agree completely sjm, and a point well proven. while yes ten ball is a great game too, lets not turn our back on nine ball just for the sake of it and exaggerate it's faults.
US Selections for the 9 ball World Championship
- Thread starter ginsu
- Start date
sjm said:
sjm,
I will respectfully disagree. While no one can argue that the winning players are very good, your argument would be more persuasive if these same 8 players had won every other 9-ball tournament over the past few years; but we continue to see the top 20 or 30 players trading places when 9-ball is the game.
I think what many of us believe is that there may be a smaller group of pro's whose skills are better than the average pro; and we would like a game to identify these players. When we watch a 9-ball match, and see one player get easy layouts that even breakup could run, while his opponent gets nothing but garbage layouts we can't help but think the game is flawed in it's ability to discriminate the greatest players from those who are merely great. In the old days, these elite players were fairly easy to identify when playing straight pool. To many, no argument can persuade that a rotation game (with it's inherent flaw of valuing the last ball more than the others), and where the results of a "power break" are one of the most important factors is a game to differentiate champions.
P.S. - probably the DCC 9-ball results should not be used in such arguments - race to 7, frequent random byes (frequently when only 3 or 5 players remain), and re-draw options makes this particular tournament more subject to luck factors than most.
P.P.S. - Also due for some criticism is the typical double elimination format where luck of the draw (without proper seeding) also contributes to the randomness of the results.
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Flettir said:
Thanks for posting this list. Like it or not, I don't see any weak players on this list. They may not be ALL the best players from the good old USA, but it is not a bad group to represent us over there. Hopefully, one or two of them will get by the round of 64, which no US player did last year. That was embarassing.
I would take this group of fifteen players and wager that at least one of them will make the final sixteen. Okay, make that two of them. I know I'm crazy, but that's my style. I'm a gambler.
Williebetmore said:
Willie, my post compares nine ball to ten ball, and not to any other game. My post was in reply to an implication that ten ball was needed to weed out the best. My argument remains that nine ball is just as good as ten ball when it comes to identifying the elite.
I think we both agree that neither of these games is as good as straight pool when it comes to determining who the most skilled player is --- but remember, this is the nine ball era.
Agree to Disagree
AND THIS ERA OF 9-BALL IS SLOWING STARTING TO FIZZLE.
10-ball helps to take away the predictability of the break. Plus believe it or not that one extra ball on a 9ft table makes a big difference. Run-outs happen less, safety play becomes more integral and tied up balls occur more frequently due to the rack configuration.
I personally predict 10-ball to be the major game within the next 5 years. By that time 9-ball will be only a local and regional occurence.
That is my opinion take it as you like.
And SJM I totally agree with you on str8 pool. There is no better game out there that completely utilizes every requirement for pool. It is the best game to fundamentally work out touch shots, stroke shots, english shots, bank shots, carom shots and defense shots. There is no better game out there that combines every aspect like str8 pool can.
sjm said:
AND THIS ERA OF 9-BALL IS SLOWING STARTING TO FIZZLE.
10-ball helps to take away the predictability of the break. Plus believe it or not that one extra ball on a 9ft table makes a big difference. Run-outs happen less, safety play becomes more integral and tied up balls occur more frequently due to the rack configuration.
I personally predict 10-ball to be the major game within the next 5 years. By that time 9-ball will be only a local and regional occurence.
That is my opinion take it as you like.
And SJM I totally agree with you on str8 pool. There is no better game out there that completely utilizes every requirement for pool. It is the best game to fundamentally work out touch shots, stroke shots, english shots, bank shots, carom shots and defense shots. There is no better game out there that combines every aspect like str8 pool can.
sjm said:
sjm,
I'm with you all the way. The very best players will do well in any contest involving cues and balls.
While I'm certainly a straight pool "snob", I definitely love to play and watch 9-ball.
Snap9 said:
Not only that. It's almost as hard as One Pocket!
sjm said:
it was mentioned Hohmann could spot Dennis 200 in a race to 500. by your assumption he is therefore the more skilled overall player right? 200 is a big spot so he shouldnt have trouble spotting Dennis the 8 in 10 ball and a few games on the wire in 8ball.
.... yup he'd get killed.14.1 absolutely is able to determine who the more skilled player is ... at 14.1.
JohnPT said:it was mentioned Hohmann could spot Dennis 200 in a race to 500. by your assumption he is therefore the more skilled overall player right? 200 is a big spot so he shouldnt have trouble spotting Dennis the 8 in 10 ball and a few games on the wire in 8ball.
14.1 absolutely is able to determine who the more skilled player is ... at 14.1.
Point well taken, but that's not what I'm suggesting. This is the era of nine ball, in which the top pros have focused their efforts on their nine ball skills. In the nine ball era, it makes far more sense to judge players based on their prowess at nine ball than at any other discipline. We agree on that.
What I am suggesting is that if straight pool were to become the dominant discipline in pro pool, it would be slighlty more likely that the best all-around cueists would be the most successful.
sjm said:
agreed, if all players spent the time to learn the intricacies of straight pool then it would be an accurate tool to assess players abilities moreso than 9ball. this however, as we agree is not the present situation. most pros are geared towards 9ball and similar rotation type games.
with regards to games that reflect over-all abilities imo rotation is even better than 14.1. the skill set is more spread out between pocketing, position play, defense, kicking and banking. surely 14.1 too requires all skills but is more favored to strategy and position play.
JohnPT said:
So anyone ready for another 1 tournament in 10years called "Yet Another World Invitational Championship in Rotation?"
John Barton
New member
Snap9 said:
I disagree that straight pool is a better test of skill than 9 ball. Both games have their intricacies and neither is inherently better.
If one does accept that straight pool is a better test of skill then I submit that one pocket is even better still. As far as pocket billiard games go one pocket is the truest combination of boxing and chess that exists. Even moreso than snooker in my opinion. Neither straight pool nor 9/10 ball requires the all around skills that one pocket does, in my opinion.
John Barton
New member
JohnPT said:it was mentioned Hohmann could spot Dennis 200 in a race to 500. by your assumption he is therefore the more skilled overall player right? 200 is a big spot so he shouldnt have trouble spotting Dennis the 8 in 10 ball and a few games on the wire in 8ball.
14.1 absolutely is able to determine who the more skilled player is ... at 14.1.
Thorsten Hohmann will go broke spotting Dennis Orcullo 200 points to 500. I can guarantee you that IF Thorsten wins a game then whatever he did to win it will be absorbed by Dennis like a sponge and put back on Thorsten in subsequent games.
I will bet every penny I can on Dennis to win more games out of ten than Thorsten with this spot.
Straight pool is not that difficult for a professional caliber player. Just because a top nine ball player doesn't play the game very often does not mean that they cannot play it. In fact it makes them a little dangerous as they are likely to go for and make shots that a traditional straight pool player won't shoot. There is a reason Archer made 200 points to win the straight pool division of an all around that he played in. And this with only a week's practice beforehand. He is a world beater.
If anyone can Thorsten to play this game I will bet everything I can lay my hands on and everything I can borrow. I love Thorsten's game and his demeanor and professionallism but he absolutely can not win spotting Dennis 200 points to 500. Not if they play more than a few games.
John Barton said:
Well, I guess that kills that game. Thanks John.
No worries mate. They weren't about to play anyway. But next time, please just say it's a tough game, but you'll take a chance and make a bet.
D
Danny Harriman
Guest
I disagree that 9 ball is as solid of game as 14.1, when you compare the two games together - well you simply cannot. For yrs. I have been going to these 9 ball tournaments and watching the top players argue with each other about the rack. There bickering over the corner ball and if the rack is too high or if they can't make the wing ball which is a huge problem in 9 ball and always has been. This makes the players look awful, and as far as helping market the game it's even worse, I would be willing to bet that anyone who entertains the thought that 9 ball is as competant of a game as 14.1 can't run 100 balls on a Diamond table with 50 tries. But everyone is an authority and entitled to there opinion, I enjoy all the games although I do prefer 10 ball over nine as the better player wins more often. Simply stated Straight Pool favors a classier more well rounded player, I think the best game out there is One Pocket but either one of these discplines makes 9 ball look aqwuard and even repulsive. Plus in 9 ball who ever racks the balls has complete control over the match, in 14.1 there is no way to put the rack on your opponent. I don't think that back in the days of Willie Masconi that the players were arguing about the rack, it's also an easier game to watch on TV. Call me old fashioned but I don't care for this new look where the players turn there hats sideways and wear their pants around their knee's, this type of player gets weeded out and does not like 14.1 Ahh IMAGINE THAT.
Sincerely, Danny Harriman (The Springfield Rifle)
Sincerely, Danny Harriman (The Springfield Rifle)
Dead on Danny H. and it was nice meeting you, and watching you shoot at D&D Biliards in PA.!
I look at the argument from a different angle. The games that are the most popular with the LARGEST group of players in any given era (years ago 14.1/billiards before that!) will be the Tourney game at that given time(today 9ball). It is NOT always the BEST game (9ball), or the one that the top tier players prefer to play (10ball/1pocket). All us bangers who play badly yet spend the most money buying tickets/cues/tables/natural cures
are the ones that determine what games are played. EVERYONE shows up to watch the US Open/WPC etc.....sadly how many pack the Arena to watch 1pocket? bummer huh?!
In short, It's two different arguments of what game is the best test, and what is popular at that time.
Gerry
I look at the argument from a different angle. The games that are the most popular with the LARGEST group of players in any given era (years ago 14.1/billiards before that!) will be the Tourney game at that given time(today 9ball). It is NOT always the BEST game (9ball), or the one that the top tier players prefer to play (10ball/1pocket). All us bangers who play badly yet spend the most money buying tickets/cues/tables/natural cures
are the ones that determine what games are played. EVERYONE shows up to watch the US Open/WPC etc.....sadly how many pack the Arena to watch 1pocket? bummer huh?!In short, It's two different arguments of what game is the best test, and what is popular at that time.
Gerry