Using Top for Rail Shots vs Position Play

[JMASTERJ]

I was watching a tor video and saw the tip on using top to make the ball "stick" to the rail.... is that something all good players use?

Then I had a question on what if someone needed to hit that rail shot but putting top on it would leave the ball in a "highly" undesirable location, or even scratch? What would they do, just try to hit it a lot softer (would that still work then?) or put draw and make it a lower percentage make?

 

[Shooter32]

I try to make the ball and get position, so what ever english is needed to put the cue ball where I need it . Not as easy to make the rail shot but makes the next shot easier if you pull it off .

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[Skippy27]

I was watching a tor video and saw the tip on using top to make the ball "stick" to the rail.... is that something all good players use?

Then I had a question on what if someone needed to hit that rail shot but putting top on it would leave the ball in a "highly" undesirable location, or even scratch? What would they do, just try to hit it a lot softer (would that still work then?) or put draw and make it a lower percentage make?

Are you talking about walking a ball down the rail?

Sticking the cue to the short rail with "overspin"?

Here is the thing about top.... you cannot spin it forward faster than natural roll. So if the speed and the distance of the shot means the cue will be naturally rolling then you don't need to do anything special.

However, if you need the cue to keep spinning forward after contact or get it rolling forward faster than the shot would allow you would apply top.

Rail shots can be made with side spin as well to help control speed.

 

[JMASTERJ]

I try to make the ball and get position, so what ever english is needed to put the cue ball where I need it . Not as easy to make the rail shot but makes the next shot easier if you pull it off .

So this means you just have to hit a more accurate shot/less margin for error and play for position?

Are you talking about walking a ball down the rail?

Sticking the cue to the short rail with "overspin"?

Here is the thing about top.... you cannot spin it forward faster than natural roll. So if the speed and the distance of the shot means the cue will be naturally rolling then you don't need to do anything special.

However, if you need the cue to keep spinning forward after contact or get it rolling forward faster than the shot would allow you would apply top.

Rail shots can be made with side spin as well to help control speed.

I am unfamiliar with the "walk" terminology, he was just saying in the video that you have a much better chance of making the rail shots if u add top as I said.

Someone just last week told me about putting side spin for rail shots, but not sure how that "controls speed" because I thought speed has mostly to do with cue striking speed and much less to do with spin imparted. I guess this is a whole another thing I am learning.

 

[JohnnyOzone]

He's talking about when you have a ball near a pocket and you are hitting it relatively full. If cue ball is far away from the object ball and you want to keep the cue ball near the rail after pocketing the ball, you can hit it hard with max topspin so it bends back into the rail - as opposed to hitting the shot really soft and hoping the table does not roll off on you.

to answer to OP's question, yes this is a great shot to learn and master. It's not too difficult and comes up a fair amount.

It's also important to learn the " draw drag" shot for similar situations where you want the effect of shooting real easy but you don't trust the table to roll straight

 

[garczar]

He's talking about when you have a ball near a pocket and you are hitting it relatively full. If cue ball is far away from the object ball and you want to keep the cue ball near the rail after pocketing the ball, you can hit it hard with max topspin so it bends back into the rail - as opposed to hitting the shot really soft and hoping the table does not roll off on you.

to answer to OP's question, yes this is a great shot to learn and master. It's not too difficult and comes up a fair amount.

It's also important to learn the " draw drag" shot for similar situations where you want the effect of shooting real easy but you don't trust the table to roll straight

You referring to Tor's tip? If you so its not what you're describing. He's talking about shooting a frozen ball down the rail with follow. Doing so makes object ball hug the rail. It works.

 

[Scott Lee]

No, that's not the effect. You hit all frozen rail shots very slightly rail first. That causes the CB to "rub" across the face of the OB, making it appear to 'hug the rail'. This effect happens whether you hit the CB with spin or not.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

He's talking about shooting a frozen ball down the rail with follow. Doing so makes object ball hug the rail. It works.

 

[JMASTERJ]

It's also important to learn the " draw drag" shot for similar situations where you want the effect of shooting real easy but you don't trust the table to roll straight

Draw drag? Is that basically shooting with higher speed but because of the draw the cue slows down just before the strike when it grips the table?

No, that's not the effect. You hit all frozen rail shots very slightly rail first. That causes the CB to "rub" across the face of the OB, making it appear to 'hug the rail'. This effect happens whether you hit the CB with spin or not.

I heard this also... so if you barely miss the target ball and hit rail first, does that automatically take care of the angle to hole the target? I mean, that would literally take any guesswork out of the picture and huge the rail, would be spectacular, cant be that simple, is it?

 

[JohnnyOzone]

Draw drag? Is that basically shooting with higher speed but because of the draw the cue slows down just before the strike when it grips the table?

Yes, but cue ball slows down well before contact with object ball

I heard this also... so if you barely miss the target ball and hit rail first, does that automatically take care of the angle to hole the target? I mean, that would literally take any guesswork out of the picture and huge the rail, would be spectacular, cant be that simple, is it?

Apologize for my first response - I thought you were talking about the cue ball staying on the rail.

I have always found that inside english will help keep the object ball to stay on the rail
(it probably also helps you to his barely rail first as well)
Robert Byrne explains this very well in both print and video

 

[JMASTERJ]

Draw drag? Is that basically shooting with higher speed but because of the draw the cue slows down just before the strike when it grips the table?

Yes, but cue ball slows down well before contact with object ball

Apologize for my first response - I thought you were talking about the cue ball staying on the rail.

I have always found that inside english will help keep the object ball to stay on the rail
(it probably also helps you to his barely rail first as well)
Robert Byrne explains this very well in both print and video

Watching his 1.5hr thing now in bits, is that the video you are referring to? Not much else I can find from him, nothing related to just rail shots. Lots of good stuff so far in his practice routine tips.

I've heard that inside english thing too to keep the target ball more on the rail, thats why I was asking about the Tor video's top spin to achieve the same effect, so I think it depends on the angle? If its a finer tougher cut, then side spin, if its a more direct hit, topspin?

The best approach, imo, is planning ahead. Wherever possible position the cue ball off other shots so the rail shot will give you a good leave when you get to it. I also try to use earlier shots in the rack to try to send the cue ball into a ball frozen to the rail to get it better positioned off the rail. These are not always options and sometimes you just need to work with the possibility of a difficult leave but forethought helps in these situations. When I'm examining the table after the break looking for trouble balls I always take note of these shots just as I would clusters.

Outside English can also be used to throw these shots toward the pocket, as well as heavy inside English if you're at a steep angle.

I am still trying to figure out how the cue comes off the rail from a frozen target ball. In yesterdays match, I had a couple of touch shots where I had such a shot, target frozen, and I needed to position the cue for the next ball which wasn't easy. I had a couple of these, and I tried aggressive top and draw, and I felt like the ball just didn't much. Thinking back, I think it would have had more "action" if I put no spin, but then it would have left the cue in a dicey position for the next shot. Seems like a whole practice session on this alone is in effect.

So the type of spin you put DOES depend on how much angle you need to cut for the shot? So it not that inside or top is ALWAYS the way to make the target stick to the rail more into the pocket?

 

[greyghost]

Draw drag? Is that basically shooting with higher speed but because of the draw the cue slows down just before the strike when it grips the table?

Watching his 1.5hr thing now in bits, is that the video you are referring to? Not much else I can find from him, nothing related to just rail shots. Lots of good stuff so far in his practice routine tips.

I've heard that inside english thing too to keep the target ball more on the rail, thats why I was asking about the Tor video's top spin to achieve the same effect, so I think it depends on the angle? If its a finer tougher cut, then side spin, if its a more direct hit, topspin



I am still trying to figure out how the cue comes off the rail from a frozen target ball. In yesterdays match, I had a couple of touch shots where I had such a shot, target frozen, and I needed to position the cue for the next ball which wasn't easy. I had a couple of these, and I tried aggressive top and draw, and I felt like the ball just didn't much. Thinking back, I think it would have had more "action" if I put no spin, but then it would have left the cue in a dicey position for the next shot. Seems like a whole practice session on this alone is in effect.

So the type of spin you put DOES depend on how much angle you need to cut for the shot? So it not that inside or top is ALWAYS the way to make the target stick to the rail more into the pocket?

you asked many questions...most of which can only be answered situationally.

to your last one it depends greatly on how the shooter aims and applies the stroke.

be more accurate and learn center ball

practice it



High right...Low Left,
-Greyghost

 

[JohnnyOzone]

Watching his 1.5hr thing now in bits, is that the video you are referring to? Not much else I can find from him, nothing related to just rail shots. Lots of good stuff so far in his practice routine tips.

I've heard that inside english thing too to keep the target ball more on the rail, thats why I was asking about the Tor video's top spin to achieve the same effect, so I think it depends on the angle? If its a finer tougher cut, then side spin, if its a more direct hit, topspin?

Byrne's Standard Book of Pool and Billiards Volumes I & II; Byrne's Standard Video of Pool Vol II

Probably not on youtube or free site- you may have to pay for them or you may know someone who has them

VERY HIGHLY RECOMMENDED

 

[Poolplaya9]

I am still trying to figure out how the cue comes off the rail from a frozen target ball.

It sounds like you are a very beginner player just as we all once were. Start looking around Dr. Dave's site. Literally just about everything you could ever want to know about pool is explained there well and accurately and often with diagrams and video too. It is without doubt the most comprehensive accurate source of pool information anywhere and by quite a large margin:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/

Also half the pool information and "tips" you will receive from random people whether in person or on here is going to be at least partially incorrect, even some of it coming from good players, industry insiders or manufacturers, and even a bit from pros and pool instructors on occasion too. The amount of misinformation that is believed and passed on by people in pool is shocking so keep that in mind and take most things with a grain of salt until you can confirm them with a reliable source such as Dr. Dave, Bob Jewett, or Mike Page to name several. Of course the worse the player the worse the misinformation will tend to be but it might be best to take it all with a grain of salt until you can confirm it.

The most important thing you could do right now is to concentrate on having good form and a good stroke which includes a solid stance and bridge, making sure your stroke is relaxed and smooth with good follow through, that you are staying down on the shot, etc. See Dr. Dave's site for more detail.

When it comes to position play the first thing you need to learn is the concept of the tangent line and how it works. See Dr. Dave's site for any questions you might have. But that knowledge is then of little use if you are not proficient with stop shops. This is by far the most important shot in pool because again it is like a foundation for much that follows. Start practicing being able to do perfect stop shots at all speeds for all distances.

Especially as a beginner it may help to start thinking in terms of left and right english as being for rails, and top and bottom english being for everything inside the rails. For typical play with a level cue left/right english have essentially no effect on the path of the cue ball either while it is rolling or after it hits an object ball. It does however have a substantial effect when the cue ball hits a rail.

Top and bottom english are for "bending" the path of the cue ball after it has contacted an object ball or rail and is moving in open space. While they can have some minor effect on the actual initial rebound angle from the rail it is negligible in comparison to left/right english. So a simple way of thinking about it at least right now is that left and right english is for rails and top and bottom english is for open space/the bed of the table.

When an object ball is frozen or near frozen to a rail you can use left/right english to effect the angle the cue ball rebounds from the rail, or top and bottom to effect its path after it leaves the rail (which happens near immediately on many shots), or a combination of both. What combinations to use will only come with experience. In general the steeper the cut angle (the more perpendicular the cue ball is going into the rail) the more effect left/right english will have and the more you will depend on that. The straighter the shot the more you can effect the cue ball's path with top/bottom english as well.

One thing to keep in mind for object balls frozen or nearly frozen to the rail that some player's don't realize and that I rarely see discussed is that for the exact same hit on the cue ball you will can get a different cue ball reaction and path based on whether you hit the object ball a fraction of a second first, or the rail a fraction of a second first. You will get the most cue ball action (especially from the left/right english) when you hit the object ball a fraction of a second first or at the same time as the cushion. When you hit the cushion a fraction of a second first the cue ball tends to more closely follow the tangent line on the shot and much of the cue ball action you had planned is often lost.

 

[formidableone14]

This shot can be made with any english once you have developed the ability to pocket the ball in the first place. Follow, draw whatever english you want/need, you just have to develop it.

I personally find myself drawing off a frozen ball on the rail over any other english, but my position play is horrible so....


GL!

 

[Prince H]

Are you talking about walking a ball down the rail?


Here is the thing about top.... you cannot spin it forward faster than natural roll. .

I have heard this before but always been a bit skeptical. Has this been confirmed anywhere?

 

[Prince H]

I was watching a tor video and saw the tip on using top to make the ball "stick" to the rail.... is that something all good players use?

Then I had a question on what if someone needed to hit that rail shot but putting top on it would leave the ball in a "highly" undesirable location, or even scratch? What would they do, just try to hit it a lot softer (would that still work then?) or put draw and make it a lower percentage make?

Might be some confusion happening in the responses... in the first sentence do you want to "stick" the object ball to the rail or the cue ball?

 

[Poolplaya9]

I have heard this before but always been a bit skeptical. Has this been confirmed anywhere?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WzyxhCl0vs

 

[Scott Lee]

Prince H...Still skeptical (after viewing Mike Page's video explanation)? Any competent instructor knows this physics factor, and can demonstrate it immediately.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I have heard this before but always been a bit skeptical. Has this been confirmed anywhere?

 

[Cardigan Kid]

You referring to Tor's tip? If you so its not what you're describing. He's talking about shooting a frozen ball down the rail with follow. Doing so makes object ball hug the rail. It works.

Here's the video and you are correct....

https://youtu.be/KgMS7MaFlXc


Tor specifically says "hit the object ball and rail at the same time with follow"...And yes it does work very nicely.
Just last night, I was practicing 6 diamond distance from pocket frozen rail shots with cue ball at angle....the top spin works very nice.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Here's the video and you are correct....

https://youtu.be/KgMS7MaFlXc


Tor specifically says "hit the object ball and rail at the same time with follow"...And yes it does work very nicely.
Just last night, I was practicing 6 diamond distance from pocket frozen rail shots with cue ball at angle....the top spin works very nice.

How can you be sure that you are not aiming in your normal way to make the ball and taking contact-induced throw subconsciously into account and hitting the cushion first?