Unethical Win at Swanee 2014

[Neil]

Show me where the rule is that states if you remember that you didn't mark up a game (regardless of how or why you remember) that it can't then be marked up???

This was NOT a rule, this was a judgement call that had to be made. For a judgement call to HAVE to be made there has to be a contest by the opponent to the situation.

Once it was determined that the game was missed there shouldn't have been a contestation.

That there was and then that a ruling was made does fit the letter of the rules and I can understand why Dave made the ruling that he did. That doesn't make the original contestation any more ethical or right.

Then to refuse to play a final determining game based on advice from the crowd, showcases the bad advice of the people in the crowd.

Jaden

1. fans are not supposed to interfere with the match at all. That includes stating fouls or not marking games.
2. The referee was asked to make a ruling, and he did. (cited the same reason, by the way) That should be the end of it there, as his ruling is supposed to final unless one cares to take it to a higher authority on appeal..


I kinda pride myself on knowing the rules, and, obviously, I am a stickler on them. I believe there should be one set of rules for pool, not a different set for every league and tournament. Too hard to keep track of, and nobody really then understands the rules.

That said, in regard to your question of citing the rule..... after extensive searching, and even a long distance phone call, I have to admit that in this case, I was wrong. There is no such written rule. It has been such a long unwritten rule that I believed it was in the actual written rules. It isn't. But should be, and most likely will be in the next revision of the rules. So, yes, this time the "stickler" got stuck. I take pride in knowing what I am talking about, but this time, as far as it actually being a rule, I was wrong. It happens.

However, not being a written rule, it has been an unwritten rule for a long time, as others have attested to, and as the referree stated. The fact that I was wrong on the written rule part, doesn't change my stance on it at all. As cited by #1 and #2 above. You can also add a #3 in that it is the players responsibility.

The fact that it isn't an actual written rule does not deter from the facts that have been stated in this thread about why it should not be allowed to be scored at a later time. The score definitely affects the games. Both in mental attitude of the players, and also in shot selection. By rights it shouldn't, but it does.

So, again, I apologize about it not being a rule. I always try and make sure that things I post on here can be backed up, and this time I assumed and we all know what that gets one.

 

[decent dennis]

This thread has me really scratching my head. There are people on this forum whose judgement I respect and I'm a bit surprised that I'm coming down on the opposite side of this question as they are. I suppose maybe this is an instance where decent people can disagree but I'll at least take one last stab at this.

The idea that not giving Greg credit for the missed rack is unfair to him may very well be true. However, what is being overlooked is the fact that going back after the fact and giving Greg the rack is unfair to Chris. In pool, especially among amateur players the score can have an impact on the match. If you're opponent is on the hill maybe your shot selection will be different. Add to that if you are playing an alternate break format and you are up by a couple of racks you may go for the win instead of playing safe. Also, we have all seen guys that for whatever reason, they just have a hard time closing out a match. Going back and giving someone a match in the fashion that so many people are advocating for removes this last hurdle before the finish line. That's very unfair to Chris.

So here's where I think the actually ethical dilemma lies - if Chris knows in his heart of hearts that the score being wrong had no bearing on his shot selection, his performance, or that of his opponent, then I think he should give him the rack. This is why early in a match I can see how correcting the score makes since. However, as you get closer to the finish line -- knowing these things is absolutely impossible. This is why I think it is important to remember that ultimately it's the player's responsibility to keep an accurate account of his own score and if you fail to do so, the gentlemanly thing to do is to just accept the blame for it and move on.

Like many on here, I will call fouls on myself much to the chagrin of some of the onlookers just because it's the right thing to do. But giving someone a rack that they failed to mark properly goes beyond being gentlemanly and to me it feels more like charity. We shouldn't be expected to be charitable when we are competing. That may sound harsh but hopefully it doesn't sound immoral or unethical.

Very thought provoking thread.

Hey, leave my people out of it.:grin:

 

[fast&loose designs]

1. fans are not supposed to interfere with the match at all. That includes stating fouls or not marking games.
2. The referee was asked to make a ruling, and he did. (cited the same reason, by the way) That should be the end of it there, as his ruling is supposed to final unless one cares to take it to a higher authority on appeal..


I kinda pride myself on knowing the rules, and, obviously, I am a stickler on them. I believe there should be one set of rules for pool, not a different set for every league and tournament. Too hard to keep track of, and nobody really then understands the rules.

That said, in regard to your question of citing the rule..... after extensive searching, and even a long distance phone call, I have to admit that in this case, I was wrong. There is no such written rule. It has been such a long unwritten rule that I believed it was in the actual written rules. It isn't. But should be, and most likely will be in the next revision of the rules. So, yes, this time the "stickler" got stuck. I take pride in knowing what I am talking about, but this time, as far as it actually being a rule, I was wrong. It happens.

However, not being a written rule, it has been an unwritten rule for a long time, as others have attested to, and as the referree stated. The fact that I was wrong on the written rule part, doesn't change my stance on it at all. As cited by #1 and #2 above. You can also add a #3 in that it is the players responsibility.

The fact that it isn't an actual written rule does not deter from the facts that have been stated in this thread about why it should not be allowed to be scored at a later time. The score definitely affects the games. Both in mental attitude of the players, and also in shot selection. By rights it shouldn't, but it does.

So, again, I apologize about it not being a rule. I always try and make sure that things I post on here can be backed up, and this time I assumed and we all know what that gets one.

Let me reiterate; I do NOT believe Greg should be credited his game he forgot about - I believe Chris should have conceded the match. That's all. I'm not suggesting they re-play, that the rules should be changed, anything. I'm suggesting that matches shouldn't be lost on technicalities, they should be WON.

 

[dabarbr]

I believe there are a couple of things that can be learned from this.

Number 1. Be responsible for marking your score and checking to see that your opponent is marking his score correctly.

Number 2. Know full well in the future, that if you purposefully accept a ruling in your favor that you did not in fact earn, that there will be those who will look upon you as a cad. Accept that fact or be a gentleman and do the right thing.

Number 3. Tournament directors and referees are human and they make mistakes. It is your job as a competitor to make sure that they understand the situation so that they can make their best call. As soon as an error or impropriety is realized, take it to the referee to have it resolved. Stand your ground but take the referee's decision like a man, unless you know for a fact that he is wrong, then take it to the next level; the tournament director.

The Internet might open your eyes a bit wider but it won't resolve the particular issue and most everyone will likely get a little dirty in the process.

JoeyA

I think that you might add to your list to never mark your opponent's score. Letting him know that he forgot to move the marker is fine but don't move it for him. This may cause confusion, and may have in this match.

 

[alstl]

I'm not suggesting the opponent should be blamed for Greg's mistake; I'm suggesting that he should have been the bigger man and taken a loss when he really DID lose. Regardless of the rules, regardless of the ref's call, regardless of Greg's indifference, he should have done the RIGHT thing.

I understand what you are saying but my example of the 5th down game - you can google it and read the whole story on wikipedia- Colorado was awarded the win. Nobody retracted the win and awarded it to Missouri when the mistake was discovered. Colorado went on to win the 1990 national championship.

As a longtime Missouri fan I don't blame the officials or Colorado. I blame the Missouri coaches for not catching the mistake when it happened.

 

[easy-e]

1. fans are not supposed to interfere with the match at all. That includes stating fouls or not marking games.
2. The referee was asked to make a ruling, and he did. (cited the same reason, by the way) That should be the end of it there, as his ruling is supposed to final unless one cares to take it to a higher authority on appeal..


I kinda pride myself on knowing the rules, and, obviously, I am a stickler on them. I believe there should be one set of rules for pool, not a different set for every league and tournament. Too hard to keep track of, and nobody really then understands the rules.

That said, in regard to your question of citing the rule..... after extensive searching, and even a long distance phone call, I have to admit that in this case, I was wrong. There is no such written rule. It has been such a long unwritten rule that I believed it was in the actual written rules. It isn't. But should be, and most likely will be in the next revision of the rules. So, yes, this time the "stickler" got stuck. I take pride in knowing what I am talking about, but this time, as far as it actually being a rule, I was wrong. It happens.

However, not being a written rule, it has been an unwritten rule for a long time, as others have attested to, and as the referree stated. The fact that I was wrong on the written rule part, doesn't change my stance on it at all. As cited by #1 and #2 above. You can also add a #3 in that it is the players responsibility.

The fact that it isn't an actual written rule does not deter from the facts that have been stated in this thread about why it should not be allowed to be scored at a later time. The score definitely affects the games. Both in mental attitude of the players, and also in shot selection. By rights it shouldn't, but it does.

So, again, I apologize about it not being a rule. I always try and make sure that things I post on here can be backed up, and this time I assumed and we all know what that gets one.

Blah blah blah, you were wrong. Leave it at that and move on.

 

[terryhanna]

heres the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jNveLanbt0 the TD talks here

 

[itsfroze]

Let me reiterate; I do NOT believe Greg should be credited his game he forgot about - I believe Chris should have conceded the match. That's all. I'm not suggesting they re-play, that the rules should be changed, anything. I'm suggesting that matches shouldn't be lost on technicalities, they should be WON.

They let murders go on technicalities, so you're saying a Pool match is so much more important it shouldn't be decided on a technicality.

If it's hill-hill and your shooting the 9-Ball for the win and barely touch the cue ball on your last practice stroke you're saying since it was such a short and easy shot you would have never missed. I should just concede the game and match because other wise I would be unethical to take ball in hand and win on a technicality.

Of coarse now people will say that's not the same to defend their position.
My reply, technically both situations are the same and in each the rules
need to be followed, not Joe Blow's (morality for the day) whatever that
is. For some of you to suggest that what you deem to be right is more
important than the rules...laughable!

 

[fast&loose designs]

They let murders go on technicalities, so you're saying a Pool match is so much more important it shouldn't be decided on a technicality.

If it's hill-hill and your shooting the 9-Ball for the win and barely touch the cue ball on your last practice stroke you're saying since it was such a short and easy shot you would have never missed. I should just concede the game and match because other wise I would be unethical to take ball in hand and win on a technicality.

Of coarse now people will say that's not the same to defend their position.
My reply, technically both situations are the same and in each the rules
need to be followed, not Joe Blow's (morality for the day) whatever that
is. For some of you to suggest that what you deem to be right is more
important than the rules...laughable!

You think in terms of black and white; the world doesn't work that way. It's naive to think that you can view this whole situation based on technicalities and on black and white comparisons.

 

[TorranceChris]

I think that you might add to your list to never mark your opponent's score. Letting him know that he forgot to move the marker is fine but don't move it for him. This may cause confusion, and may have in this match.

Yes, totally agree with this. I don't touch my opponent's mark for this reason.

 

[LAMas]

I think that you might add to your list to never mark your opponent's score. Letting him know that he forgot to move the marker is fine but don't move it for him. This may cause confusion, and may have in this match.

Chris moves Gregs mark for him. Greg thinks that Chris will always move the mark...confusing?

 

[LAMas]

heres the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jNveLanbt0 the TD talks here

Thanks for the vid terry.

Now everyone can see who they are...got game?

 

[gxman]

After watching the video, chris new all along when his mom had informed him.

 

[banditgrrr]

The part no one seems to mention after 11 pages is that Douche of the Year Award goes to Jerry Matchin. He was commentating with Daniel when they were informed of the score discrepancy. Daniel did the right thing and maintained a neutral position. Jerry took it upon himself to teach Chris a lesson and go tell his mommy. I'm not sure who made Jerry the "morality cop" but I think this was WAY out of line. Would he go tell any other players mother? Absolutely not. The match is between 2 players and the TD. End of story. No one elses opinion matters.

 

[itsfroze]

You think in terms of black and white; the world doesn't work that way. It's naive to think that you can view this whole situation based on technicalities and on black and white comparisons.

Just knew you'd come up with some reason you're correct,
I just didn't think it would be because you know how the "World Works"
and those who disagree, according to you apparently don't.

So you're saying they don't let murders go on a technicality, because
to me that sounds pretty black and white. (according to you not the
way the "World Works") Really?

Get of your high horse, trying to say you know better than what the rules
state. Not surprised you chose not to say anything regarding the example
I gave. A good politician you'd make, just ignore something when it doesn't
suite your side of the argument. It can't be unethical (according to you) to win
in one instance on a technicality but in an other alright... as I already stated...
...laughable

 

[fast&loose designs]

Just knew you'd come up with some reason you're correct,
I just didn't think it would be because you know how the "World Works"
and those who disagree, according to you apparently don't.

So you're saying they don't let murders go on a technicality, because
to me that sounds pretty black and white.

Get of your high horse, trying to say you know better than what the rules
state. Not surprised you chose not to say anything regarding the example
I gave. A good politician you'd make, just ignore something when it doesn't
suite your side of the argument. It can't unethical (according to you) to win
in one instance on a technicality but in the other alright... as I already stated...
...laughable

You seem to also not like it when someone doesn't agree with you, or notice a particular comment. I haven't responded to 95% of the comments here. So because you think your opinion is right, that places you on a high horse as well? I don't think it does. Watch the match, as I did (I watched live), and make your opinions from there.

 

[itsfroze]

You seem to also not like it when someone doesn't agree with you, or notice a particular comment. I haven't responded to 95% of the comments here. So because you think your opinion is right, that places you on a high horse as well? I don't think it does. Watch the match, as I did (I watched live), and make your opinions from there.

The fact is the guy who lost said it was his fault, for not putting up his game.
In a classy post he also said it was not the kids fault.
The tournament director sided in favor of the kid.
However you think, your opinion should override all that.

Thanks though for taking the time to teach me how the "World Works". :thumbup:
Have a great night!

 

[fast&loose designs]

The fact is the guy who lost said it was his fault, for not putting up his game.
In a classy post he also said it was not the kids fault.
The tournament director sided in favor of the kid.
However you think, your opinion should override all that.

Thanks though for taking the time to teach me how the "World Works". :thumbup:
Have a great night!

Does that mean you're done ranting? And yes, that is how the world works - in the grey area, not black & white.

 

[itsfroze]

Does that mean you're done ranting? And yes, that is how the world works - in the grey area, not black & white.

Let's try again,
If it's hill-hill and your shooting the 9-Ball for the win and barely touch the cue ball on your last practice stroke. It was such a short and easy shot you would have never missed it. So you're saying I should just concede the game and match because other wise I would be unethical to take ball in hand and win on a technicality ?

Is there a grey area here, you either touched the cue ball and I get ball in hand,
or you didn't. Where's the grey area?

Oh. I see you think the grey area is whether I am so unethical (according to you)
to take ball in hand on a technicality and win the game or whether I just decide to
concede the game to you. Because I so crave the praise of the self appointed Morally Superior :angel2:

 

[00john]

I agree with this. Chris did nothing wrong. His obligation is to be a fair competitor, not to be a self-sacrificing saint.

3rd party stat keepers tell me , mom texts me , opponent tells me, i concede and shake his hand because he defeated me. i feel great about myself going forward. im a competitor not a self sacrificing saint.