Was the Z-SHOT Efren’s Best Option?

[book collector]

Thanks!



I had more trouble with that shot than I thought I would. I guess I need more practice with the mechanical bridge. The shot also required draw and/or reverse spin to clear the 6. This made the shot a lot tougher than a rolling-CB kick, especially at such a long distance. Give it a try. If you do, please report back to let us know if you still think it is a "viable" option.

After watching the video I am thinking the masse kick off the right long right rail, is probably the best option for most people , It would be great to ask Efren why he passed on all the other shots , we know he saw them, but he ultimately picked the z , I would guess that even he doesn't really know why he picked it , it probably just felt right.

 

[dr_dave]

Awesome video, Dave!

Thanks!

I've watched tons of them. My friend Jason Merry took your course to be a certified pool instructor and I was curious if there was an online version and what that would entail.

I do offer online lessons, but I offer instructor training only in person, mostly through my BU Boot Camps. To me, a very important part of instructor training is observing and participating in good instruction.

 

[dr_dave]

Dr Dave has concluded that the kick isn't practical at high speed because of the position of the six

FYI, the 7 also impeded the natural Z shot path, forcing Efren to cheat the angle with sidespin. But you are correct that the 6 definitely blocks any faster-speed alternatives.

 

[dr_dave]

It was obviously as you said, the best shot for Efren at the moment!

No question. The Z shot won the match for him, even if he was extremely lucky to get the outcome he did. I estimate the odds of Efren making the shot at 1 in 15. In the TAR interview, he predicted the odds for Shave would be 1 in 23 (see the interview excerpt in my other recent video). I suspect his odds for getting a hit (and not fouling) were probably 50/50.

The other shots carry the same risks

I disagree. It was very easy to get the hit with the one-rail slight-draw-bend kick, and it also wasn't that difficult to pocket the ball.

I never heard the five ball declared frozen

The 5 ball was definitely not frozen. The gap was about 1/2", which was very helpful.

 

[dr_dave]

After watching the video I am thinking the masse kick off the right long right rail, is probably the best option for most people

In my experience, the draw-bend kick (the first option) was much easier, both to get the hit and to pocket the ball.

It would be great to ask Efren why he passed on all the other shots , we know he saw them, but he ultimately picked the z , I would guess that even he doesn't really know why he picked it , it probably just felt right.

Agreed. Although, he sure thought about it a long time, so you would think he might have chosen what he thought was the best option (not based just on feel, but on likely percentages).

 

[pt109]

In my experience, the draw-bend kick (the first option) was much easier, both to get the hit and to pocket the ball.

I agree...the massé may not get the optimum results.


Agreed. Although, he sure thought about it a long time, so you would think he might have chosen what he thought was the best option (not based just on feel, but on likely percentages).

Efren may have felt the one rail kick is tricky on tournament cloth, which tends to be newly installed and slides long.

 

[ShootingArts]

I disagree. It was very easy to get the hit with the one-rail slight-draw-bend kick, and it also wasn't that difficult to pocket the ball.

Once both shots are on the final leg I can't see any comparison between a bank with a spinning cue ball and a very mild cut. The rule of thumb is to take even a severe cut over a bank. Although I don't always follow this rule, a very slight cut with little spin and a corner pocket target seems to offer a much better chance of success than a cue ball with much more spin and trying to bank a ball into the side pocket. Even without any other considerations than the window to cut into the corner compared to the window to bank into the side seems to make it obvious that the corner pocket is the better target. Banking into a corner on the far end of the table offers increased risk of a double hit. The zee bank seems to be the far better option to maintain control of the table if like you estimate for Efren, your chances are fifty-fifty of a good hit in competition.

A flaw of any lab testing, you find yourself in a manufactured situation. twenty tries at a prop shot has the paths being refined and math alone doesn't describe the differences between the odds of one shot in competition and twenty in a test lab. As you have probably noticed before, one of my duties in R&D was oversight of and often hands on set up in the test lab. One of my more favorite parts of my job although I have to admit I loved almost everything about R&D.

Hu

 

[dr_dave]

A flaw of any lab testing, you find yourself in a manufactured situation. twenty tries at a prop shot has the paths being refined and math alone doesn't describe the differences between the odds of one shot in competition and twenty in a test lab.

Agreed. But the "lab testing" definitely gives you a "feel" for the shot difficulty level.

 

[ideologist]

Agreed. But the "lab testing" definitely gives you a "feel" for the shot difficulty level.

I'd argue that isn't true at all. Once you see the point on the rail to aim at, most reasonable players can hit a shot repeatedly after a few warmup tries

 

[dr_dave]

I'd argue that isn't true at all. Once you see the point on the rail to aim at, most reasonable players can hit a shot repeatedly after a few warmup tries

... but when you know the exact spot to hit on the rail (and what speed and spin to use), and it still takes many attempts to pocket the ball, then you know the shot is really difficult!

 

[ideologist]

The other point I haven't seen come up that I was relating to earlier.

If the Z-shot was hit too thick, the object ball goes safe to an awkward bank.

If it was too thin, the cueball lays up to the side rail and leaves funny position or a bank.

Making it is basically an automatic win.

Best shot choice

 

[dr_dave]

The other point I haven't seen come up that I was relating to earlier.

If the Z-shot was hit too thick, the object ball goes safe to an awkward bank.

If it was too thin, the cueball lays up to the side rail and leaves funny position or a bank.

Making it is basically an automatic win.

... unless you miss the ball entirely, which is very easy to do, even for a top player like SVB taking multiple attempts at the shot.

 

[ideologist]

... unless you miss the ball entirely, which is very easy to do, even for a top player like SVB taking multiple attempts at the shot.

SVB didn't play 3-cushion at a top-tier level either

 

[dr_dave]

SVB didn't play 3-cushion at a top-tier level either

I don't think Efren's Z shot was very natural, even to a good 3-cushion player. That is not a very common 3-cushion shot.

 

[ideologist]

I don't think Efren's Z shot was very natural, even to a good 3-cushion player. That is not a very common 3-cushion shot.

Sure, but with multi-rail kicks, you are playing the cueball to the contact point that will send you where you need to go. Efren was arguably the best ever at executing on this scenario, including multi-rail kicks to a specific part of the object ball. I don't think it is as far-fetched for him as you are intimating.

Especially on a table with bucket pockets and a shallow shelf

 

[dr_dave]

Sure, but with multi-rail kicks, you are playing the cueball to the contact point that will send you where you need to go.

A shot like the Z Shot is difficult for many reasons, but I think the main reasons are:
1.) It is difficult to aim the shot and judge the required speed and spin for the chosen aim and table conditions.
2.) It is difficult to have the precision necessary to get an accurate hit.

The second can be calculated based on shot geometry and table physics, but it can also be approximated by trying the shot a bunch of times (where you can lock in the ideal line of aim, speed, and spin fairly quickly) and track the stats. That is basically what I and other have done with Z shot recreation attempts.

Efren was (and mostly still is) awesome (maybe the greatest) at both 1 and 2.

 

[alphadog]

If I can explain myself correctly , odds of making a desired outcome , can be very skewed by how good the original attempt is ? Efren did it first try ,set up in a lab,and off by inches to begin with it may be difficult to make the proper adjustments on this shot as speed and spin are probably more important the starting cueball path.

I had a guy show me a 3c shot that he said pro pool players had no idea on how to score. This was at at pool trnmnt and was in between matches. I asked what was the answer,and was shown the shot. I replied to me its a simple 3 cushion kick then scoring both at almost or the same time. I was told its almost impossible so try it. I kicked 3 rails a and hit both balls simultaneously for a score. The player showing me the shot said thats crazy shoot from the 3rd cushion contsct point and its hard to do what you just did.

 

[alstl]

Something that popped into my head regarding the circumstance Efren found himself in was a comment Ray Martin made on the old video of him doing a 14.1 exhibition. He talked about maintaining your composure when get a bad break. "The guy who gets frustrated and throws his cue across the room - he's never going to make it. When you get out of line get back in line".

Another titbit about Efren. You notice sometimes when something goes wrong he puts his right hand behind his head. I was watching a match once with Bustamante in the booth and the other commentator asked Bustamante why Efren did that. Bustamante said he is "getting the monkey off his back".

Before the Z shot after Efren got the bad roll you see him do that. Probably a way for him to clear his mind and focus on what's ahead.

 

[dr_dave]

Something that popped into my head regarding the circumstance Efren found himself in was a comment Ray Martin made on the old video of him doing a 14.1 exhibition. He talked about maintaining your composure when get a bad break. "The guy who gets frustrated and throws his cue across the room - he's never going to make it. When you get out of line get back in line".

Another titbit about Efren. You notice sometimes when something goes wrong he puts his right hand behind his head. I was watching a match once with Bustamante in the booth and the other commentator asked Bustamante why Efren did that. Bustamante said he is "getting the monkey off his back".

Before the Z shot after Efren got the bad roll you see him do that. Probably a way for him to clear his mind and focus on what's ahead.

He also often smiles and laughs off a mistake instead of brooding over it (although, he does diagnose and learn from the mistake like any good player). These are definitely good mental game qualities.