Was Ralph Greenleaf the GOAT?

In another thread about Greenleaf here is my favorite quote submitted by pt109.

Willie Mosconi was questioned about who was better in an interview years ago.
...he said “I will only say this...they say every time I beat him, he was drunk...
...but every time he beat me, he was drunk also.”
 
PhilosopherKing said:
Only if by Harold Worst, you mean Efren Reyes.

Sorry to rain on the nostalgia parade, but when did Efren become chopped-liver?

Without all the video documentation, Efren would be spoken of with Paul Bunyan 50 years from now.
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I agree. The man held the world in awe, for 25 yrs. Beat everyone in just about every game.
Probably never be a player, that plays all games at a world class level. They pick and choose.
You could say Willie could have played 9 ball or 1 pocket as good as Efren, but he didn't.
You could say Efren could have played straight pool as good as Willie, but he didn't.
So with that being said, it still goes to Efren imo. He had a mind and an understanding of the table, unlike any that has ever lived, with the exception of maybe Worst. He was such a brief anomaly though, I can't see how he can really be in the race.
 
De420MadHatter said:
I agree. The man held the world in awe, for 25 yrs. Beat everyone in just about every game.
Probably never be a player, that plays all games at a world class level.
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Nick Varner played at least four games at a world class level, and was a champion at each: 14.1, 9-ball, 1-pocket, and banks.

With each in their prime, I would make Varner the favorite over Reyes at 14.1, 9-ball, and banks.
 
ideologist said:
When asked if he was better than Greenleaf, Willie Mosconi said he was. The difference was that Greenleaf was a master of "two foot position" while Mosconi perfected "one foot position"

Seeing some of the videos from yesteryear, I am inclined to agree with Willie
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What is the "two foot" and "one foot" positions?
 
sjm said:
I have discussed this with Charlie Ursitti, who was Mosconi's manager. Statistically, Charlie offered, Mosconi produced more one inning games than Greenleaf, but he also offered that Greenleaf had more games of two innings or less than Willie. I've met more than a few over the years who watched both play, and it's nearly too close to call, but the feeling is that Mosconi had a very small edge. Noone who thinks Greenleaf was the greatest ever is out of line, however.

Players of Greenleaf's era are largely forgotten. Believe it or not, there was a woman straight pooler whose speed was about the same as that of Jean Balukas. Her name was Ruth McGinnis and Irvng Crane told me that she beat Greenleaf on more than one occasion in exhibition matches and that the two of them toured together. If my memory serves, her high run on a 5 x 10 was in the 130's, a pretty tidy accomplishment that few women who've ever played pool could hope to approach.

Greenleaf or Mosconi? McGinnis or Balukas? These are very hard comparisons for anyone to make.

... but it's still fun to try.

PS Ruth's 130 on a 5 x 10 has no confirmation, but she did run 125 in competition on a 9 footer and an 85 on a ten footer according to her writeup on the BCA HOF page.
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In World straight pool tournaments, Joe Procita still owns the high run on a 5'x10' table. (182 balls)!
 
sjm said:
Thanks for that, Bob. As noted, my offering was second hand --- she's simply before my time.

Ruth has always been something of a mystery to me. I recall hearing about her 125 ball run but per Irving Crane she ran more than that away from competition. Even if she did, it's the 125 that counts for posterity.

Based on the info you've provided, she obviously was a true great.

Thanks for the education.
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Ruth McGinnis was the real deal:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ruth-mcginnis-queen-billiards-180968563/

In 3C, Masako Katsura back in the 50's, was no joke either.

Lou Figueroa
 
Buster8001 said:
Hey, Jay; where would you put Harold Worst & Don Willis in that list?
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Harold Worst and Efren Reyes are the two best pool players I've seen play in my lifetime. They were both masters of any pool game they played and in Harold's case that extended to Three Cushions (World Champ at 24!) and Snooker (only Chenier was willing to challenge him).

Don Willis was a great all around hustler. He beat world champions at Table Tennis and Horseshoes, and the best pool players did not want to gamble with him. In his prime only Lassiter and George Rood were thought to be in his class at 9-Ball. I never heard of him playing any other game. So he is very limited in that respect as a pool player. Rood and Lassiter were both great 14.1 players as well.
 
jay helfert said:
Harold Worst and Efren Reyes are the two best pool players I've seen play in my lifetime. They were both masters of any pool game they played and in Harold's case that extended to Three Cushions (World Champ at 24!) and Snooker (only Chenier was willing to challenge him).

Don Willis was a great all around hustler. He beat world champions at Table Tennis and Horseshoes, and the best pool players did not want to gamble with him. In his prime only Lassiter and George Rood were thought to be in his class at 9-Ball. I never heard of him playing any other game. So he is very limited in that respect as a pool player. Rood and Lassiter were both great 14.1 players as well.
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Thanks, Jay. Always enjoy your insights.
 
The story I always thought was cool was the one where Ralph got picked up for vagrancy or public intoxication,and talked the right shit to a guard along the lines of "hey I'm Ralph Greenleaf a world famous pool player,take me to the table across the street and I'll prove it".

The guard somehow knew how to get into the place across the street,so he takes Ralph over there.

The only house cue available had no tip on it,but he still ran a 134 with a ball in hand break shot on his first try,and got himself out of jail :grin:. Tommy D.
 
Tommy-D said:
The story I always thought was cool was the one where Ralph got picked up for vagrancy or public intoxication,and talked the right shit to a guard along the lines of "hey I'm Ralph Greenleaf a world famous pool player,take me to the table across the street and I'll prove it".

The guard somehow knew how to get into the place across the street,so he takes Ralph over there.

The only house cue available had no tip on it,but he still ran a 134 with a ball in hand break shot on his first try,and got himself out of jail :grin:. Tommy D.
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That actually happened about 40miles from me in Okmulgee,Ok. To get out of jail he ran 87 balls in the poolroom across from the jail. What i'd like to know is how the hell he ended up in Okmulgee. He turned up awol for a match in NYC, fell off the wagon(one of many times i guess) and wound up in Okmulgee. This was 1935 so that's a crazy-ass long road trip by anybody's standard.
 
lfigueroa said:
Ruth McGinnis was the real deal:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ruth-mcginnis-queen-billiards-180968563/

In 3C, Masako Katsura back in the 50's, was no joke either.

Lou Figueroa
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Great stuff, Lou. Thanks for sharing.

Ruth is deserving of a spot on women's pool's Mount Rushmore with Jean, Allison and Karen (although Siming Chen and Han Yu both threaten to knock one or two of them off before they are done).

I'd always heard a lot about Ruth, but never knew much about how great she really was until you and Bob Jewett helped out in this thread. Yes, I knew she really wowed Irving Crane, but he's the only guy I ever knew who spoke of watching Ruth in her prime.

No discussion of the all-time women's greats in pool is complete without a mention of Ruth. Now we all know!
 
I hung around an old pool room in Los Angeles where many players were in their 60's and 70's while I was 18 yrs old. To a person they all said Ralph Greenleaf was the man. Most of his matches were on 5X10 tables and of course there were many great players mentioned earlier who did beat him. Not unlike Shane, Efren and others losing. But pool is not measured by loses but by wins over the long haul. We get stuck sometimes comparing past vs present in all areas of life and sports. But, RG stands tall in our sport. I am anxiously awaiting the biography due to come out soon on RG's life and pool skills.
 
ChrisinNC said:
I couldn't help but note all the talc on that table - it looked awful! You would think for a world championship, the ref / racker calling the shots could brush the table every few racks? Funny, the things that I notice, as a poolroom owner, that most watching wouldn't think twice about.
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Most places had no airconditioning....many rooms closed for the summer.
 
garczar said:
That actually happened about 40miles from me in Okmulgee,Ok. To get out of jail he ran 87 balls in the poolroom across from the jail. What i'd like to know is how the hell he ended up in Okmulgee. He turned up awol for a match in NYC, fell off the wagon(one of many times i guess) and wound up in Okmulgee. This was 1935 so that's a crazy-ass long road trip by anybody's standard.
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I think Hayden Lingo was from that neck of the woods. He was the man who invented the game of One Pocket and was the master of the game. Maybe Ralph went looking for him. It's possible.
 
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jay helfert said:
I think Hayden Van Lingo was from that neck of the woods. He was the man who invented the game of One Pocket and was the master of the game. Maybe Ralph went looking for him. It's possible.
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Now these are good stories . Thanks guys keep them coming !!!!
 
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