Using outside english
- Thread starter jed1894
- Start date
I think this thread would be of interest to you...jed1894 said:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=88014
In general I tend to use a bit of outside when cinching most cut shots. Sometimes I use a lot of outside. Sometimes I just roll the CB w/o outside. It depends on the cut angle and the condition of the balls. The stickier the balls, the more I tend to shoot the shots with "helper english".
Last edited:
Fool 4 Pool
Registered
Jed, 1/2 tip of outside english at medium speed is my preferred way of playing a cut shot of 20 degrees or more, and just medium speed for less than 20 degrees. The 20 is approximate. This is pretty much my standard way of pocketing cuts, unless I need different position after the shot. If that's the case, then adjustments are needed to pocket the ball and get the position.
F4P
F4P
stevea said:
Yeah, 8 shots out of 10, position play is going to dictate your use of english, so this point is going to be moot. I NEVER use outside english when I need to use inside or center to get position. I ALWAYS use outside english when I need to use outside english to get position.
If I'm using a nearly level cue and not hitting a rail during the shot, meaning side spin will have little effect, then yes, I do tend to use a small amount of outside english. But this applies to relatively few shots. I use at least one rail to get position on most shots, and when I don't, it's usually because I'm dead straight (so there's no such thing as "outside" english).
-Andrew
First and foremost, use the english you need that is the highest % to pocket the ball AND get to where you're going.
If there are multiple routes to your next shot, your highest probability to make a shot on an unknown table is to use a little outside. A hair of outside english helps prevent skidding when balls may not be perfectly clean. If it weren't for the specter of dirty balls - the answer would more than likely be center.
For me, I always assume the table is crooked and the balls are dirty on every single shot. I pocket every ball with speed (not HARD - just with "speed", i.e. not slow-rolling) and use outside english if I can get there w/ that english (assuming center or inside isn't a huge advantage to get to where I'm going).
Hope that makes sense.
EDIT: You should be able to make any typical shot with any english. Play the %.
If there are multiple routes to your next shot, your highest probability to make a shot on an unknown table is to use a little outside. A hair of outside english helps prevent skidding when balls may not be perfectly clean. If it weren't for the specter of dirty balls - the answer would more than likely be center.
For me, I always assume the table is crooked and the balls are dirty on every single shot. I pocket every ball with speed (not HARD - just with "speed", i.e. not slow-rolling) and use outside english if I can get there w/ that english (assuming center or inside isn't a huge advantage to get to where I'm going).
Hope that makes sense.
EDIT: You should be able to make any typical shot with any english. Play the %.
Last edited:
Don't forget Rempe. Puts a hair of outside on the 9 to avoid skids.cubc said:never ever. Using outside english or helping english pffft. What does Earl Strickland or Efren Reyes or Mike Sigel know.. pfft amateurs. Cant believe they play with that type of english
Then you have Parica who advocates punching the 9 with a center ball hit.
Never roll it, he said.
outside English
Check it out.
Regards,
Dave
FYI, I address this issue pretty well here:jed1894 said:
Check it out.
Regards,
Dave
dr_dave said:
So, do you know you've arrived as a pool geek when you can address any pool-related question by linking to an article you've already written?
Not sure if I've said this yet, but I'm glad you're posting on here now, Dave.
-Andrew
I don't use running english per say....But...for whatever reason I seem to like to use a touch of draw on medium cut shots.
I can't really explain the science behind it, but I feel like it gets a cleaner roll on the OB...I think it cuts down on potentail cling and skid.
However...for really thin cut shots I like to use a "touch" of top to make sure I have a (very smooth) rolling CB when it makes contact with the OB ball....seems like the smoother I stroke a super thin cut shot...the cleaner the cut.
I can't really explain the science behind it, but I feel like it gets a cleaner roll on the OB...I think it cuts down on potentail cling and skid.
However...for really thin cut shots I like to use a "touch" of top to make sure I have a (very smooth) rolling CB when it makes contact with the OB ball....seems like the smoother I stroke a super thin cut shot...the cleaner the cut.
pool geek links
I know some people probably get annoyed by my frequent linking. I just don't like reinventing the wheel, so if I know the answer to a question already exists somewhere (on my site or elsewhere), I prefer linking to it rather than regurgitating or paraphrasing.
Regards,
Dave
PS: BTW, thanks for the nice comments.
I admit it ... I am a pool geek.Andrew Manning said:So, do you know you've arrived as a pool geek when you can address any pool-related question by linking to an article you've already written?
Not sure if I've said this yet, but I'm glad you're posting on here now, Dave.
-Andrew
I know some people probably get annoyed by my frequent linking. I just don't like reinventing the wheel, so if I know the answer to a question already exists somewhere (on my site or elsewhere), I prefer linking to it rather than regurgitating or paraphrasing.
Regards,
Dave
PS: BTW, thanks for the nice comments.
Using outside spin on cut shots can be a good idea if:
1. You don't need some other kind of spin for position on the next shot.
2. The shot is short and at least medium speed so squirve doesn't complicate aiming.
3. You know just how much outside spin to add (not too much or too little).
4. You don't get into the habit of using outside spin on cut shots.
In my estimation these conditions eliminate the vast majority of cut shots.
"Spinning it in the hole" doesn't describe what happens. "Eliminating throw" is a better description.
pj
chgo
1. You don't need some other kind of spin for position on the next shot.
2. The shot is short and at least medium speed so squirve doesn't complicate aiming.
3. You know just how much outside spin to add (not too much or too little).
4. You don't get into the habit of using outside spin on cut shots.
In my estimation these conditions eliminate the vast majority of cut shots.
"Spinning it in the hole" doesn't describe what happens. "Eliminating throw" is a better description.
pj
chgo
Last edited:
here's a post i made recently in another thread:
obviously you don't want to be using extreme outside english on all shots and trying to slow roll and spin them in, but a bit of english is a good thing imo. it's what pool's all about.
obviously you don't want to be using extreme outside english on all shots and trying to slow roll and spin them in, but a bit of english is a good thing imo. it's what pool's all about.
Lately I've been moving to the conclusion that the proper way depends....jed1894 said:
It's usually impossible to plan a run-out using only outside english, as has already been mentioned. You might have "english freedom" on 20% of your shots. If you're not going to hit a cushion or just barely bounce off a cushion, your side spin doesn't matter, so you are free to use what you will. If you have very good speed control and pattern planning, you might use the cushion on less than half your shots.
The main up-side in using outside english is that it eliminates throw and skid which come from ball-ball friction at the point of contact between the cue ball and object ball. With those eliminated, you are not at the mercy of changing frictional conditions on the shot.
The problem with using this "smooth rolling across the object ball's surface" technique is that it requires a lot of skill and experience to get right. The amount of outside required depends on the cut angle, the distance to the ball, and the amount of draw/follow. As has been pointed out by Dr. Dave, Ron Shepard and others, if you get it wrong by a little the shot can go wrong by a lot.
I think the main factor is on skids. This is also called "cling" and in snooker-playing regions "kick." I think the best name for it is "bad contact." In any case, it seems to be due to chalk at the contact point of cue ball on object ball and it causes large amounts of throw. Some players don't even realize that skid exists and think that when people complain about getting a skid/kick/cling/bad contact they are just trying to make excuses. Skids can happen on maybe 1 shot in 50 to 500 depending on conditions and the sort of shots taken.
So, where is this all going? If a player just flat out misses 30% of the shots he shoots at, he's got no reason to take special, complicated precautions to avoid a 1% problem. At that level he should be working on bringing his stick straight through the middle of the cue ball with maybe a little follow or draw. Nice and smooth and not too hard. Such a player has only a dim notion of squirt, swerve and throw, and probably no knowledge of skid.
On the other hand, if you're Rempe or Sigel or Hohmann, and on a good day you miss only one time in 200 shots attempted, you can't afford to have the object ball skidding off randomly one time in 100.
So the bottom line is that whether you should try to use outside english on the fraction of shots that allow the freedom to use it may well depend on how well you play.
Bob Jewett said:
Absolutely. Great post!
Personally, I use SLIGHT outside even when not using rail contact for shape just to guarantee that I don't accidentally put inside on it.
And "roger that" re: chalk mark throw. Koehler writes that chalk marks can cause up to 11 degree throw deviations!!!
And here's a tip re: OB contact point selection when NOT using outside for CIT cancelation.
Create a mental contact point at the line of centers directed toward the POINT of the pocket on the "thin side".
That point is, of course, thru the center of the OB.
Aim a point at the TOP center of the CB at that point. My recent experiments seem to show that that contact point ideally compensates for CIT without the use of outside english.
I use that as a "second opinion" to my standard aiming technique and I STILL use...oh...1/8 of a tip radius offset to the outside for the reason stated above.
NOTE: As is true with all such visualizations, individuals have widely varying abilities to visually place a fictitious spot on either the CB/OB...and KEEP it there!!!
Tests show that I have a much better visual than auditory memory and possibly, that translates to the above.
Regards,
Jim