Ok. If the situation allows it, you may only want to make a legal hit. Maybe a better question is is the z angle doable at higher speeds where only legal contact is desired?
I won't have access to 9 footers until the all clear.
Was the Z-SHOT Efren’s Best Option?
- Thread starter dr_dave
- Start date
I won't have access to 9 footers until the all clear.
It was the best option to also pocket the ball.
Over and over again, Efren's knowledge to play kicks in a fashion to have the most positive outcome is just shocking, in hindsight. He hits them hard when needed, softly when needed, in the most beneficial angles
Over and over again, Efren's knowledge to play kicks in a fashion to have the most positive outcome is just shocking, in hindsight. He hits them hard when needed, softly when needed, in the most beneficial angles
Are you saying he shouldn't have pocketed the ball?
I'm not sure more speed was an option with the ball layout Efren faced (due to the 6 ball cutting off the angle required).
I won't have access to 9 footers until the all clear.
If you do test out your theories at some point, please report back with your results.
Agreed. In a desperate situation like this, pocketing the ball is a great outcome!
But even Efren knew this outcome was extremely lucky. Listen to his interview excerpts here:
It's not like he lucked it in off 5 other moving balls, though. It was unlikely, but it couldn't possibly be pocketed with any other kick. He gave himself the best chance to pocket it, and luckily, it happened to go in.
I pocketed it with two different one-rail kicks in the video, and one can also make it with the other (non-Z-shot) two-rail kick I showed. Check them out in the video:
With the draw-bend 1-rail kick I showed first, it was very easy to get the hit, and not too difficult to pocket the ball.
I still think it is much easier to get a hit and pocket the ball with the 1-rail draw-bend kick since Efren's Z shot was so unnatural due to the 6 taking away the natural Z shot path. Give the shots a try yourself and I suspect you will agree.
Regardless, Efren made the match-winning shot. Concerning Efren, that's all that really matters.
Good video. Efren supposedly was so good he couldn't get a game for a few years and played 3 cushion billiards for several years. If I hadn't seen him kick at balls at such a high level I'm not sure I would believe that story but the results speak for themselves.
For the rest of us the Z shot probably wasn't the best. I've seen Efren do it in other less high profile matches. For him it's a viable shot.
For the rest of us the Z shot probably wasn't the best. I've seen Efren do it in other less high profile matches. For him it's a viable shot.
Saying that since pocketing the ball is so unlikely, the shot is better taken on its merits - getting to a legal hit in this instance. More speed wasn't much of an option in Efren's case but I'm considering situations where the shot in all its approximate glory would be the appropriate choice.Are you saying he shouldn't have pocketed the ball?
I'm not sure more speed was an option with the ball layout Efren faced (due to the 6 ball cutting off the angle required).
If you do test out your theories at some point, please report back with your results.
I imagine I'll be shooting Zs soon enough - just not on a 9 footer. Multiple rail shots often don't correlate well between different sized tables.
I like the mirror image of the shot if I was shooting. Using the rail closest to the 6 avoids the possibility hitting the 7, natural angle to the second diamond above the corner is on a line to the center of the short rail.
If going for the pot, I would shoot the 2 rails using draw and touch of left going into the rail closest to the 6. Gives a flatter angle off the second rail but its a sell out shot if you miss.
Also the 3 rails is natural to the center short rail going short rail first. The 7 is close to the third rail line e but would probably clear.
The way Efren went about it allowed him to use enough speed to have separation after contact.
If going for the pot, I would shoot the 2 rails using draw and touch of left going into the rail closest to the 6. Gives a flatter angle off the second rail but its a sell out shot if you miss.
Also the 3 rails is natural to the center short rail going short rail first. The 7 is close to the third rail line e but would probably clear.
The way Efren went about it allowed him to use enough speed to have separation after contact.
This is the type of input that exemplifies what I spoke of earlier: comsidering options that aren't actually possible adds negative value.
If the main goal is to get a hit and not foul, the bending one-rail kick is by far the best option, probably for anybody (even Efren). Any speed can be used and it is not difficult to get a semi-accurate hit on the OB.
I thought about including these shot in the video, and I actually tried each of them a few times during filming, but it didn't seem worth the effort to spend much time on them since the level of difficulty seemed too high compared to the shot options I did end up including.
This could be a journal for billiard students.
What do they learn faster? Is that part of a Billiard Exam?
Mastering Pro level shots, to me it looks like a fun learning game.
The ultimate test be to do an uncut take on each shot.
Great video DrDave very inspiring
We have some things sort of like this in the BU Exams.
That could be a fun Challenge, seeing how many unedited and consecutive attempts it takes to get a good hit (and/or make the ball) with each shot option. This could also be applied to any of the shot collections in the videos here:
or here:
Thanks. This one was a lot of fun to both film and produce.
Yup. I've gotten away with draw bent kicks scores of times.
Great question! I think this question is very important because if the Z-kick offered the kind of separation that the bend kick offered, it changes the percentages a little.Ok. If the situation allows it, you may only want to make a legal hit. Maybe a better question is is the z angle doable at higher speeds where only legal contact is desired?
I won't have access to 9 footers until the all clear.
Dr Dave has concluded that the kick isn't practical at high speed because of the position of the six, but I think there is a second important disincentive to consider. Specifically, hitting the kick very hard may cause it to shorten off the first rail, modifying the basic geometry of the kick. For that reason, I feel that, whether the six is limiting your options or not, I don't feel the high speed Z-kick, even if deemed available, is advisable here because it's just too difficult to judge the angle of approach.
Per the situation, Efren shot the winner. (what else right?) I will guess he let it loose as a one pocket shot although unlike a one hole situation, he would've been cooked if it hung. Umm 50/50 to him? lol. Presuming he knows ball action to a tee, it's a high percentage two way.(?) again lol...
It was obviously as you said, the best shot for Efren at the moment! I take anything that Efren says in an interview after a win with a huge pinch of salt so I'll stick to what he did.
Several weeks ago I noticed I had let something sneak into my game. When a ball was really tough to hit, I focused on getting a good hit. And then what? Well, then nothing. I wasn't considering doing anything but getting a good hit. Which brings us back to Efren's shot and Dave's alternatives. There is a chance I would try the one rail and bend the ball, a lot depending on the exact placement of balls and how much interference there was. I would probably be more likely to go down to the near end rail and go for the shot up and down the table. With that small angle if a person doesn't add unintentional side spin I think the odds of hitting the five are quite good. Unless it is a table you know very well like Dave's own table, you probably need to hit the ball medium speed, which gives about equal chances of a safety and selling out somewhere so after my efforts my odds of making a good hit on a strange table might be around fifty-fifty. Selling out after making that good hit are around fifty percent again so that back rail that is kinda tempting probably sells out about seventy-five percent of the time!
The other shots carry the same risks, most have a fairly high chance of selling out even if you get a good hit. This particular shot was made under the TV lights so you are essentially playing on a heated table too, something that makes perfect touch a little harder! Efren's shot didn't have a much higher risk of missing the object ball than other options, lets assume for him 65% of a sell out with other choices, 75% with the choice he took. Now we get a look at the second set of odds, chances of pocketing the ball and staying at the table or at least playing safe.
I didn't watch the longer videos to be sure but in Dave's cuts I never heard the five ball declared frozen, never saw a ref look, so it wasn't. An important consideration, if Efren hit the five and moved it at all it would have to be called a legal shot. Equally importantly, of all of the options considered, Efren's has the best chance of pocketing the five. Every shot offered a pretty high chance of selling out either by not hitting the five or giving your opponent a shot on the five and an easy out. Efren's shot was by far the best aggressive shot, ignoring the jump which he rarely tries. I don't think he could have gotten over the six. Not that hard for someone that jumps a lot, for somebody that doesn't, that six is a big obstacle.
So, given hours for Dave to play with possibilities and myself the better part of an hour to work with probabilities, I think Efren took the best shot not just for himself but for anyone playing near his level, the top couple dozen in the world. Odds are I would have sold out, I stink at Z banking and would probably never have considered what he did. However, had I seen the shot, it would have been the best shot for me too, for most of us. Granted I guesstimated percentages but it comes down to if the safety and pocketing a ball are equally hard, try to pocket the ball. That five by the rail was very big the way Efren shot, also a consideration. He took a shot that minimized giving up ball in hand and maximized his chances of pocketing the five even if they were probably well under 50-50.
As it seems like always, Efren maximized his chances for good things to happen, from a legal hit to pocketing a ball. He gave himself a chance to win, other options made not turning over the table extremely remote.
Hu
Several weeks ago I noticed I had let something sneak into my game. When a ball was really tough to hit, I focused on getting a good hit. And then what? Well, then nothing. I wasn't considering doing anything but getting a good hit. Which brings us back to Efren's shot and Dave's alternatives. There is a chance I would try the one rail and bend the ball, a lot depending on the exact placement of balls and how much interference there was. I would probably be more likely to go down to the near end rail and go for the shot up and down the table. With that small angle if a person doesn't add unintentional side spin I think the odds of hitting the five are quite good. Unless it is a table you know very well like Dave's own table, you probably need to hit the ball medium speed, which gives about equal chances of a safety and selling out somewhere so after my efforts my odds of making a good hit on a strange table might be around fifty-fifty. Selling out after making that good hit are around fifty percent again so that back rail that is kinda tempting probably sells out about seventy-five percent of the time!
The other shots carry the same risks, most have a fairly high chance of selling out even if you get a good hit. This particular shot was made under the TV lights so you are essentially playing on a heated table too, something that makes perfect touch a little harder! Efren's shot didn't have a much higher risk of missing the object ball than other options, lets assume for him 65% of a sell out with other choices, 75% with the choice he took. Now we get a look at the second set of odds, chances of pocketing the ball and staying at the table or at least playing safe.
I didn't watch the longer videos to be sure but in Dave's cuts I never heard the five ball declared frozen, never saw a ref look, so it wasn't. An important consideration, if Efren hit the five and moved it at all it would have to be called a legal shot. Equally importantly, of all of the options considered, Efren's has the best chance of pocketing the five. Every shot offered a pretty high chance of selling out either by not hitting the five or giving your opponent a shot on the five and an easy out. Efren's shot was by far the best aggressive shot, ignoring the jump which he rarely tries. I don't think he could have gotten over the six. Not that hard for someone that jumps a lot, for somebody that doesn't, that six is a big obstacle.
So, given hours for Dave to play with possibilities and myself the better part of an hour to work with probabilities, I think Efren took the best shot not just for himself but for anyone playing near his level, the top couple dozen in the world. Odds are I would have sold out, I stink at Z banking and would probably never have considered what he did. However, had I seen the shot, it would have been the best shot for me too, for most of us. Granted I guesstimated percentages but it comes down to if the safety and pocketing a ball are equally hard, try to pocket the ball. That five by the rail was very big the way Efren shot, also a consideration. He took a shot that minimized giving up ball in hand and maximized his chances of pocketing the five even if they were probably well under 50-50.
As it seems like always, Efren maximized his chances for good things to happen, from a legal hit to pocketing a ball. He gave himself a chance to win, other options made not turning over the table extremely remote.
Hu