USBTC Professional or not?

All the tables should be open

Figure an acceptable green fee like we do here in the Western BCA, charge it and have fun. Nothing is sadder to look at than 100 tables empty and cold with no one practicing. Go down to Vegas to the BCA nationals if you want to know what I mean.

Oh wait, there is one thing sadder. It's watching world class pool players playing nine ball on a PPV stream with 3 or 4 stripes on the table. Or warming up with two cue balls on the table. That is one sad sight indeed.
 
champ2107 said:
i was just trying to show there is always two sides to a dispute. Stevie was getting verbally assaulted with no defense. I would do the same thing for you. However you came in and tried to bottom line the thread and say this is how it is and was. I did not do that.I like your stories jay, but you and some others are not the "be all end all" if that's what you think. I am not afraid to give my opinion even if it turns out to be wrong and even if i stand alone and even if its against you or Dr Links or anyone else on this board.
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You're a little too self conscious. I NEVER said I had all the answers, just offered my opinion on what happened. Sorry if you didn't understand that. I also never attacked you or anyone else, but maybe you misunderstood that too.

By the way I've often taken the side of players on here, but perhaps you missed those threads. I'm an advocate for pool, not any one side. I have a word of advice for you though. When you take a position and refuse to budge, you can get stuck! You would be wise to listen to alternate points of view without getting upset about it. You might learn something. Of course saying this may upset you as well. I'll take that chance.

P.S. Stevie is welcome to come on here and offer his two cents anytime. Sometimes silence speaks volumes as well. I will bet he knows about this thread.
 
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First let me say Stevie certainly over reacted to the situation. No doubt about it!!

What I don't understand if I have the facts right is why Mark, Justin, Ric, and now Jay (since he put his 2 cents in calling people assholes and fools) have not addressed what caused this situation to arise in the first place. Let's review. Stevie had no concerns about paying to play on the non streaming tables so they are not an issue at all. So what happened on the streaming table. Stevie played in the tourney last year and the management of the tourney decided to make the streaming table open. Stevie had no say in that at all. It was a management decision. Why would Stevie ever think that he was somebody special since that was just the rule. Stevie comes to the tourney this year and is asked to play on the streaming table and it is open just like last year. The next time Stevie is asked to play on the streaming table it is for the hot seat. Stevie is pumped to the max. He lost to Shane in the finals of the 9 ball Championship in Derby City. He wants to even the score like any of us would. The one thing he is sure of is that the streaming table is open. No one has told him that management changed the rules after he played on the streaming table the first time. He goes out to get ready to do battle with Shane with nothing but beating Shane on his mind. And BAM!!!! He is told he needs to have tokens to practice since the table is NOT OPEN!! Might this not cause any of us to go on tilt?? This whole situation was caused by poor management changing the rules after the tourney had started and lack of communication with the players of that change.

Then management starts a thread saying how poorly Stevie acted without even a comment about their responsibility for screwing up by changing the streaming table rules after Stevie had played on it. What BS!!

I end my comments with saying again Stevie certainly over reacted to the situation but he was not the cause of the situation.
 
BasementDweller said:
I actually think Stevie has an argument here. Although, it doesn't sound like he handled it very well.

What exactly does a professional pool player get out of being streamed? I suppose their sponsors appreciate the visibility, but I'm talking about the player himself.

I think players the caliber of SVB, Stevie Moore, and Bustamante, just to name a few, deserve some small level of appreciation for playing on a stream. After all, they do help bring in more viewers don't they? Now, I don't think it's always the case that the players need to be compensated. I think the size and the scope of the tournament should be considered.

I think a small token of the streamer's appreciation could be having the streaming table open for play (if this is at all possible). It seems like the players are getting nickel and dimed when they have to put coins in after every rack. It doesn't sound like Stevie was looking for a pay day or anything. Or even an "appearance fee". He probably just feels like he is being taken advantage of and I sort of understand that position.
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the sense of entitlement is what turns everyone off when it comes to pro pool...
 
jay helfert said:
You're a little too self conscious. I NEVER said I had all the answers, just offered my opinion on what happened. Sorry if you didn't understand that. I also never attacked you or anyone else, but maybe you misunderstood that too.

By the way I've often taken the side of players on here, but perhaps you missed those threads. I'm an advocate for pool, not any one side. I have a word of advice for you though. When you take a position and refuse to budge, you can get stuck! You would be wise to listen to alternate points of view to yours without getting upset about it. You might learn something. Of course saying this to you may upset you as well. I'll take that chance.

P.S. Stevie is welcome to come on here and offer his two cents anytime. Sometimes silence speaks volumes as well. I will bet he knows about this thread.
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I too just offered my opinions in this thread on what happened that you or others may have misunderstood. I just showed some possible points that may have led to this situation, I'm sorry if you or others misunderstood that. I did not get stuck on anything, even as hard as some tried to get me stuck, I just gave you a different view of the situation through my eyes.

If I see something that I believe is directed at me, sometimes I will call that person out. As much as you guys think, I'm not backing Stevie, just trying to show something maybe from his point of view before "ALL OF YOU HANG HIM" Now maybe you learn something from this post and hope you don't take it personal, and if you do, I guess that's your issue to deal with.
 
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abie10 said:
the sense of entitlement is what turns everyone off when it comes to pro pool...
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There is no pro pool or pro players anymore in north america, haven't you read this thread? All players want to be treated equal, a B league player wants to be treat as an equal to a pro! According to this thread there is no benefit at all to be a pro, they cant win with the guys on this board, everyone on here is a genius, a better person and the second coming of mosconi.
 
Murdoch7627 said:
First let me say Stevie certainly over reacted to the situation. No doubt about it!!

What I don't understand if I have the facts right is why Mark, Justin, Ric, and now Jay (since he put his 2 cents in calling people assholes and fools) have not addressed what caused this situation to arise in the first place. Let's review. Stevie had no concerns about paying to play on the non streaming tables so they are not an issue at all. So what happened on the streaming table. Stevie played in the tourney last year and the management of the tourney decided to make the streaming table open. Stevie had no say in that at all. It was a management decision. Why would Stevie ever think that he was somebody special since that was just the rule. Stevie comes to the tourney this year and is asked to play on the streaming table and it is open just like last year. The next time Stevie is asked to play on the streaming table it is for the hot seat. Stevie is pumped to the max. He lost to Shane in the finals of the 9 ball Championship in Derby City. He wants to even the score like any of us would. The one thing he is sure of is that the streaming table is open. No one has told him that management changed the rules after he played on the streaming table the first time. He goes out to get ready to do battle with Shane with nothing but beating Shane on his mind. And BAM!!!! He is told he needs to have tokens to practice since the table is NOT OPEN!! Might this not cause any of us to go on tilt?? This whole situation was caused by poor management changing the rules after the tourney had started and lack of communication with the players of that change.

Then management starts a thread saying how poorly Stevie acted without even a comment about their responsibility for screwing up by changing the streaming table rules after Stevie had played on it. What BS!!

I end my comments with saying again Stevie certainly over reacted to the situation but he was not the cause of the situation.
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I dont know that the tables were open last year. I just dont remember. Some years it has been closed some years it has been open at various times. I have been at every USBTC that has been streamed because I'm the guy that streamed them. If I don't know for sure what year and exact tournament they were open I am suspect of any statements of fact one way or the other unless that person had first hand knowledge and a frame of reference for the exact time period.

Stevie said the table was has been open every year at one point in his rant. I know that is not the case. Is it possible it was open every previous time he played on it? Certainly is. I think having the streaming table open is a discussion that should be had. I have already stated what I think and believe it or not its the same side as Stevie. The reasons behind that stance are different but I do think it should be free. I also know that I dont care enough about the issue to threaten quitting my job over it or showing my ass in public.
 
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champ2107 said:
There is no pro pool or pro players anymore in north america, haven't you read this thread? All players want to be treated equal, a B league player wants to be treat as an equal to a pro! According to this thread there is no benefit at all to be a pro, they cant win with the guys on this board, everyone on here is a genius, a better person and the second coming of mosconi.
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The people on this board have put more money in pro players pockets than any other group of people on the planet. You want to know when pro players are really truly screwed? Its when people here stop caring altogether about anything pro related.

You as much stated you took the counterpoint just to do it. Then cried foul when the majority didnt go your way. Now comes the standard "You guys suck. I'm going home" No one dogpiled Stevie. I know for a fact if he comes here tells his side of the story and acts professional most will give him the benefit of the doubt...but some will go toe to toe with him and thats what most pro's dont like.
 
champ2107 said:
There is no pro pool or pro players anymore in north america, haven't you read this thread? All players want to be treated equal, a B league player wants to be treat as an equal to a pro! According to this thread there is no benefit at all to be a pro, they cant win with the guys on this board, everyone on here is a genius, a better person and the second coming of mosconi.
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The pros cannot survive without the amateurs. That being the case, they need to play by the same rules as the amateurs. The "benefit" of being a pro is that you are a heavy favorite to take the money down at the tournament.

Also, just because some of us think Stevie acted like a fool does not mean we think we are "the second coming of Mosconi". Try not to be too dramatic about it.
 
JCIN said:
The people on this board have put more money in pro players pockets than any other group of people on the planet. You want to know when pro players are really truly screwed? Its when people here stop caring altogether about anything pro related.

You as much stated you took the counterpoint just to do it. Then cried foul when the majority didnt go your way. Now comes the standard "You guys suck. I'm going home" No one dogpiled Stevie. I know for a fact if he comes here tells his side of the story and acts professional most will give him the benefit of the doubt...but some will go toe to toe with him and thats what most pro's dont like.
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I didn't cry? I gave my points and did not push them on you. I just put them out there. You guys are pushing! You are right about here comes the standard, I could tell it was soon going to turn to the normal AZ personal attack, which is why i repeatedly said, "I am not trying to make this personal" Pool has been around a lot longer than Az has, and I not going to talk money because I have no idea what anyone contributes, donates, makes in the pool world. When I'm talking about this board, I'm generalizing and being specific, unless I call a certain person out.
 
champ2107 said:
I didn't cry? I gave my points and did not push them on you. I just put them out there. You guys are pushing! You are right about here comes the standard, I could tell it was soon going to turn to the normal AZ personal attack, which is why i repeatedly said, "I am not trying to make this personal" Pool has been around a lot longer than Az has, and I not going to talk money because I have no idea what anyone contributes, donates, makes in the pool world. When I'm talking about this board, I'm generalizing and being specific, unless I call a certain person out.
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Who turned this into a personal attack against you? NOBODY!
 
easy-e said:
The pros cannot survive without the amateurs. That being the case, they need to play by the same rules as the amateurs. The "benefit" of being a pro is that you are a heavy favorite to take the money down at the tournament.

Also, just because some of us think Stevie acted like a fool does not mean we think we are "the second coming of Mosconi". Try not to be too dramatic about it.
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So why were the amateurs not shown on the $ppv table$ and it was only pro's? explain this to me.
 
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champ2107 said:
So why were the amateurs not shown on the $ppv table$ and it was only pro's?
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Some were. What's your point?

Let's suppose that ZERO amateurs were shown... How many amateurs do you think bought the stream? The people with the money are the people who need to be happy. Give the people what they want. Stop proving all of my points!!
 
The second coming of Mosconi ,this sh*t is great!!!

Beats the hell out of the new Two and a Half Men.

Where's Charlie we need some tiger blood
 
your telling me all players should be treated equal and yet the pro's are used on the ppv table to generate $$$$ for the tournament. How is that fair?
 
champ2107 said:
your telling me all players should be treated equal and yet the pro's are used on the ppv table to generate $$$$ for the tournament. How is that fair?
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Because if they don't do it that way, they make no money. THEY ARE THE ONES MAKING THE MONEY IN THE TOURNAMENT, NOT THE AMATEURS! They are being payed to play! The people with the money makes the rules, in this game, that is the amateur players.
 
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