Video: Cowboy Jimmy Moore aiming system?

[BC21]

Go find a video of Robb Saez. He aims his shots the same way. I line up left and pivot right for cuts to the left and the opposite for right cuts. Works great with only 1 or 2 lines for almost all shots except very thin cuts

These are reference lines, then you sweep onto what looks correct for the shot line, based on your experience.
An actual defined pivot would need a stationary pivot point, not a free floating pivot point based on experience.

Nearly every player sweeps their cue onto the shot line. I wouldn't call this a pivot.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Any time you offset your cue and pivot into center ball, it's a pivot aiming system, 100%. Whether it's CTE, 90/90, shishkebob or some hybrid of those three, that's exactly what it is. Otherwise, you always miss the shot. You need the visual alignment (eye positioning) perfect for offset and pivot-to-center systems to work. If someone devs this naturally, their eye positioning is exactly what these systems prescribe, or they'd miss, always.

Conversely, when you lock your cue into center ball with traditional ghost ball aiming and then pivot to your english position, that's backhand english.

If someone manually pivots from one side, just like I did in the video Mirza posted, you can't tell what system they're doing unless they tell you. For example, using CTE while presented with a thick left cut, the shooter's would offset to the right and pivot towards the pocket to the left (traditionally). However, some shooters such as myself find right to left pivots put them in an unnatural orientation with their cue. You can adjust for this by pivoting beyond center to the far-left edge of the CB and pay close attention to the cue's angle into the face of the CB. The cue makes an "X" with the CTEL. For all shots falling within that classification, you align to the CB with that same "X" angle and essentially "back-pivot" to center ball. Otherwise, a user who hates right to left pivots for CTE can merely shoot 90-90 because it's a half-ball left to right pivot on the exact same shot. When shooting the same angled shot to the right, the player uses CTE to ensure they have a left to right pivot.

So in conclusion, CTE allows you to always pivot from the same side if you wish and keep a consistent visual alignment. However, you must incorporate a heavily angled cue in your preset. Otherwise, using CTE in one direction and 90-90 / shishkebob in the other direction is fine. There's nothing wrong with hybrid visualizations if you hate pivoting towards the direction of your bridge hand (the more unnatural direction as it moves your back arm away from your body).

People can say what they want about Jimmy Moore and that's fine because he's dead now and there's no way to pull him back from the grave, like Howerton did with me. He is 100% using manual CTE in that video. I posted this exact video clip many, many years ago and the comments were the mostly the same. People didn't really know the mechanics of what they were looking at. I get it. People play really well traditionally and their minds are programmed to think how they view the game.... target/spot shooting and alignment. Someone even said in this thread that Jimmy had a terrible habit and his talent made up for it. There's nothing terrible about what he's doing in this video and in fact, it's very advanced.

If you watch the very early videos of Jimmy Moore playing, he shot with a straight cue. Sometime around the period where televisions went from B&W to color, Jimmy Moore became friends with Fez Kassem (spelling??) around the Albuquerque region. Fez was also very good friends with Ralph Greenleaf who was also traveling the country with financially backed by....Hal Houle. It's this period of time that Jimmy Moore incorporated his pivot aiming technique. Any videos of Jimmy from around this period, included the video cited in this thread, clearly show Jimmy pivoting into center ball from both sides of the CB in order to pocket the OB.

Spidey

 

[BC21]

Any time you offset your cue and pivot into center ball, it's a pivot aiming system, 100%. Whether it's CTE, 90/90, shishkebob or some hybrid of those three, that's exactly what it is. Otherwise, you always miss the shot. You need the visual alignment (eye positioning) perfect for offset and pivot-to-center systems to work. If someone devs this naturally, their eye positioning is exactly what these systems prescribe, or they'd miss, always.

Conversely, when you lock your cue into center ball with traditional ghost ball aiming and then pivot to your english position, that's backhand english.

If someone manually pivots from one side, just like I did in the video Mirza posted, you can't tell what system they're doing unless they tell you. For example, using CTE while presented with a thick left cut, the shooter's would offset to the right and pivot towards the pocket to the left (traditionally). However, some shooters such as myself find right to left pivots put them in an unnatural orientation with their cue. You can adjust for this by pivoting beyond center to the far-left edge of the CB and pay close attention to the cue's angle into the face of the CB. The cue makes an "X" with the CTEL. For all shots falling within that classification, you align to the CB with that same "X" angle and essentially "back-pivot" to center ball. Otherwise, a user who hates right to left pivots for CTE can merely shoot 90-90 because it's a half-ball left to right pivot on the exact same shot. When shooting the same angled shot to the right, the player uses CTE to ensure they have a left to right pivot.

So in conclusion, CTE allows you to always pivot from the same side if you wish and keep a consistent visual alignment. However, you must incorporate a heavily angled cue in your preset. Otherwise, using CTE in one direction and 90-90 / shishkebob in the other direction is fine. There's nothing wrong with hybrid visualizations if you hate pivoting towards the direction of your bridge hand (the more unnatural direction as it moves your back arm away from your body).

People can say what they want about Jimmy Moore and that's fine because he's dead now and there's no way to pull him back from the grave, like Howerton did with me. He is 100% using manual CTE in that video. I posted this exact video clip many, many years ago and the comments were the mostly the same. People didn't really know the mechanics of what they were looking at. I get it. People play really well traditionally and their minds are programmed to think how they view the game.... target/spot shooting and alignment. Someone even said in this thread that Jimmy had a terrible habit and his talent made up for it. There's nothing terrible about what he's doing in this video and in fact, it's very advanced.

If you watch the very early videos of Jimmy Moore playing, he shot with a straight cue. Sometime around the period where televisions went from B&W to color, Jimmy Moore became friends with Fez Kassem (spelling??) around the Albuquerque region. Fez was also very good friends with Ralph Greenleaf who was also traveling the country with financially backed by....Hal Houle. It's this period of time that Jimmy Moore incorporated his pivot aiming technique. Any videos of Jimmy from around this period, included the video cited in this thread, clearly show Jimmy pivoting into center ball from both sides of the CB in order to pocket the OB.

Spidey

Wecome back. Interesting comments, good info. Sparked me into doing a little reading on Cowboy Jimmy Moore. At 19, only 6 months into a long life of playing pool, he won the Michigan State Billiards Championship. Won it three more years in a row after that. So he was a very strong player years before he supposedly starting using a pivot system.

It seems to be a commonality among the best CTE players, that they were already great or very good before CTE. I'd say it's because they've already developed a good feel or a good eye for recognizing the shot line, and what CTE provided was a consistent PSR. From this PSR they can easily incorporate their shooting experience and make it work. They could make any pre-alignment method work because they already know where the shot line is, pivot or no pivot. Newbies don't have have this benefit/luxury of experienced knowledge, so they find themselves trying to arrive at an unknown solution by means of pivot point guesswork through tons of practice until they finally get it working somewhat consistently. It's rote.

 

[cookie man]

Wecome back. Interesting comments, good info. Sparked me into doing a little reading on Cowboy Jimmy Moore. At 19, only 6 months into a long life of playing pool, he won the Michigan State Billiards Championship. Won it three more years in a row after that. So he was a very strong player years before he supposedly starting using a pivot system.

It seems to be a commonality among the best CTE players, that they were already great or very good before CTE. I'd say it's because they've already developed a good feel or a good eye for recognizing the shot line, and what CTE provided was a consistent PSR. From this PSR they can easily incorporate their shooting experience and make it work. They could make any pre-alignment method work because they already know where the shot line is, pivot or no pivot. Newbies don't have have this benefit/luxury of experienced knowledge, so they find themselves trying to arrive at an unknown solution by means of pivot point guesswork through tons of practice until they finally get it working somewhat consistently. It's rote.

You act like CTE and rote don't go together.
And you guys act like champions don't ever learn new things,lol.

 

[cookie man]

Loose playing style. Waggle. He plays by feel. He is not using his cue in any systematic manner to line up the shot. He had a very wonky stroke, sort of swiping at the cb on every shot, which tells me he did things his way, not traditional, not systematic, just stepped up and did it as naturally as seeing it. I bet he could play golf also, and was probably pretty good at it.

An old buddy of mine named Larry Neudecker (Baltimore Red) plays the same way, as if the cue is just another limb attached to his body. It doesn't matter how it is held or moved or whatever....all that matters is that it ends up striking the cb where it needs to, and he's so in tune with it that it's as simple as reaching out with a hand and pushing a button with his index finger. He doesn't have to look at the cue to know where it is pointed in reference to the shot. He, probably like Moore used to do, just feels it, much in the same way a tennis player knows without a doubt that the racquet is on the correct line and at the correct angle to hit the ball just right to send it over the net to where they want it to go. They know it by feel, not by looking at the racquet while they are stepping into the shot and swinging.

So you just can't bring yourself to say that CTE might be involved,lol. That's very telling and interesting.
Found your WAGGLE by the way
https://www.facebook.com/Promyim007...STEwMDAwMDU1Njc4MzMwOTozMDg5MjE0MjE3NzczNzc0/

 

[BC21]

You act like CTE and rote don't go together.
And you guys act like champions don't ever learn new things,lol.

I act like it? Lol. I believe it is rote.

 

[BC21]

So you just can't bring yourself to say that CTE might be involved,lol. That's very telling and interesting.
Found your WAGGLE by the way
https://www.facebook.com/Promyim007...STEwMDAwMDU1Njc4MzMwOTozMDg5MjE0MjE3NzczNzc0/

Wow! That's some funny stuff! :grin:

Moore could've been doing exactly what you and Spider said. Probably so. But not when he was 19. So, like you, Jimmy Moore was already a good player when he started that funky pivoting. I believe the consistent setup with the visuals provides a solid PSR, which is always beneficial. It's not the only way of building good and consistent visuals in a PSR, but if it works for you and others, then go for it. It's all about improving.
That makes me think of something...too long to post, but I might do it anyway.

 

[bbb]

Any time you offset your cue and pivot into center ball, it's a pivot aiming system, 100%. Whether it's CTE, 90/90, shishkebob or some hybrid of those three, that's exactly what it is. Otherwise, you always miss the shot. You need the visual alignment (eye positioning) perfect for offset and pivot-to-center systems to work. If someone devs this naturally, their eye positioning is exactly what these systems prescribe, or they'd miss, always.

Conversely, when you lock your cue into center ball with traditional ghost ball aiming and then pivot to your english position, that's backhand english.

If someone manually pivots from one side, just like I did in the video Mirza posted, you can't tell what system they're doing unless they tell you. For example, using CTE while presented with a thick left cut, the shooter's would offset to the right and pivot towards the pocket to the left (traditionally). However, some shooters such as myself find right to left pivots put them in an unnatural orientation with their cue. You can adjust for this by pivoting beyond center to the far-left edge of the CB and pay close attention to the cue's angle into the face of the CB. The cue makes an "X" with the CTEL. For all shots falling within that classification, you align to the CB with that same "X" angle and essentially "back-pivot" to center ball. Otherwise, a user who hates right to left pivots for CTE can merely shoot 90-90 because it's a half-ball left to right pivot on the exact same shot. When shooting the same angled shot to the right, the player uses CTE to ensure they have a left to right pivot.

So in conclusion, CTE allows you to always pivot from the same side if you wish and keep a consistent visual alignment. However, you must incorporate a heavily angled cue in your preset. Otherwise, using CTE in one direction and 90-90 / shishkebob in the other direction is fine. There's nothing wrong with hybrid visualizations if you hate pivoting towards the direction of your bridge hand (the more unnatural direction as it moves your back arm away from your body).

People can say what they want about Jimmy Moore and that's fine because he's dead now and there's no way to pull him back from the grave, like Howerton did with me. He is 100% using manual CTE in that video. I posted this exact video clip many, many years ago and the comments were the mostly the same. People didn't really know the mechanics of what they were looking at. I get it. People play really well traditionally and their minds are programmed to think how they view the game.... target/spot shooting and alignment. Someone even said in this thread that Jimmy had a terrible habit and his talent made up for it. There's nothing terrible about what he's doing in this video and in fact, it's very advanced.

If you watch the very early videos of Jimmy Moore playing, he shot with a straight cue. Sometime around the period where televisions went from B&W to color, Jimmy Moore became friends with Fez Kassem (spelling??) around the Albuquerque region. Fez was also very good friends with Ralph Greenleaf who was also traveling the country with financially backed by....Hal Houle. It's this period of time that Jimmy Moore incorporated his pivot aiming technique. Any videos of Jimmy from around this period, included the video cited in this thread, clearly show Jimmy pivoting into center ball from both sides of the CB in order to pocket the OB.

Spidey

Hi spidey
Welcome back
Larry

 

[BC21]

Sorry for the book length post.....

Learning to play pool is very much like learning to read, as far as the process goes. In order to become a reader you must first learn and practice the fundamentals (beginning with the alphabet, what each letter looks like and how it's pronounced). Then you begin to group letters into words, then eventually you know enough words to be able to look at a sentence and comprehend something other than just a bunch of characters arranged in a line. The quality of your results is a product of the quality of your experience, the quality of the knowledge you've gained through practice and repetition.

When playing pool we first learn fundamentals (stance, grip, bridge, stroke, the basics about where the cb needs to hit the ob in order to pocket it, etc...) We practice these things, learning english and angles and how the balls roll. All of these things comprise our "alphabet" of pool knowledge. Some players even make up their own alphabet and do just fine. Anyway, we practice this stuff over and over until we are able to step up and look at a cb and ob and know how to hit it so that the ob goes to the pocket and the cb goes to where we want it to go. The quality of our results is dependent on the quality of our experience and acquired knowledge.

Now, take someone who knows the alphabet but has never learned to read, never learned enough words to be able to read an entire sentence without struggling through every word. You will need to stand by them with a dictionary and/or correct them along the way with every sentence they practice. Eventually they'll be able to piece the words together on their own, making it through entire passages with less and less guesswork.

Compare this to a fluent reader who is trying to learn how to speed read entire sentences/lines with a single glance of the eyes instead of reading one word at a time.
There are several methods one can use for learning how to speed read, but you have to already be a very good reader in order to benefit from any of these methods. You must recognize the words, know the result/solution of a group of words in order to gather meaning through a simple glance. A less skilled reader will not be able to learn speed reading without tons of extra practice because they lack the vocabulary and acquired knowledge needed to recognize every word they see, especially from only a quick glance.

This is similar to a fluent/good pool player when it comes to aiming pool shots. They already know the solution (the shot line) as soon as they see the cb-ob relationship. This is due to experience and acquired knowledge. Any aiming method that involves sweeping or pivoting the cue to the shot line will be easier for them to incorporate because they already know the result/solution, not because the system provides the solution. In other words, they make the system fit the result they need based on their experience/knowledge. Less skilled players have to experiment with bridge placements and pivot points trying to arrive at a solution that works. After enough trial and error, it'll eventually "work itself out" as explained here, http://www.billiardsthegame.com/offset-and-pivot-aiming-systems-395.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Sorry for the book length post.....

Learning to play pool is very much like learning to read, as far as the process goes. In order to become a reader you must first learn and practice the fundamentals (beginning with the alphabet, what each letter looks like and how it's pronounced). Then you begin to group letters into words, then eventually you know enough words to be able to look at a sentence and comprehend something other than just a bunch of characters arranged in a line. The quality of your results is a product of the quality of your experience, the quality of the knowledge you've gained through practice and repetition.

When playing pool we first learn fundamentals (stance, grip, bridge, stroke, the basics about where the cb needs to hit the ob in order to pocket it, etc...) We practice these things, learning english and angles and how the balls roll. All of these things comprise our "alphabet" of pool knowledge. Some players even make up their own alphabet and do just fine. Anyway, we practice this stuff over and over until we are able to step up and look at a cb and ob and know how to hit it so that the ob goes to the pocket and the cb goes to where we want it to go. The quality of our results is dependent on the quality of our experience and acquired knowledge.

Now, take someone who knows the alphabet but has never learned to read, never learned enough words to be able to read an entire sentence without struggling through every word. You will need to stand by them with a dictionary and/or correct them along the way with every sentence they practice. Eventually they'll be able to piece the words together on their own, making it through entire passages with less and less guesswork.

Compare this to a fluent reader who is trying to learn how to speed read entire sentences/lines with a single glance of the eyes instead of reading one word at a time.
There are several methods one can use for learning how to speed read, but you have to already be a very good reader in order to benefit from any of these methods. You must recognize the words, know the result/solution of a group of words in order to gather meaning through a simple glance. A less skilled reader will not be able to learn speed reading without tons of extra practice because they lack the vocabulary and acquired knowledge needed to recognize every word they see, especially from only a quick glance.

This is similar to a fluent/good pool player when it comes to aiming pool shots. They already know the solution (the shot line) as soon as they see the cb-ob relationship. This is due to experience and acquired knowledge. Any aiming method that involves sweeping or pivoting the cue to the shot line will be easier for them to incorporate because they already know the result/solution, not because the system provides the solution. In other words, they make the system fit the result they need based on their experience/knowledge. Less skilled players have to experiment with bridge placements and pivot points trying to arrive at a solution that works. After enough trial and error, it'll eventually "work itself out" as explained here, http://www.billiardsthegame.com/offset-and-pivot-aiming-systems-395.

Yup.
And some can pretend they are doing this and that, they can be pointing their arce to the moon before shooting but when in time to shoot they already know the approach line to the OB. Corey Deuel even showed this in one video when he and John Schmidt were talking about aiming systems .

 

[luckylager]

At 10:56 in the video, Allen Hopkins says, "Look at the way he aims." While viewing, I get the feeling that Hopkins knows something about the technique Moore is using and is about to go a little more in depth about it. But that added commentary never materializes. What is clear is that Hopkins is referring to it as aiming.

 

[canwin]

Any time you offset your cue and pivot into center ball, it's a pivot aiming system, 100%. Whether it's CTE, 90/90, shishkebob or some hybrid of those three, that's exactly what it is. Otherwise, you always miss the shot. You need the visual alignment (eye positioning) perfect for offset and pivot-to-center systems to work. If someone devs this naturally, their eye positioning is exactly what these systems prescribe, or they'd miss, always.

Conversely, when you lock your cue into center ball with traditional ghost ball aiming and then pivot to your english position, that's backhand english.

If someone manually pivots from one side, just like I did in the video Mirza posted, you can't tell what system they're doing unless they tell you. For example, using CTE while presented with a thick left cut, the shooter's would offset to the right and pivot towards the pocket to the left (traditionally). However, some shooters such as myself find right to left pivots put them in an unnatural orientation with their cue. You can adjust for this by pivoting beyond center to the far-left edge of the CB and pay close attention to the cue's angle into the face of the CB. The cue makes an "X" with the CTEL. For all shots falling within that classification, you align to the CB with that same "X" angle and essentially "back-pivot" to center ball. Otherwise, a user who hates right to left pivots for CTE can merely shoot 90-90 because it's a half-ball left to right pivot on the exact same shot. When shooting the same angled shot to the right, the player uses CTE to ensure they have a left to right pivot.

So in conclusion, CTE allows you to always pivot from the same side if you wish and keep a consistent visual alignment. However, you must incorporate a heavily angled cue in your preset. Otherwise, using CTE in one direction and 90-90 / shishkebob in the other direction is fine. There's nothing wrong with hybrid visualizations if you hate pivoting towards the direction of your bridge hand (the more unnatural direction as it moves your back arm away from your body).

People can say what they want about Jimmy Moore and that's fine because he's dead now and there's no way to pull him back from the grave, like Howerton did with me. He is 100% using manual CTE in that video. I posted this exact video clip many, many years ago and the comments were the mostly the same. People didn't really know the mechanics of what they were looking at. I get it. People play really well traditionally and their minds are programmed to think how they view the game.... target/spot shooting and alignment. Someone even said in this thread that Jimmy had a terrible habit and his talent made up for it. There's nothing terrible about what he's doing in this video and in fact, it's very advanced.

If you watch the very early videos of Jimmy Moore playing, he shot with a straight cue. Sometime around the period where televisions went from B&W to color, Jimmy Moore became friends with Fez Kassem (spelling??) around the Albuquerque region. Fez was also very good friends with Ralph Greenleaf who was also traveling the country with financially backed by....Hal Houle. It's this period of time that Jimmy Moore incorporated his pivot aiming technique. Any videos of Jimmy from around this period, included the video cited in this thread, clearly show Jimmy pivoting into center ball from both sides of the CB in order to pocket the OB.

Spidey

It's funny when you try to sound intelligent like you know what you are talking about makes sense much less is the truth of the matter. Jimmy sums it up perfectly in his interview pt. 2 at 1min 39 secs til 1min 49 sec

 

[BC21]

It's funny when you try to sound intelligent like you know what you are talking about makes sense much less is the truth of the matter. Jimmy sums it up perfectly in his interview pt. 2 at 1min 39 secs til 1min 49 sec

I've seen that. Great interview! I think there are 5 or 6 segments.

 

[PeterBruce]

Yes, it's called the half ball pivot. There was a group in the old days that all used it. Jimmy Moore, Greanleaf, Fez Cassum i believe, and of course Hal . Really not worth discussing at this point as it's been discussed numerous times. Believe what you want to believe.

Agreed! it's half ball pivot

 

[canwin]

Agreed! it's half ball pivot

No offense, but I believe that only a blithering country bumpkin would believe such bunkum to use Jimmy Moore and Fez as an example.

 

[canwin]

Agreed! it's half ball pivot

No offense, but I believe that only a blithering country bumpkin would believe such bunkum using the names of Jimmy and Fez as an example

 

[canwin]

... ... ...

 

[canwin]

... ... ...

 

[deraltefritz]

Yup.
And some can pretend they are doing this and that, they can be pointing their arce to the moon before shooting but when in time to shoot they already know the approach line to the OB. Corey Deuel even showed this in one video when he and John Schmidt were talking about aiming systems .

Do you have a link to that video, by any chance? Thanks.

 

[anbukev]

Discussion starts at 24:10. Enjoy!


https://youtu.be/u8KsVm9ePlk