Us and Them

duckie

GregH
Silver Member
No, not the Pink Floyd song, but there is a notion that is starting to appear on hear lately. This notion is not good for the long term growth of pool.

The notion is one of that only someone that is a "pro" is capable of playing top level pool and as such are the only ones that know how its done or can understand the ins and outs of the game.

For whatever reasons, there is this idea that what a "non" pro experiences at the table and during a tourney is less of value than that of a pro or pro event. That the effort the "non" pro puts into improving is not the same value as that of a pro's effort.

In other words, there is a air of snobbery occurring on here. Separate class of players as such, us and them.

Not good.
 
I agree but at the same time its not just pool..

I agree, but it has been this way for over 15 years. I is like that with more than just pool. Examples
I have a Iphone4 well i have the I phone 4S..
I have a 2012 Mustang well I have a 2013 Mustang GT..
and on and on...
I dont play alot any more but when I am out with a bunch of friends I dont run racks or the table.. I make the game streach out with leaves per level of player Im with. I dont brag or boast.

As much I liked the league play (team fun) i hated the cast system. It was too easy to handy cap your level.. plus I would say many 4-5's were under rated because they were out for glory. I admite I did it too:grin: ask the 6 i played and got beat 3-2. but I am getting off the subject.
Remember if you are playing a novice then either teach him stuff, sandbag (pretend its pratice) or tank a few games.
They will play more and fall in love with the game. to quote a fun movie''
"its like a church in here!"
Hope that all helps/
 
I have to agree with you on this one. Seems some people only value your opinion if you make a living from the game, at times it seems like SVB or JA are the only ones that know how to pocket a ball correctly.
What they may not realize is that what separates a professional from an amateur is not the technical skills. There are many technically great players that don't have what it takes to be competitive and that could be mentally or even circumstances like financial/family.
 
No, not the Pink Floyd song, but there is a notion that is starting to appear on hear lately. This notion is not good for the long term growth of pool.

The notion is one of that only someone that is a "pro" is capable of playing top level pool and as such are the only ones that know how its done or can understand the ins and outs of the game.

For whatever reasons, there is this idea that what a "non" pro experiences at the table and during a tourney is less of value than that of a pro or pro event. That the effort the "non" pro puts into improving is not the same value as that of a pro's effort.

In other words, there is a air of snobbery occurring on here. Separate class of players as such, us and them.

Not good.

Maybe we have democrats and republicans, that seems to work to unify people.
 
No, not the Pink Floyd song, but there is a notion that is starting to appear on hear lately. This notion is not good for the long term growth of pool.

The notion is one of that only someone that is a "pro" is capable of playing top level pool and as such are the only ones that know how its done or can understand the ins and outs of the game.

For whatever reasons, there is this idea that what a "non" pro experiences at the table and during a tourney is less of value than that of a pro or pro event. That the effort the "non" pro puts into improving is not the same value as that of a pro's effort.

In other words, there is a air of snobbery occurring on here. Separate class of players as such, us and them.

Not good.


Your point is on cue,
But, the rest probably rests upons ones perception of life in this particular occurance. I'm well aware of this aspect of the game, as I was workin' raising a family and always on the fringe, yet knocked many a door down, but Really....it's a combination of two 'real' factors. The male/ego/youth 'thing' and the feeling of power when your ''knockin' em dead'', it skews ones thinking....unless you were raised by someone with true character or influence, good or bad but consistent. I'm more inclined to call this the
''Pool Player Syndrome''. I've seen it allot in my time, tho to me it shows ones immaturity.
 
Can you be more specific? Was there some argument you were having that inspired this post?

Though some pros might not understand exactly how they do what they do, I generally value their experience and opinions more than most non-pros, whether the question is "how should I get good draw on this cut" or "what should we do to get pool back on TV".

Occasionally a non-pro will say something that makes so much sense to me that I can't help agreeing with it regardless of whether he can run a rack. And on rarer occasions, a pro will say something so nutty I just can't give it any credit.

If you feel you (or someone else) has chosen not to make a career out of pool, but still plays at pro level (i.e. can drop a six pack in 8/9/10 ball every so often, run 100+ in straight pool, whatever) then I would probably listen to what that person has to say.

If they can't play at that level, I probably wouldn't go out of my way to study their posts.
 
Like the song anyway

I'll throw in my .02 just because I like to. I'm not a newb and I'm certainly no pro BUT,.......

I will say this: No newb or PRO has a lock on in-sight or perspective. You can say that for anything, not just pool.
Some crazed fans know more about the game than some assistant coaches do.

That said: I have learned on here, from both and hence value EVERYONE's opinions ! Sometimes you just never know just where you'll find the answer to the question.
 
No, not the Pink Floyd song, but there is a notion that is starting to appear on hear lately. This notion is not good for the long term growth of pool.

The notion is one of that only someone that is a "pro" is capable of playing top level pool and as such are the only ones that know how its done or can understand the ins and outs of the game.

For whatever reasons, there is this idea that what a "non" pro experiences at the table and during a tourney is less of value than that of a pro or pro event. That the effort the "non" pro puts into improving is not the same value as that of a pro's effort.

In other words, there is a air of snobbery occurring on here. Separate class of players as such, us and them.

Not good.

There is a separate class of players. There is the pro level and there is the rest of us.

Until you have actually been around a lot of pros or played them you don't REALLY understand the difference in levels. Of course a person doesn't have to be a "professional" to play world class pool. There are many examples of people with day jobs who are at or near world class level.

But I think what you are referring to is the idea that an amateur can know as much about playing high level pool as a pro and for 99% of amateur players that idea is wrong. The difference in levels between a good APA 7 and a top pro is enormous.

This difference is not only in knowledge but also in execution. So when a professional player tries to describe what they do they are doing from a perspective that most amateurs don't have. How can an amateur who struggles to run three racks tell a pro who regularly runs six anything about how to play pool? (to be clear I am NOT talking about coaches who have made it their career to understand the mechanics of the game).

I am sorry Greg but there is a major difference between you and them. I do understand that you consider yourself to be a student of the game. But you act like you are a master of the game and that's where you are wrong. Many of us have tried to tell you this but you continue to promote the idea that just because you put in a lot of hours you now are qualified to speak with authority on how to play pool. You aren't.

Pros on the other hand have had to put in thousands of hours on the table by themselves and in battle to get where they are. They earn every victory and gain tremendous experience when battling with and training with other pros. In other words they reach levels that most of us only dream about.

Now on a forum it's romantic to think that all people are equal. After all we all have a keyboard and we can say what we want. But while we can all say what we want we don't all have the same experience.

Let me see if I can provide you with an example that makes more sense. Let's say you grow up in a place and know every street, every shop and every body. I have read about your town and visited it for an hour passing through one day.

If we were to have a discussion about your town you might be offended if I acted like an expert by repeating what I had read and amplifying my one hour experience into something that sounded more like I had lived there for a long time. It would be obvious to you that I had no real idea what I was talking about but it wouldn't be so obvious to others. That's what a forum is like. When you talk about pool and try to make it seem as if whatever you say about how to play the game is as valuable as whatever a pro has to say then that's simply not true.

Throughout history knowledge is passed down from masters to novices not from novices to novices. In our sport the pros are the masters. When you use the forum to put them down, to belittle them, to attempt raise yourself to their level you simply create the type of place that they don't want to hang out in. So what you are left with is amateurs teaching amateurs.

And some of the amateurs here are very good. No doubt about it. Some of them are shortstop level and some of them could probably be pros if they wanted to be. But those are very few and most of us are no where near pro class even if we imagine ourselves to be.

So as hard as it to swallow you have to understand that it's not snobbery when people tell you that professionals are in another class. It's reality. That's not to say that every pro is right about the physics of the game. But it is to say that when a pro is here we should spend more time listening for the helpful things that come from their perspective and experience rather than arguing with them and trying to run them off.

Having no pros here is also not good. We have already run most of them off as it is.
 
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There is a separate class of players. There is the pro level and there is the rest of us.


But I think what you are referring to is the idea that an amateur can know as much about playing high level pool as a pro and for 99% of amateur players that idea is wrong. The difference in levels between a good APA 7 and a top pro is enormous.

Now on a forum it's romantic to think that all people are equal.

Great post John.

I'll add that to keep this in an amateur perspective, for APA players who are say an SL-5 or 6 in 8-ball (is that APA 5/8, 6/8?), no matter how eloquent or logical words might sound from an SL-2 teammate, he isn't going to give too much credit to what the SL-2 is saying about how to play this game.

Likewise, and SL-2 most likely will try to soak up everything the SL-5/6 is going to have to say. I would hope that even if the SL-5 isn't making any logical sense that if the SL-2 has any talent for the game due to the "illogical" helping hand.

Freddie <~~~ soaked
 
There's one thing in pool that is so unlike almost all of the major sports:

For instance, in basketball as a kid I was a complete gym rat. I could dribble a basketball as good as anybody. I had a really good understanding of the game and its fundamentals. There was essentially nothing that the better players could do that I couldn't. With one major caveat - they had the physical traits that I lacked (height, strength, speed, etc.). These players advanced on in their careers because of their superior physical traits, not because they KNEW more than me. I think this same thing happens in a lot of other sports (football, baseball, and soccer just to name a few).

In the sports where physical attributes play such an important part in whether or not you advance to the next level it's easy to see that there could be players that have a better understanding of the game than those who ACTUALLY played it a high level. You see this all the time in the coaching ranks. The coaching ranks are filled with guys that fought their way through without the superior physical skills.

Back to pool....in our game there are no specific physical traits required. You don't have to be tall, or strong, or fast. You just have to have some coordination and a lot of passion. I think because of this, there's a natural tendency to give those that have made it to the mountain top, at least the benefit of the doubt when they have something to say. This doesn't mean that what they have to say shouldn't be scrutinized, but you can't dismiss it like you could in other sports, by saying, "well if he wasn't 7'2" and 280 lbs he wouldn't be playing in the NBA, so what does he know."

Everybody that has played pool at the professional level has put in a tremendous amount of time on the table, a ridiculous amount of time. This does (as it should) give them a leg up on us part timers when it comes to offering insight into how the game is played at the highest level. Of course, this doesn't mean everything they say is correct. It just means they are more worth listening to than I am. That's just the way it is, and I'm okay with that.
 
Must run 100?

Can you be more specific? Was there some argument you were having that inspired this post?

Though some pros might not understand exactly how they do what they do, I generally value their experience and opinions more than most non-pros, whether the question is "how should I get good draw on this cut" or "what should we do to get pool back on TV".

Occasionally a non-pro will say something that makes so much sense to me that I can't help agreeing with it regardless of whether he can run a rack. And on rarer occasions, a pro will say something so nutty I just can't give it any credit.

If you feel you (or someone else) has chosen not to make a career out of pool, but still plays at pro level (i.e. can drop a six pack in 8/9/10 ball every so often, run 100+ in straight pool, whatever) then I would probably listen to what that person has to say.

If they can't play at that level, I probably wouldn't go out of my way to study their posts.

I haven't run 6 racks in a few years, and I never ran 100 in straight pool (to be fair to myself, I never played much straight pool), yet the people who come to me for lessons usually express their satisfaction and gratitude. Are they wrong? Should they ignore my lessons or my posts?

I gave a young fella a "basics" lesson in 1965. In now way was a real instructor at that time. Yet somehow he became a rather good player and gave me credit....you don't have to know EVERYTHING (no one does), to teach SOME THINGS.
 
There is a separate class of players. There is the pro level and there is the rest of us.

Until you have actually been around a lot of pros or played them you don't REALLY understand the difference in levels. Of course a person doesn't have to be a "professional" to play world class pool. There are many examples of people with day jobs who are at or near world class level.

But I think what you are referring to is the idea that an amateur can know as much about playing high level pool as a pro and for 99% of amateur players that idea is wrong. The difference in levels between a good APA 7 and a top pro is enormous.

This difference is not only in knowledge but also in execution. So when a professional player tries to describe what they do they are doing from a perspective that most amateurs don't have. How can an amateur who struggles to run three racks tell a pro who regularly runs six anything about how to play pool? (to be clear I am NOT talking about coaches who have made it their career to understand the mechanics of the game).

I am sorry Greg but there is a major difference between you and them. I do understand that you consider yourself to be a student of the game. But you act like you are a master of the game and that's where you are wrong. Many of us have tried to tell you this but you continue to promote the idea that just because you put in a lot of hours you now are qualified to speak with authority on how to play pool. You aren't.

Pros on the other hand have had to put in thousands of hours on the table by themselves and in battle to get where they are. They earn every victory and gain tremendous experience when battling with and training with other pros. In other words they reach levels that most of us only dream about.

Now on a forum it's romantic to think that all people are equal. After all we all have a keyboard and we can say what we want. But while we can all say what we want we don't all have the same experience.

Let me see if I can provide you with an example that makes more sense. Let's say you grow up in a place and know every street, every shop and every body. I have read about your town and visited it for an hour passing through one day.

If we were to have a discussion about your town you might be offended if I acted like an expert by repeating what I had read and amplifying my one hour experience into something that sounded more like I had lived there for a long time. It would be obvious to you that I had no real idea what I was talking about but it wouldn't be so obvious to others. That's what a forum is like. When you talk about pool and try to make it seem as if whatever you say about how to play the game is as valuable as whatever a pro has to say then that's simply not true.

Throughout history knowledge is passed down from masters to novices not from novices to novices. In our sport the pros are the masters. When you use the forum to put them down, to belittle them, to attempt raise yourself to their level you simply create the type of place that they don't want to hang out in. So what you are left with is amateurs teaching amateurs.

And some of the amateurs here are very good. No doubt about it. Some of them are shortstop level and some of them could probably be pros if they wanted to be. But those are very few and most of us are no where near pro class even if we imagine ourselves to be.

So as hard as it to swallow you have to understand that it's not snobbery when people tell you that professionals are in another class. It's reality. That's not to say that every pro is right about the physics of the game. But it is to say that when a pro is here we should spend more time listening for the helpful things that come from their perspective and experience rather than arguing with them and trying to run them off.

Having no pros here is also not good. We have already run most of them off as it is.

This is a very, very good post. I have been to quite a few pro events just to watch. I got to see Earl play in his prime. I worked full time until age 61 and retired. Most pool players that I know in my area have never been to a pro event and have no desire to go to one. They have no idea of the huge gap between pro and amateur skill levels. The conversations as far as pros go are about the ladies on tv that play and how they look. They are always amazed when I tell them there are so few women that compete in professional open events.

BUTT..these are the guys, like me, that spend money on pool. We buy cues and cases, and all the rest of the stuff. I paid over $200. to attend a clinic with JA and Earl. It wasn't that great learning wise, but I enjoyed it. My point is that I think pool is staying alive because of leagues and amateur players. It would be a good thing if more pros would realize that and spend some time cultivating that. Just a thought.
 
As a newbie (playing 10 months now) I've asked a lot of beginner questions on AZB. I can't remember once feeling like a responder was putting me down or that I was wasting people's time.

On the contrary, they've been very helpful and encouraging.

Pool is like golf. We're encouraged to play because everyone - no matter how poor their skills - occasionally makes a fantastic shot. It's called "the shot that brings you back." And everyone has seen a pro miss a shot they'd have easily made. It reminds us that even though pros will always beat amateurs, we're all human: capable of fantastic feats and embarrassing mistakes.
 
Back to pool....in our game there are no specific physical traits required. You don't have to be tall, or strong, or fast. You just have to have some coordination and a lot of passion. I think because of this, there's a natural tendency to give those that have made it to the mountain top, at least the benefit of the doubt when they have something to say. This doesn't mean that what they have to say shouldn't be scrutinized, but you can't dismiss it like you could in other sports, by saying, "well if he wasn't 7'2" and 280 lbs he wouldn't be playing in the NBA, so what does he know."
I get your point, but at the same time I think you're way underestimating the knowledge part of the professional basketball player. I think it's fair to say that even the worst NBA player is in that top 1% of all basketball players in basketball knowledge. "Professional" means the are both at the elite of physical and knowledge.

To me, that idea even strengthens the idea from a knowledge point what a professional pool player brings to the table. But also, it reads that you're way underestimating the physical traits (and I mean physical skill, not necessarily parameters) required for professional play.

Freddie <~~~ IMO, of course
 
No, not the Pink Floyd song, but there is a notion that is starting to appear on hear lately. This notion is not good for the long term growth of pool.

The notion is one of that only someone that is a "pro" is capable of playing top level pool and as such are the only ones that know how its done or can understand the ins and outs of the game.

For whatever reasons, there is this idea that what a "non" pro experiences at the table and during a tourney is less of value than that of a pro or pro event. That the effort the "non" pro puts into improving is not the same value as that of a pro's effort.

In other words, there is a air of snobbery occurring on here. Separate class of players as such, us and them.

Not good.


I disagree. I have never gotten the impression from any one on this site that my play, effort at improvement, or thoughts, are less valuable than the next guy's. In fact here I feel very respected, and with the exception of stepping on a troll here and there, find this forum to be very entertaining and informative.

This is my personal opinion. I still feel like we are in need of some one to do a 1. 2. 3. point presentation about how we can improve this. (Romney/Obama style answer)

best,

Justin
 
If you mean, here, as being this forum, and them, as being those in the pro ranks, then perhaps you are right. I would say, however, and this is only my opinion, that most professionals would find little in common with the mundane world of average pool players and their discussions of tips, low versus high deflection shafts, and those rediculous observations by that Steamer fellow.
Yet, there are pros who participate here, albeit few in number, and generally with viewpoints drifting toward more philosophical subjects. CJ comes to mind. A good poster.
Therefore, I don't think a very hard line should be drawn between the two. They could no more live without us, than we could live without them. :smile:
 
I get your point, but at the same time I think you're way underestimating the knowledge part of the professional basketball player. I think it's fair to say that even the worst NBA player is in that top 1% of all basketball players in basketball knowledge. "Professional" means the are both at the elite of physical and knowledge.

To me, that idea even strengthens the idea from a knowledge point what a professional pool player brings to the table. But also, it reads that you're way underestimating the physical traits (and I mean physical skill, not necessarily parameters) required for professional play.

Freddie <~~~ IMO, of course

You have me pegged right. Of course basketball players at the NBA level possess knowledge about their game. However, it is not a prerequisite. Otherwise, how do you think an 18 year old phenom could get drafted into the league and play at such a young age? I guarantee you that there are literally thousands of Division II and III players out there that understand the game much better than NBA rookies. It's the physical skills that separate them. Of course, they will learn more about the game the longer they play it, but for the most part they don't posses some hidden knowledge that lesser players lack.

And on your second point, I do now probably underestimate the physical traits that are needed for professional play but that's a whole nother' subject. The whole natural ability thing comes up and I've switched camps on that over the course of the past couple of years. I now believe that the idea that "I just don't have the natural ability to play this game" was the biggest lie I ever told myself. It was an excuse I bought into for many years and I think it's a very easy excuse to peg your failures on.
 
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JB, in general, I respectfully disagree. I've had the privilege of extensively playing against pro racquetball players and golfers and have played against Larry Bird in basketball and baseball as well as spent a day in what was primarily a playing lesson with John Brumback. I maintain the vast majority of professional athletes are Savants, they can't necessarily explain the fundamentals of what they do well at all; they just do. They do it at a level most of us can never comprehend, I think the gap you described is even greater than enormous. By no means though does that mean they are good instructors. The day I spent with John Brumback was fantastic. He is simply a great person with pool skills that are beyond my comprehension. I learned a lot. However, and this is no knock on John by any means, he is not the qualified professional instructor Scott Lee is. Were I to somehow reach a level (HIGHLY unlikely) where I wanted to play competitively in bank pool tournaments, there's no doubt I would go to John with specific needs only he could help with. For building my game to even comprehend getting to that level though, Scott Lee will get the calls.

I also think you are missing the point by many, I think Scott Lee described it well. I would bet the vast majority of people who post here and lurk fall into the S/L 2 - 5. They and even better players probably shouldn't be thinking about wrist cock to improve their power. They should be working on building a fundamental stroke from which they can build upon to improve their game. I'd make an argument that attempting to add wrist cock to their already flawed stroke would likely cause far more harm than good. What, an APA 3 should be adding wrist cock to their stroke in order to hit a power draw? LOL

I think Golf is the closest professional sport to pool. When you look at the top 50 rated teaching professionals, only a couple ever had any notable success on the PGA Tour. I don't recall seeing Butch Harmon or Hank Haney ever playing on TV. Funny how arguably, the best golfer to ever play the game (Tiger Woods), turns to someone who has never played anywhere close to his level for instruction. Top pool professionals would likely benefit from having a personal coach who would work with them to improve their basic fundamentals. Why doesn't that happen? Perhaps it is because the 132nd ranked player on the PGA Tour makes 4 or 5 times more money than the number 1 rated male professional pool player. I'd bet Butch Harmon, the top rated PGA Instructor, makes substantially more money than the vast majority of professional pool players. There are many more players here who could likely compete at the professional level were it to make any sense at all financially to do so.

I do agree that professional players, should they choose to do so, could make great contributions to this site. Most that come on here though seem to do so with the primary intent of selling their DVD's, books, etc.. IMHO, I think they should leave the fundamentals and basic instruction to the Professional Instructors. I remember asking John B about what aiming system he utilizes. He looked at me like I was from another planet. "You just aim and put a little English on the CB to avoid skid and help throw that OB into the pocket." I asked him if he employed the diamond system or how he calculated the cut for a bank. John said "Mark, everyone knows the angles." To be fair, if there were a very difficult shot coming up and I asked John what he was thinking and planning on doing to make the shot and get position, he could explain it to me exactly. And then do it perfectly! I think those sorts of things are where the professionals could contribute. I'd like to hear about their tournament experiences. It would be kewl to have them describe their thought process on a run out, when they are thinking two way shots and how they plan to execute them, their thoughts on safety play along with some interesting safeties they've played and how they mentally prepare for an important match. This would all be valuable and of much greater interest than pasting a bunch of irrelevant images from Google searches. The guys that are the real deal don't need that kind of crap to prove their greatness.

There's no way to prove this but if there were, I'd be willing to bet substantial money that were you to take two relative beginners with similar physical and mental capabilities, let one study under Scott Lee, RandyG and Jerry Brieseth for a year while letting the other study under CJ, Earl and Efrem for a year, the former would be a much better player after that time.

Just to be clear, there's nothing I post here that I wouldn't say to that person face to face. I respect CJ's accomplishment's as a player but don't appreciate the crap he is throwing around to satisfy his ego and shill his upcoming DVD release. If CJ will respect other people's intelligence by not throwing around obvious bullshit, I believe the vast majority of people will show him equal or greater respect in return. And even though I thought his DVD was mediocre at best, if I read more about Lee Brett's tournament wins than about him "boning chicks" and boxing matches at the tournaments, I'll respect him a lot more as well. JB, respect is EARNED, not simply given due to position.
 
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