand, gently press your fingers down into the table. Not too hard, but enough you can feel it. This has helped me a lot with not jumping up on shots.
Spidey,
Excellent post.....I am proud to promote this belief. Pool is a visual/motor activity. Many, many of the best players in the world use this technique. Some use it and are not aware of it while others employ the technique on purpose. The wrist twist when properly used is a small motion....At high levels of pool, small motions can be huge.....
Stan Shuffett
My apologies, but this sounds like something a snake oil salesman would say.
Please explain what value s student would get from spending years trying to master this technique. What spin is this technique supposed to provide that one can't get from a simple pendulum stroke?
Stan, please feel free to answer also.
I don't think a student would "try" to master this technique. I think someone "might" evolve into this technique based on their preference for applying english.
Mark, I think you misunderstood my post. This isn't "get more spin" than doing a traditional method. What you're really discussing here is does someone prefer backhand english versus applying english with a parallel method or versus a combination for FHE and BHE.
For a LOT of players world wide (stress a LOT), many prefer to apply english with a backhand pivot versus a straight cue. It's not a spin-issue (more versus less)---- it's a consistency issue in pocketing the ball with english.
For me, I can't make balls with a straight cue when applying any real english (LD shaft or not). Everything seems like a guess (for me). However, I'll pivot a ball in with max english in any direction with a backhand pivot a lot more easily. It's preference - and I think any instructor who would "condemn" backhand pivoting techniques as "bad technique" has a lot to learn about them (I'm not saying that's you - I think you just misunderstood my first post).
Hope that answers. In short, I'm not saying this provides more spin than traditional shooting methods (nor is anyone saying that). I think some players feel a wrist turn (pivot) is more comfortable than moving their entire back arm or upper torso (hip pivot). I think they likely think there's less movement and it's more repeatable.
I hope that clears it up.
P.S. An aim pivot and english pivot are two movements based on two different circles. Players who use one or both MUST move the back of their cue somehow. Obviously, based on this thread--- there are a number of ways to do that.
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Spider, I get what you are saying about BHE and all but I have a couple of questions. First off, I don't really pivot when I use back hand english but more normally I set up already on the BHE line. More to the point though, even with guys that do formally pivot to apply BHE, isn't this done during some point when down on the shot before or during the warm up strokes with the pivot accomplished by moving ("pivoting") the grip hand in or out from the body rather than not at all until the through-stroke and then done by twisting the wrist?
BTW, when I think of twisting the wrist I'm thinking of a movement similar to operating a motorcycle throttle and not a wrist snap to add power (like throwing a dart) or moving the grip towards or away from the body. I know that the wrist twist I'm talking about only causes me problems.
Thanks.
BTW, when I think of twisting the wrist I'm thinking of a movement similar to operating a motorcycle throttle and not a wrist snap to add power (like throwing a dart) or moving the grip towards or away from the body. I know that the wrist twist I'm talking about only causes me problems.
Thanks.
Spider, I get what you are saying about BHE and all but I have a couple of questions. First off, I don't really pivot when I use back hand english but more normally I set up already on the BHE line.
If you can do that - that's great. Takes a LOT of talent to fall on a post-pivot BHE line while standing up. I think it takes a lot of talent to perform a BHE pivot accurately mechanically at the table. I'm sure you developed your method over many, many hours of playing.
More to the point though, even with guys that do formally pivot to apply BHE, isn't this done during some point when down on the shot before or during the warm up strokes with the pivot accomplished by moving ("pivoting") the grip hand in or out from the body rather than not at all until the through-stroke and then done by twisting the wrist?
Yes, definitely. There is a small % of players who prefer "dynamic" BHE (pivoting while stroking). Those who prefer this method and have the coordination to make it work don't have "poor mechanics" -- they have highly advanced / developed mechanics (most of which is a gift, imo, -- you either are capable of this or you're not). Watch the final tip position based on the line of the cue. A lot of top players finish their stroke to the side purposefully. I'm not endorsing it for normal pool students; however, I'm definitely NOT calling it poor technique / bad mechanics - because it's not.
BTW, when I think of twisting the wrist I'm thinking of a movement similar to operating a motorcycle throttle and not a wrist snap to add power (like throwing a dart) or moving the grip towards or away from the body. I know that the wrist twist I'm talking about only causes me problems.
I think it's somewhere in between. It's not slow yet it's not a super fast snap. It's a quicker motion that's in proportion to the speed of the stroke.
I just wanted to clarify -- I'm not ENDORSING this as "the move". I'm merely saying it's a legit technique (certainly advanced) and I understand the basis of it.
Dave
If you can do that - that's great. Takes a LOT of talent to fall on a post-pivot BHE line while standing up. I think it takes a lot of talent to perform a BHE pivot accurately mechanically at the table. I'm sure you developed your method over many, many hours of playing.
More to the point though, even with guys that do formally pivot to apply BHE, isn't this done during some point when down on the shot before or during the warm up strokes with the pivot accomplished by moving ("pivoting") the grip hand in or out from the body rather than not at all until the through-stroke and then done by twisting the wrist?
Yes, definitely. There is a small % of players who prefer "dynamic" BHE (pivoting while stroking). Those who prefer this method and have the coordination to make it work don't have "poor mechanics" -- they have highly advanced / developed mechanics (most of which is a gift, imo, -- you either are capable of this or you're not). Watch the final tip position based on the line of the cue. A lot of top players finish their stroke to the side purposefully. I'm not endorsing it for normal pool students; however, I'm definitely NOT calling it poor technique / bad mechanics - because it's not.
BTW, when I think of twisting the wrist I'm thinking of a movement similar to operating a motorcycle throttle and not a wrist snap to add power (like throwing a dart) or moving the grip towards or away from the body. I know that the wrist twist I'm talking about only causes me problems.
I think it's somewhere in between. It's not slow yet it's not a super fast snap. It's a quicker motion that's in proportion to the speed of the stroke.
I just wanted to clarify -- I'm not ENDORSING this as "the move". I'm merely saying it's a legit technique (certainly advanced) and I understand the basis of it.
Dave
Hi Bob,
I remember seeing Bryce shooting at Lucky Shot Billiards on a Friday night tournament years ago...maybe 4 or 5 years ago.
He was pounding some balls, but I noticed he was intentionally twisting his wrist during the impact of the cue/cue ball.
I also noticed the CB would have a much different action after contacting the OB, than if he had shot the same shot without the twist.
I tried this myself, and I did see a noticeable difference. You do have to use a powerful stroke to see this "bizarre" CB action. It takes a hell of a lot of co-ordination to do this while accurately/consistently hitting the spot on the CB you are aiming for, especially with a power stroke.
In my opinion, it's impractical to use this technique....unless you're a trick shot artist.
-Mat P.
...Agreed, and even in that venue I can't see the need. Twisting the wrist is difficult to do, accurately and repeatedly...especially just at the fraction of a second of contact, between tip and CB. Any twisting movement after the 1/1000th of a second contact with the CB, would be irrelevant...as the CB would have already left the tip.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott--
I think you missed the earlier posts. Twisting (spinning) would apply to your post. Twisting (turning) is a BHE pivoting technique that's done well before contact.
I think it's important to point out that to us in this thread, pivoting from your wrist during your stroke (dynamic BHE, if you would) might be thought of as "too difficult to be practical" or a "trick;" however, to many elite-caliber players this technique provides (to them) the very best way to apply predictable and repeatable english. Just because we can't do it doesn't mean it may not be the very best solution for them.
I hope this doesn't get into a debate on ____ technique is better than ___ technique to apply english (spinning the cue excluded--- because that's not a legit technique).
Turning your wrist is a BHE pivot - plain and simple - and is done prior to contact with the CB.