WE need a decent ppol hall in Dallas

Just a little background first. I grew up in Grand Prairie, Texas along time ago. My brother still lives in Richardson.

I've been to the Billiard Den, Hawleys, Clicks,Speeds, Rusty's, Fox & Hound and two more I can not remember the names of. So I kinda know a little about the types of places there.

Would you go to a place that did not allow smoking?
Would you go to a place that only served beer?
Would you go to a place that only had 9 foot tables?
Would you go to a place that did not have a large food menu?
Would you go to a place that had a code of conduct?

Would you go to a place that actively focused on pool and helped promote the various games of pool to all?
Would you go to a place where the owners played better than you do?
Would you go to a place that has a family oriented type atmosphere?
Would you got to a place that always takes care of their stuff?
Would you go to a place where all the staff is knowledgeable in pool?

I'm curious because in this thread and another one, there seem to be a attitude that a pool room also has a bar and some level of food.

It was in Texas, that I realized there is a difference between a bar with pool tables and a pool room. Here, we have pool rooms mostly. Where I play has 28 9' GC, only beer, and limited food menu, yet it does well. Oh, and family owned.

So, do you want another bar with pool tables or a real life "This is Ames mister" style of pool room?

Like most pool players, I've dreamed of my on place. I don't want a bar with tables, but a pool room, for all ages to come and play and not have a second thought about bringing any family or friends there.

Could a place like this survive in Texas or anywhere else?
 
Fatboy2 said:
great post,

I thought about it for a minute, grabbing a big house in Highland Park and buying a building(all cash) and opening a room. I have the cash to do this.

Here is my problem with it, the ROI sucks on the pool room biz and would be just ok on the building I'd buy, if I put myself in as a tenant at market rate rent, I'd do ok on the building(it would be a single tenant free standing big box, (I might take 50% and rent the other 50%) not a strip mall. so i'd do ok or worse on the building.

the pool room itself as a biz would be a ball and chain, I get the sales numbers from several pool rooms in different markets around the country often. I see their numbers some with full bars some with smoking, some big some small. And the only thing I see is businesses going down hill, they are all doing poorly but one. the one doing well is over 40 years old. all are GOOD rooms run by people who know the biz.

the problem is facebook and video games, nobody young plays much anymore or if they do its a fluke, pool is over. In LA there are 20,000,000 and 7-8 good rooms with the same faces i seen since the 80's. I'm 45 and dont see many players younger than 40, except Oscar. Or up and comming players who are atthe pool room everyday playing, the guys doing this are ALL older than me. Its a senior citizens game, in 20 years pool rooms are history. What will happen is more 1-2 table private clubs popping up for players, they will replace the pool rooms of the past and in time they will too fade way. People just dont play pool anymore. Its on its way out, in 40 years its over like bumper pool is now.


Its not the highest and best use of $$$, thats why there isnt a room there. The few people who want it unfortunately cant support it, in any market here in America. I'd rather go to the PI learn my way around and do something-with a pile less $$$.

best
eric:)
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Good points Eric. This is a little off topic, forgive me. But, the Commercial Real Estate market is tough. I use to work for the Federal Reserve Bank and before that the US Treasury Department traveling all over the country. So, I pretty familiar with the Commercial Real Estate Market in most places.

The problem is too much supply. Highly competitive for the few tenants. Vacancy rates and rent concessions are still a problem. Projects are getting done with a 7 to 8 cap rate. If these things don't improve and/or interest rate go up, these projects will be Bar-Qed. Multi-family is doing OK in some markets. In the Southeast Multi-family is real difficult. Several old projects with deferred maintenance. Assisted living projects have high vacancy because people can't sell their house to get there.

The worst is retail and office. The one bright spot is light industrial. Several small manufactures who build down hole equipment for the oil and gas industry. This is primarily concentrated in middle America. Houston should be booming with this. A lot of the product will be sold outside of the US.

This is where real estate investors have a good opportunity. Light manufacture is gearing up and they can't afford to tie up capital in real estate. They would rather pay rent. Get some good returns now and spin it off in a couple of years before oil price retreat.

Again, sorry to get off topic.

Steven
 
duckie said:
Just a little background first. I grew up in Grand Prairie, Texas along time ago. My brother still lives in Richardson.

I've been to the Billiard Den, Hawleys, Clicks,Speeds, Rusty's, Fox & Hound and two more I can not remember the names of. So I kinda know a little about the types of places there.

Would you go to a place that did not allow smoking?
Would you go to a place that only served beer?
Would you go to a place that only had 9 foot tables?
Would you go to a place that did not have a large food menu?
Would you go to a place that had a code of conduct?

Would you go to a place that actively focused on pool and helped promote the various games of pool to all?
Would you go to a place where the owners played better than you do?
Would you go to a place that has a family oriented type atmosphere?
Would you got to a place that always takes care of their stuff?
Would you go to a place where all the staff is knowledgeable in pool?

I'm curious because in this thread and another one, there seem to be a attitude that a pool room also has a bar and some level of food.

It was in Texas, that I realized there is a difference between a bar with pool tables and a pool room. Here, we have pool rooms mostly. Where I play has 28 9' GC, only beer, and limited food menu, yet it does well. Oh, and family owned.

So, do you want another bar with pool tables or a real life "This is Ames mister" style of pool room?

Like most pool players, I've dreamed of my on place. I don't want a bar with tables, but a pool room, for all ages to come and play and not have a second thought about bringing any family or friends there.

Could a place like this survive in Texas or anywhere else?
Click to expand...

Run the numbers my friend. You can't make it off pool time. They haven't been able to do that since there was an Ames.
 
Fatboy2 said:
great post,

I thought about it for a minute, grabbing a big house in Highland Park and buying a building(all cash) and opening a room. I have the cash to do this.

Here is my problem with it, the ROI sucks on the pool room biz and would be just ok on the building I'd buy, if I put myself in as a tenant at market rate rent, I'd do ok on the building(it would be a single tenant free standing big box, (I might take 50% and rent the other 50%) not a strip mall. so i'd do ok or worse on the building.

the pool room itself as a biz would be a ball and chain, I get the sales numbers from several pool rooms in different markets around the country often. I see their numbers some with full bars some with smoking, some big some small. And the only thing I see is businesses going down hill, they are all doing poorly but one. the one doing well is over 40 years old. all are GOOD rooms run by people who know the biz.

the problem is facebook and video games, nobody young plays much anymore or if they do its a fluke, pool is over. In LA there are 20,000,000 and 7-8 good rooms with the same faces i seen since the 80's. I'm 45 and dont see many players younger than 40, except Oscar. Or up and comming players who are atthe pool room everyday playing, the guys doing this are ALL older than me. Its a senior citizens game, in 20 years pool rooms are history. What will happen is more 1-2 table private clubs popping up for players, they will replace the pool rooms of the past and in time they will too fade way. People just dont play pool anymore. Its on its way out, in 40 years its over like bumper pool is now.


Its not the highest and best use of $$$, thats why there isnt a room there. The few people who want it unfortunately cant support it, in any market here in America. I'd rather go to the PI learn my way around and do something-with a pile less $$$.

best
eric:)
Click to expand...

I mostly agree... except for the part about pool dying out in 40 years. Look how popular it is in Asian counties at the moment. They have video games to compete with too. If pool continues to grow internationally it could result in a resurgence in the USA.
 
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JMW said:
I mostly agree... except for the part about pool dying out in 40 years. Look how popular it is in Asian counties at the moment. They have video games to compete with too. If pool continues to grow internationally it could result in a resurgence in the USA.
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I agree with the international scene, it will do well. but unless there is a movie or something to make pool cool here its going to die. look at TV shows filmed on the lots at the studio's like Adam-12 from 68-74 often there would be a store front in the back ground that would be a pool room, they would just run past it, it is just a mock up in a lot at a studio. my point is its common to see pool rooms in TV shows from the 70's and older, some scenes in the pool room others just as back ground props. point being now that has disappeared, there is a coffee house or generic bar they run past in a chase scene.

I was watching Lou Grant the other night filmed in 81( I think) and they went to a house and there was a bumper pool table in the background it was only on the screen for a second, but it was part of the set. now there would be a wide screen TV in its place. Pool is just not part of young peoples lifes. My ex girls daughter and i are very close, we have been forever, she is my daughter far as i'm concerned and we talk about everything. she knows I play and we talk a little about pool, none of her friends know what it is. they all know who my tattoo artist is but never heard of Shane. thats the truth, my tatoo artist is rather well known so maybe that's not a fair comparison. But i just dontr see interest in pool in 16 year olds anymore. Where I came from if you couldnt play a little pool you were a sissy, p*ssy, etc. I guy had to play pool to be a man, it was just how it was. You had to be a little better than a banger or you were a misfit.
 
Gmanpoke said:
Run the numbers my friend. You can't make it off pool time. They haven't been able to do that since there was an Ames.
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I'm not so sure even Ames was a $$$ maker.:( Those joints like that sure did disappear fast IMO, I would like to know how long those types of rooms were really open. I'm not sure anyone is alive that would have first hand knowledge anymore. What the rents were? they couldnt have been the first tenants in the buildings-the cost of building a building for pool time(rents) just dont make sense now or in the past. There mite have been a handful of those rooms that lasted longer than 10 years but I dont think it would have happened often maby in a few citys, to be sure one would have to have a first hand knowlege of the economy the micro economics of a region for a specific time period and I dont know if thats in recorded history anywhere.
 
JMW said:
I mostly agree... except for the part about pool dying out in 40 years. Look how popular it is in Asian counties at the moment. They have video games to compete with too. If pool continues to grow internationally it could result in a resurgence in the USA.
Click to expand...

I think Eric is primarily talking about America. I don't know whether pool will be dead in the US in 40 years. But, one thing to keep in mind "the trend is my friend".

In the late 1800's and early 1900's there were thousands of pool halls. When I was a kids growing up, there were pool halls in every little town. The county seat where I grew up was about 2,500 to 3,000 people and we had 2 pool halls. Not bars, these were old time pool halls. Guess how many they have now? Guess how many they have in a 60 mile radius?

I was at Chesters in OKC last night from 8:00 til just after 2:00, I was in action so I stayed after closing. My bill, which included a coke was $15. I don't care where you are in the US or what scale of product you provide your customers, you can't keep your doors open if your customer is there for 6 hours and you only charge them $15.

Steven
 
Gmanpoke said:
I think Eric is primarily talking about America. I don't know whether pool will be dead in the US in 40 years. But, one thing to keep in mind "the trend is my friend".

In the late 1800's and early 1900's there were thousands of pool halls. When I was a kids growing up, there were pool halls in every little town. The county seat where I grew up was about 2,500 to 3,000 people and we had 2 pool halls. Not bars, these were old time pool halls. Guess how many they have now? Guess how many they have in a 60 mile radius?

I was at Chesters in OKC last night from 8:00 til just after 2:00, I was in action so I stayed after closing. My bill, which included a coke was $15. I don't care where you are in the US or what scale of product you provide your customers, you can't keep your doors open if your customer is there for 6 hours and you only charge them $15.

Steven
Click to expand...


When I was 18 and broke, pool was what I wanted to do and it was also among the most affordable things to do-full time. So for me it was a win/win. I could indulge myself into what I liked for nothing, If I wanted to fly planes I wouldnt have been able to afford flight school. glad I didnt have that interest.

Problem today is pool is expensive, Here is a little story then my point: I havent been playing much in the past 6 months, and I'm in the mood to play So I played a guy I know(in Vegas, nice guy) a session of 9 ball and 8 ball. Races to 9 for $50. we played 3 races of 9 ball (8-8 we raced again 8-1 I lost and stopped it at 8 games last set I missed a 9 ball at 7-6 so I lost 9-7, played a race to 11 8 ball for $100 I got beat real bad-so bad I cant stand it 11-1:embarrassed2:) it was a great session, I lost but for not playing like that in 6 months I was happy with how I played, one set got out of hand, he plays 8ball MUCH better than me. I lost $200, he paid the time-$42. The time was 20% of what he won which is a little heavy but normal for small action. My point is pool is expensive now.

When I go to hit balls in LA I am going to spend $20-$30 no matter what, when I was 18 I would spend $5-$8 to play. Pool has went up more than inflation, because of the real estate boom rents have went up hard and the rooms have to charge more for time.


face book and video games are cheaper for kids on short $$$ to play, pool aint a cheap mistress anymore. thats another problem with the pool room biz, its cheaper to pitch up at a Starbucks with your smart phone or tablet and geek out online than play pool, lots cheaper. Just like flight school it was out of my reach and pool is out of the reach of broke kids. with enuff broke kids(I dont mean flat broke-just short $$$ kids) they add up to being solid income if they come to the pool room daily. I dont see that. the regulars i do see everytime I go to the pool room in LA or Vegas(most cases recently) its the 60 years old 3C players.

Believe me I aint knocking pool, hell i want it to thrive and do great. i do my part to ensure it will do that. But I'm also realistic and I just dont see a bright future. If Hollywood would make a movie it would help lots. but they are smart and there is a reason they aint making pool movies, pool aint the thing, hell they aint making poker movies for that matter.
 
l hope the momentum of the international pool scene ultimatly results in billiards being accepted in the Olympic Games. If this happens, pool might make a come back in the USA without the need of a Hollywood movie. Then we can get that cool pool hall in Dallas!
 
Thumbs Up

JMW said:
l hope the momentum of the international pool scene ultimatly results in billiards being accepted in the Olympic Games. If this happens, pool might make a come back in the USA without the need of a Hollywood movie. Then we can get that cool pool hall in Dallas!
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I totally agree. I have wrote on threads here on AZ way back about how important it is for the Sport of Billiards/Pocket Billiards to be in the Olympics.
That is the one thing that can make our Sport sky rocket. I use to think about it when I was a kid. I always could not understand why it wasn't.
On the funny side, there has been threads about off the wall so call sports that are in the Olympics...... There are many. I will not get into it but our Sport deserves to be in there.
 
14-1StraightMan said:
I totally agree. I have wrote on threads here on AZ way back about how important it is for the Sport of Billiards/Pocket Billiards to be in the Olympics.
That is the one thing that can make our Sport sky rocket. I use to think about it when I was a kid. I always could not understand why it wasn't.
On the funny side, there has been threads about off the wall so call sports that are in the Olympics...... There are many. I will not get into it but our Sport deserves to be in there.
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Thats something that would be great!!! the bad part is it would get ZERO TV time in America, our networks here suck!! they show more drama about the althelte than the sport they are in, the history of their mom dieing of cancer and dad taking them to practice everyday working 11 jobs. they make the Olympics a soap opera. In europe they actually show more than 4 sports-unlike American broadcasting.


Archery is a Olympic sport which I enjoy watching and it gets no air time,


I hope pool or 3C gets picked up someday, i'll figure out a way to watch it forsure. the internet is great for that.
 
Wow......

I see some folks from the DFW metroplex here on the forums. This is pretty cool! :thumbup:

Arlington, TX here....
 
In my opinion you can have a great room with good tables but if you don't have good players who are also good human beings you don't really have much. I will go to a dive any day over an upscale room if the caliber of player and people is higher in the dive.

I have entertained the idea of a private billiards club mainly to have an arena for a junior program but not sure if a doable business model can be created for it.
 
I think someone asked if there are any Diamond tables in D/FW, and then someone else mentioned Fox & Hound. F&H (two locations I've been to) had Diamond tables. They are nice to play on.

But F&H isn't my idea of a pool room. I'm going to talk to the manager of my local D/FW favorite about some simple upgrades that I as a steady customer would support. For example, I'll supply Delta racks for the four 9' tables, if she/the room will put in better (say $10-15 each) racks for the 8's. Provision is if management or ownership changes, I get my racks back. If she's up for that, I'm going to talk table lighting with her. I think they are from the distributor, or whatever you call it, and I think we can make a better arrangement and get better lighting for both the 8's and 9's.

Bit by bit, turn it into a better room.

I'm also trying to get her to *raise* prices on 9' tables (the ones I play on). They should be 25% more per hour, minimum, than 8's. They take up that much more space. And beyond that, people who want to play on 9's are more likely to have coffee or water or nothing than alcohol, and to not have 3-4 players at a table.

If these things work, then we're onto table maintenance, room layout, and other stuff.

I'm just a customer, but want a room I'm proud to play in.
 
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Tell me you're including me in this crap. Or do I count since I'm in the road more than I'm home at times? You want the truth? Most room owners in tx don't care about their tables. They've been trained to love the hacks and prices. It's all about the money, and although some of them can be brought around,most will never make that attempt. They will sell gold crowns to buy imperial eliminaters, they will pay Joe m. 50.00 to destroy sets of rails twist frames, and warp slates, but won't get them fixed for years because its too much. You ask why I go on the road so much? To survive in an area that has as many hacks as it does Ford trucks. And you know Damn good and well I'm not going to hide behind a keyboard- I will drive to wherever,whenever, and look you in the eye when I speak. If someone does good work,I will say they do good work- if not, well that's why I created the hackwork thread. The famous ones get to go on Facebook. Answer your phone sometime, had some diamonds for you while you were on the same street and I was in new Orleans.
And randyg is correct, Jeff is the closest thing in north east Dallas to getting it right. But his work was still first in my thread. But he IS by far better than 99% of the guys around here. Like I said, I will give credit where its due. What's so much different about YOUR style of pockets? mark Gregory does the best railwork, jay is right there with him, and now that you know mark was correct in his approach you're on board. I've played on tables by all three of you, and I play well enough to feel the difference, and work on tables enough to understand it.
At least I've finally gotten around to watching the Simonis videos. Thanks mark.



realkingcobra said:
I hear what you guys are saying, but you need to understand...there's more to working on a pool table than just installing the cloth. I can install the cloth on a pool table as well, if not better than most table mechanic's in this country...but even as well as I can install the cloth...tight as hell and for sure no puckers under the rails, and with MY style of pocket work, in which you don't see on table in TX...that still don't make the table play right in the pockets, still don't make up for installing the wrong cushions on the rails, still don't correct the seams that are apart on the slates, and still don't make the tables level. No matter how great a table mechanic can install the cloth....at some point in time....the rails need to be fixed, the slates need to be leveled, and the cushions need to be replaced with the right cushions, and the facings in the pockets need to be installed correctly....and that's where the table mechanics in TX fail....because they think that being a table mechanic is all about changing the cloth...and that's it.

Glen
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Cuephoric said:
Tell me you're including me in this crap. Or do I count since I'm in the road more than I'm home at times? You want the truth? Most room owners in tx don't care about their tables. They've been trained to love the hacks and prices. It's all about the money, and although some of them can be brought around,most will never make that attempt. They will sell gold crowns to buy imperial eliminaters, they will pay Joe m. 50.00 to destroy sets of rails twist frames, and warp slates, but won't get them fixed for years because its too much. You ask why I go on the road so much? To survive in an area that has as many hacks as it does Ford trucks. And you know Damn good and well I'm not going to hide behind a keyboard- I will drive to wherever,whenever, and look you in the eye when I speak. If someone does good work,I will say they do good work- if not, well that's why I created the hackwork thread. The famous ones get to go on Facebook. Answer your phone sometime, had some diamonds for you while you were on the same street and I was in new Orleans.
And randyg is correct, Jeff is the closest thing in north east Dallas to getting it right. But his work was still first in my thread. But he IS by far better than 99% of the guys around here. Like I said, I will give credit where its due. What's so much different about YOUR style of pockets? mark Gregory does the best railwork, jay is right there with him, and now that you know mark was correct in his approach you're on board. I've played on tables by all three of you, and I play well enough to feel the difference, and work on tables enough to understand it.
At least I've finally gotten around to watching the Simonis videos. Thanks mark.
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Don't get your panties in a twist, most don't include all table mechanics. You don't stay in TX long enough to be a TX table mechanic:D, which means you're out of the box so to speak. The rest of what you said is beyond my comprehension, as I don't have a clue to what you're saying about Mark's work vs mine:D....was that an attempt to use Mark and Jay's work to try and slam my work?
 
Cuephoric said:
What's so much different about YOUR style of pockets? mark Gregory does the best railwork, jay is right there with him, and now that you know mark was correct in his approach you're on board. At least I've finally gotten around to watching the Simonis videos. Thanks mark.
Click to expand...

Be careful Shane, least the dog you're trying to kick....turns around and bites you in your ass;) a word to the wise should be sufficient;)
 
Tx has a ridiculous amount of great players. League players that are shortstop speed in most other states, great cuemaker, and all around pride. If that would rub off onto more room owners, I think there would've been some serious changes in the game. I've scouted out spots for three years now in dfw. Clocking the locations that make the most sense, and ironically, not one room is within 5 miles of the best areas. But improve playing conditions on the tables already there and the players will still come. How many players came to Lewisville when I was doing their tables? Longview? Volcanos? Lukes? Jr pockets? I recently did repairs and recovered 4 tables at fast Freddy in ft worth. I can honestly say the tables in that room have been hacked to death and Damn near destroyed in the owners unwillingness to pay to have things done correctly. Petrified rails, cracked and warped slates, worn out frames and sections of felt missing... before I finished the 4th table there was a waiting list over 30 people long for the 9fts. None of the 8fts were touched on that side, and none were played on. The players are willing to go wherever and wait for what they want, but it has to be available. I almost retired from working on tables. But watching one old man Choking back tears over getting to play on 1 great table again, reminded me of why we do this job. If someone wants to open a real poolroom in dfw, players from the entire metro area, have been begging for it. One pocket and straight pool players alone would keep the doors open. As long as its central, priced fair,equipment is good,and the players are treated right, they will come. Smoking or no smoking.
 
Cuephoric said:
Tx has a ridiculous amount of great players. League players that are shortstop speed in most other states, great cuemaker, and all around pride. If that would rub off onto more room owners, I think there would've been some serious changes in the game. I've scouted out spots for three years now in dfw. Clocking the locations that make the most sense, and ironically, not one room is within 5 miles of the best areas. But improve playing conditions on the tables already there and the players will still come. How many players came to Lewisville when I was doing their tables? Longview? Volcanos? Lukes? Jr pockets? I recently did repairs and recovered 4 tables at fast Freddy in ft worth. I can honestly say the tables in that room have been hacked to death and Damn near destroyed in the owners unwillingness to pay to have things done correctly. Petrified rails, cracked and warped slates, worn out frames and sections of felt missing... before I finished the 4th table there was a waiting list over 30 people long for the 9fts. None of the 8fts were touched on that side, and none were played on. The players are willing to go wherever and wait for what they want, but it has to be available. I almost retired from working on tables. But watching one old man Choking back tears over getting to play on 1 great table again, reminded me of why we do this job. If someone wants to open a real poolroom in dfw, players from the entire metro area, have been begging for it. One pocket and straight pool players alone would keep the doors open. As long as its central, priced fair,equipment is good,and the players are treated right, they will come. Smoking or no smoking.
Click to expand...

I agree!!!

Maniac
 
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