What are the advantages of high-deflection shafts?

[Patrick Johnson]

MY STANDARD CLARIFICATION POST:

1. "Deflection" and "squirt" are both commonly used to mean the cue ball being pushed aside by the cue stick when sidespin is applied. But "deflection" also has a second meaning: the cue stick being pushed aside by the cue ball. It's confusing to use "deflection" to mean two different things that are always discussed together, so I recommend (over and over, usually to deaf ears) using "squirt" to mean the ball being pushed aside by the stick and "deflection" to mean the stick being pushed aside by the ball.

2. Stick deflection and cue ball squirt cause each other - they're two "sides" of the same action. But, counterintuitively, more flexible shafts don't reduce squirt and stiffer shafts don't increase squirt (at least not to a significant degree). That's pretty much all about the shaft's "end mass", not its flexibility.

3. You can't get significantly any more or less cue ball spin (follow/draw or sidespin) with either kind of shaft. That's all about where you hit the cue ball. Hit the same spot with either kind of shaft and you'll get the same amount of action. This has been extensively tested.

4. Laminating a shaft does not make it low-squirt. It might make it slightly more consistent in how it flexes in different directions, but that doesn't make a significant difference in the amount of squirt produced (see #2 above). The main advantage of laminating is to the manufacturer: he can use lower grades of maple and still get a straight, stable shaft.

Carry on.

pj
chgo

 

[JoeyInCali]

MY STANDARD CLARIFICATION POST:

1. "Deflection" and "squirt" are both commonly used to mean the cue ball being pushed aside by the cue stick when sidespin is applied. But "deflection" also has a second meaning: the cue stick being pushed aside by the cue ball. It's confusing to use "deflection" to mean two different things that are always discussed together, so I recommend (over and over, usually to deaf ears) using "squirt" to mean the ball being pushed aside by the stick and "deflection" to mean the stick being pushed aside by the ball.

2. Stick deflection and cue ball squirt cause each other - they're two "sides" of the same action. But, counterintuitively, more flexible shafts don't reduce squirt and stiffer shafts don't increase squirt (at least not to a significant degree). That's pretty much all about the shaft's "end mass", not its flexibility.

3. You can't get significantly any more or less cue ball spin (follow/draw or sidespin) with either kind of shaft. That's all about where you hit the cue ball. Hit the same spot with either kind of shaft and you'll get the same amount of action. This has been extensively tested.

4. Laminating a shaft does not make it low-squirt. It might make it slightly more consistent in how it flexes in different directions, but that doesn't make a significant difference in the amount of squirt produced (see #2 above). The main advantage of laminating is to the manufacturer: he can use lower grades of maple and still get a straight, stable shaft.

Carry on.

pj
chgo

Who cares ?
CTE solves all that. :grin:

 

[Jaden]

LD vs. normal deflection.

There is no decent cue that has high defelction. You have normal deflection and LD. ND can vary anywhere from relatively high to relatively low deflection. Now to respond to the ops question.

First off you have to determine if you're a feel player or a conscious player. For a feel player the only thing that really matters is playing with the same thing. To that end LD will probably be better in the long run but isn't necessary. laminated shaft tech will have more consistency, but lamination does not a LD shaft make and if you play with the same shaft it doesn't matter. Your mind will adjust, you just don't want to change what you use a lot.

If you are a thoughtful player that uses systems, etc.. then it matters a little more and just comes down to what you're more comfortable with.

BHE is probably one of the best discoveries for pool players. With LD shaft tech the pivot point is typically too far back to be comfortable for most players. There is an alternate for it though. With LD shaft tech, you can use parallel shift for applying english for most shots, although some adjustment is necessary for longer shots or extremely soft or hard shots. But that is the case with BHE and a normal deflection shaft as well.

It really comes down to what you're most comfortable with and what your style of play is. If you use ghost ball and BHE then, you might be better off with a normal deflection shaft.

Jaden

 

[Dead Crab]

Solid shaft ====> better feel and feedback

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Jaden:
With LD shaft tech, you can use parallel shift for applying english for most shots

This isn't really true, althought it can seem so. An aim adjustment (large or small) is needed for virtually all shots with sidespin, even with low-squirt shafts. I know this because I use an ultra-low-squirt shaft and consciously adjust my aim for every sidespin shot.

You may be thinking that swerve more often cancels out the lower amount of squirt with a low-squirt shaft. This isn't exactly true either - with a low-squirt shaft, swerve makes it more likely that you'll have to adjust in the opposite direction, but it doesn't increase the number of shots (very few) that can be hit with a parallel stick.

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

This isn't really true, althought it can seem so. An aim adjustment (large or small) is needed for virtually all shots with sidespin, even with low-squirt shafts. I know this because I use an ultra-low-squirt shaft and consciously adjust my aim for every sidespin shot.

You may be thinking that swerve more often cancels out the lower amount of squirt with a low-squirt shaft. This isn't exactly true either - with a low-squirt shaft, swerve makes it more likely that you'll have to adjust in the opposite direction, but it doesn't increase the number of shots (very few) that can be hit with a parallel stick.

pj
chgo

Agreed. I use a LD shaft and there's no way it cancels out deflection 100%. This is using an angle of attack into the CB that's truly parallel to the line of aim. I think most people think they're parallel, but they're really shooting with slanted angle of attack into the face of the CB.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

This isn't really true, althought it can seem so. An aim adjustment (large or small) is needed for virtually all shots with sidespin, even with low-squirt shafts. I know this because I use an ultra-low-squirt shaft and consciously adjust my aim for every sidespin shot.

You may be thinking that swerve more often cancels out the lower amount of squirt with a low-squirt shaft. This isn't exactly true either - with a low-squirt shaft, swerve makes it more likely that you'll have to adjust in the opposite direction, but it doesn't increase the number of shots (very few) that can be hit with a parallel stick.

pj
chgo

Spidey:
Agreed.

Be still, my heart.



pj
chgo

 

[whammo57]

I wasn't gonna make a serious post on this thread for fear of being flamed, but I'm a glutton for punishment.

Am I the only person in the world that really doesn't feel the need to "adjust" my aim when switching from standard to LD shafts (and vice-versa)?

You all can see from my sig line that I mostly use 314-2 shafts (and an OB Classic). I just started really playing pool seriously about 5 years ago. Like a lot of players, I stated out with a Cuetec. Then I went to a Lucasi and got a Z shaft for it (didn't care for the diameter). Eventually I got my Jacoby and ordered a 314-2 for it. The 12.75" diameter seems to be to my liking. I use this combo almost exclusively in leagues and tournaments.

The other night at 9-ball league I walk in the door, grab a house cue off the wall and BNR a rack of 9-ball. Just the other day after practicing at home with my Jacoby/314 combo, I put my cue away and grabbed a $27 Rage cue off the wall rack and BNR another rack. No adjustments, just trusting where I was aiming. I don't let the aiming part of shooting pool "get into my head". I just relax and let my brain take over that facet of shooting. I mix and match cues during practice sessions all the time going from LD shafts to standard shafts, from leather to wrapless to linen wraps, from Triangle tips to Sniper to Moori tips, from cues 58" in length to a cue that is 61" in length. I don't CONSCIOUSLY make ANY adjustments. I just grab and shoot, with equal results. Now, I'm no world-beater, but on a good day I can shoot a little. IMHO, I feel like too much thought goes into the need for making an adjustment from shaft to shaft, cue to cue, etc.. But of course, this is solely based upon MY experiences.

Maniac

Hey Mr. Maniac,

I think you have it. There is no magic shaft or butt or balance point or tip or ferrule or joint pin that will make you a better pool player. If there was, all cues would have the same construction.

Everyone must learn to play with the equipment they have in their own hand. Nothing makes you a better player except practice and instruction.

There is much hype for all pool cue components but it always comes back to the basics. The cue needs to be well constructed and most of all "it must feel good and shoot good in your hands."

Kim

 

[greyghost]

Agreed. I use a LD shaft and there's no way it cancels out deflection 100%. This is using an angle of attack into the CB that's truly parallel to the line of aim. I think most people think they're parallel, but they're really shooting with slanted angle of attack into the face of the CB.

True as thats my playing equipment and thats how I aim "parallel" and yea yea yea I know Mathmetacially I'm sure there is an angle of attack to the stroke line instead of 100% pure columbian parallel. But realize that those extra fine adjustments are made by the subconscious as it clicks away at the algorythm.

Heres the thing with "Parallel" english/aim........the sci/math freaks have issue here but its more or less with the name, the description, not in the actual technique working or not. To all of you that argue this point I ask you "wtf are we supposed to call it then?"

If the brain is making the fine tune at the end then what do you tell someone thats trying to learn to use it...........

"ok your going to need your protracter and angle finder so as to approach the ball from its ventral side at an shifted "center" angle of attack displaced 2 tips from the original shot line with an angular quantity of 3.7º in relation to the original center and shot line"

I can say that YES 100% many shots I'm not 100% parallel to the OG shot line, but I'm DAM CLOSE..........its just a reference and then your ROTE system takes over I'm sure.........but no matter to me b/c it accomplishes the task so it effectively works.

Like a fake boob...........I'm sorry thats a real boob in that there shirt buddy I've never seen a fake boob on anyone, except for when Ben Stiller wore the breast feed tit on meet the fockers.

i don't even know if that makes sense, it sounds retarted IMOP..........and anyone trying to explain the "Parallel" aiming technique without using the word parallel would be confusing to no end rivaling that of the CTE mysteries.

I don't care if come to find out it is really just an optical illusion or subconscious brain magic..............IT ACCOMPLISHES THE GOAL AND MANY MANY PLAYERS USE "Parallel" aiming to great effect.

lets just solve the problem by always putting it in the proverbial quotation marks or we can host a naming contest and change it (warning they don't listen to deflection for shaft and squirt for rock so changing the name may lead to an exponential increase of mass hysteria and confusion)

"Parallel"
-Grey Ghost-

 

[TATE]

I often am surprised that even some good players think they benefit from high squirt cues just because they play with a conventional shaft.

Not all conventional shafts are high squirt. Usually, when the player lefts me try their cue, they have found a conventional shaft that produces relatively low squirt, or they avoid playable shots that are too difficult because their shaft can't handle it. Often their shafts have been tapered down.

Below is an example of a power shot that is not very difficult with an LD shaft, but extremely difficult with a high squirt one. The shot is dead straight, using high left english at high speed. The throw straightens out the 9 ball and the high speed cancels the swerve.

Giving an LD shaft to a C player expecing an improvement is akin to putting slicks on a Yugo and expecting it to do the 1/4 mile faster.

These kinds of shots are perfectly playable with an LD shaft.

Chris

CueTable Help

 

[SpiderWebComm]

True as thats my playing equipment and thats how I aim "parallel" and yea yea yea I know Mathmetacially I'm sure there is an angle of attack to the stroke line instead of 100% pure columbian parallel. But realize that those extra fine adjustments are made by the subconscious as it clicks away at the algorythm.

Heres the thing with "Parallel" english/aim........the sci/math freaks have issue here but its more or less with the name, the description, not in the actual technique working or not. To all of you that argue this point I ask you "wtf are we supposed to call it then?"

If the brain is making the fine tune at the end then what do you tell someone thats trying to learn to use it...........

"ok your going to need your protracter and angle finder so as to approach the ball from its ventral side at an shifted "center" angle of attack displaced 2 tips from the original shot line with an angular quantity of 3.7º in relation to the original center and shot line"

I can say that YES 100% many shots I'm not 100% parallel to the OG shot line, but I'm DAM CLOSE..........its just a reference and then your ROTE system takes over I'm sure.........but no matter to me b/c it accomplishes the task so it effectively works.

Like a fake boob...........I'm sorry thats a real boob in that there shirt buddy I've never seen a fake boob on anyone, except for when Ben Stiller wore the breast feed tit on meet the fockers.

i don't even know if that makes sense, it sounds retarted IMOP..........and anyone trying to explain the "Parallel" aiming technique without using the word parallel would be confusing to no end rivaling that of the CTE mysteries.

I don't care if come to find out it is really just an optical illusion or subconscious brain magic..............IT ACCOMPLISHES THE GOAL AND MANY MANY PLAYERS USE "Parallel" aiming to great effect.

lets just solve the problem by always putting it in the proverbial quotation marks or we can host a naming contest and change it (warning they don't listen to deflection for shaft and squirt for rock so changing the name may lead to an exponential increase of mass hysteria and confusion)

"Parallel"
-Grey Ghost-

You can be right - depending on the length of the shot and amount of english applied.

However, if you test your comments with two bridges (one from the bridge position and one at the butt end of the cue) and setup a 5' long shot or so, you'll see if you follow-through dead straight (and parallel) many shots can't be made outside of a certain tip offset (which varies from shaft to shaft).

So, I guess you could be correct based on how much english you apply. But realistically, many of us apply a lot of english depending on the game we're playing. So it wouldn't "technically" be true.

Nevertheless--- the bottom line is what you said. If you're consciously doing "X" setup and balls are dropping--- that's all that matters.

 

[Highmiles]

When I purchase a cue stick, part of the consideration is the quality of the shaft. It drives me wild to hear someone say they purchased a so and so cue that is famous for it's wonderful hit. In the next sentence, they proclaim that is is "even better" since they bought their LD (take your pick) shaft. I really see this a lot with Shön and Pechauers. Why in the world would you buy those, or any high dollar cue, and feel the need to immediately change what you bought. Are you really buying a Predator shaft, and simply buying the "prettiest" "shaft holder" you can find for it? If what you want is a shaft with a shaft holder instead of cue, just buy something cheap to hold your shaft.
Low deflection is also a misnomer. A more accurate term would be reduced deflection. Generally speaking it is a reduction of less than 15%. Why would you willingly give up the feel and hit of a good cue for that? If you play enough, the difference in any adjustments you make is too minuscule to even notice.

 

[Zivan1967]

I often am surprised that even some good players think they benefit from high squirt cues just because they play with a conventional shaft.

Not all conventional shafts are high squirt. Usually, when the player lefts me try their cue, they have found a conventional shaft that produces relatively low squirt, or they avoid playable shots that are too difficult because their shaft can't handle it. Often their shafts have been tapered down.

Below is an example of a power shot that is not very difficult with an LD shaft, but extremely difficult with a high squirt one. The shot is dead straight, using high left english at high speed. The throw straightens out the 9 ball and the high speed cancels the swerve.

Giving an LD shaft to a C player expecing an improvement is akin to putting slicks on a Yugo and expecting it to do the 1/4 mile faster.

These kinds of shots are perfectly playable with an LD shaft.

Chris

CueTable Help

I agree here that the shot shown is easier with a LD shaft, but what happens when the shot is straighter and i want to stun the cueball over to the long rail? With a low deflection shaft you can't stun balls to cheat angles as easy as you can with a higher deflection shaft. So on both sides there are shots that each shaft can do easier.

I play 8 ball a lot so it's mostly about patterns not stroke shots. I need a cue that I have complete control over stop shots, stun shots, and slight draw/follow. I can still make massive follow and draw but if I control the rock carefully the run out will look extremely easy and I won't need it. In rotation games you're forced at times to make more demanding shots so a LD shaft i'd say is better for rotation games but once you get used to any cue (I mean really play with the same cue everyday for 2 years without trying a new tip or new shaft) then your stroke and methods of aiming should tune into the cue and your personal preference will change to whatever setup you have. At that point it won't matter what game you're playing you'll still want to use that one cue.

Don't get me wrong though, my cue isn't high deflection, but isn't low deflection either. It's a well made cue that feels great to me and that's what matters most.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

greyghost:
I ask you "wtf are we supposed to call ('parallel' english) then?"

Your idea of always putting it in quotes (like I did above) works, but even if we acknowledge it isn't really "parallel", the term is used in too broad a sense - to mean english applied by any method that isn't BHE or FHE. Do we need different names for "parallel" english applied by feel vs. "parallel" english applied by conscious estimation?

I don't think we should try to name it at all.

"I use BHE. What do you do?"

"I adjust my aim manually."

or

"I adjust my aim by feel."

pj
chgo

 

[greyghost]

You can be right - depending on the length of the shot and amount of english applied.

However, if you test your comments with two bridges (one from the bridge position and one at the butt end of the cue) and setup a 5' long shot or so, you'll see if you follow-through dead straight (and parallel) many shots can't be made outside of a certain tip offset (which varies from shaft to shaft).

So, I guess you could be correct based on how much english you apply. But realistically, many of us apply a lot of english depending on the game we're playing. So it wouldn't "technically" be true.

Nevertheless--- the bottom line is what you said. If you're consciously doing "X" setup and balls are dropping--- that's all that matters.

That brings up a good point.........as generally I stay in what i refer to as the CORE of the CB when using english......using the tip contact size upon impact as my tip displacement (3mm) from exact center is never more than 2 tips and honestly most shots I shoot I rarely need more than a tip and a half.

Now something like the straight in shot posted above and hitting the stun to the rail with spin for travel (gyroscopic precession is the term for the shot) that shot I do actually make a little diff adjustment than what I typically do as its just out of the normal scope.

Getting the most out of the shot is all about letting the cue have all the momentum anyways, and the purer the stroke the less tip displacement your going to need to accomplish the same goal. I shoot most of my game with just about half tip......its all i need to just shift the trajectory where I need it to be as I want to let the CB do its thing, the more natural the better....its trying to make the rock do the tango when it wants to do the twist that gets people in trouble.

Its easy to say that one never needs such excess quantities of english as they could just use it as salt as I do to just accent the flavor not completely change it.....but the thing is my pattern play makes that possible, if I don't play my patterns then I'll start having to manipulate the CB more and more which eventually always causes us to miss the shot.


You should have to buy english once your of age with proper identification and it should come with a warning label.

"Warning overuse can lead to high blood pressure and a light wallet"



After I finish the install on the cloth on my table and get the lights in and such I'll do some private study with my handy dandy protracter and roll of narrow white tape so as to give some insight on the angular relation when using "Parallel" aiming methods to the original shot line.


On a side note I hear it often that LD characteristic shafts dont jump or masse as well as a conventional shaft. I think most of this issue is cause of the smaller tip that is found on most LD shafts as you have ones like the z2 @ 11.75mm (i think thats the size) I shoot with a 12mm and thats a drastic decrease in size from the typical 13mm of today. Most people cant masse with a big tip, so it sure aint going to be easier to accomplish with a tip thats basically 1.5 mm smaller.

That and b/c the effects of squirt on the CB caused by the LD shaft changes trajectory off typical then common sense should tell you that if you aim a full masse in "X" way with the normal shaft your going to have to change how you aim that with the LD............at least in my instance I have to shoot them either a little wider or with more forward speed as since the LD doesn't squirt the CB as much the CB will have a tendency to BREAK too early b/c the initial trajectory was wrong.

Same thing with the jumps I find with the smaller tip players just have a tendency to strike higher on the CB for the jump and just end up trapping...........i think this may just be a mind trick if your used to bigger O.D. shafts a smalled diameter will look lower than it actually is probably b/c you can see a hair more radius of the ball because of the smaller tip size..........which definately could fool you into striking the ball in the incorrect spot.

It took me some time to get those shots down with a LD cue, I masse just fine with it and tho I rarely can jump a full ball from within 12" with my cue I can jump half a ball with it at well under a foot and have no clearance issues typically.

-Grey Ghost-

 

[TATE]

I agree here that the shot shown is easier with a LD shaft, but what happens when the shot is straighter and i want to stun the cueball over to the long rail? With a low deflection shaft you can't stun balls to cheat angles as easy as you can with a higher deflection shaft. So on both sides there are shots that each shaft can do easier.

I play 8 ball a lot so it's mostly about patterns not stroke shots. I need a cue that I have complete control over stop shots, stun shots, and slight draw/follow. I can still make massive follow and draw but if I control the rock carefully the run out will look extremely easy and I won't need it. In rotation games you're forced at times to make more demanding shots so a LD shaft i'd say is better for rotation games but once you get used to any cue (I mean really play with the same cue everyday for 2 years without trying a new tip or new shaft) then your stroke and methods of aiming should tune into the cue and your personal preference will change to whatever setup you have. At that point it won't matter what game you're playing you'll still want to use that one cue.

Don't get me wrong though, my cue isn't high deflection, but isn't low deflection either. It's a well made cue that feels great to me and that's what matters most.

I agree that the major benefit of a high squirt shaft is that it's easier to create more unnatural angle while still aiming center pocket. Pretty much this is experienced at advanced play levels. We usually play on very tight tables. I have had to learn to create angle with LD shafts by slightly favoring one side of the pocket and using the built-in precision to do this accurately. For example, to stun this to the foot rail, I would use right english, slightly above center (firm) and slightly favor the right center of the pocket.

Chris

 

[greyghost]

Your idea of always putting it in quotes (like I did above) works, but even if we acknowledge it isn't really "parallel", the term is used in too broad a sense - to mean english applied by any method that isn't BHE or FHE. Do we need different names for "parallel" english applied by feel vs. "parallel" english applied by conscious estimation?

I don't think we should try to name it at all.

"I use BHE. What do you do?"

"I adjust my aim manually."

or

"I adjust my aim by feel."

pj
chgo

That would work..........so I would reply:

When I use english I approach the shot parallel to the original shot line, when I drop down I fine tune the shot manually/feel based.


Tho being that I don't really get very far out generally I'd guestimate that when I do make that minute adjustment its maybe a half tip just off the top of my head if I close my eyes and visualize what I do...........like I said tho I want to study this more and give you guys some solid numbers for us to go off of so we can get more definitive answers to what really goes on when using the "parallel" brand of aiming.

interesting indeed
-Grey Ghost-

 

[Patrick Johnson]

greyghost:
...so I would reply:

When I use english I approach the shot parallel to the original shot line, when I drop down I fine tune the shot manually/feel based.

I like that much better than a catch-all name that's misleading.

For myself, I'd say "I approach the shot with my aim pre-adjusted by the amount I estimate is needed. If I'm not confident pre-adjusting (either because the shot is unusual or because I'm just "off"), I aim center-cue-ball with no adjustment and then adjust my tip offset and aim at the same time."

That's much longer than just saying "I use 'parallel' english", but much more meaningful too.

pj
chgo

 

[greyghost]

I like that much better than a catch-all name that's misleading.

For myself, I'd say "I approach the shot with my aim pre-adjusted by the amount I estimate is needed. If I'm not confident pre-adjusting (either because the shot is unusual or because I'm just "off"), I aim center-cue-ball with no adjustment and then adjust my tip offset and aim at the same time."

That's much longer than just saying "I use 'parallel' english", but much more meaningful too.

pj
chgo

True true..........well brother at least we have gotten this straight and understandable so far........If we ever change the world and get everyone to use language as we have just more fittingly accomplished....the drinks are on me. Don't hold your breath as this subject is doomed to repeat itself, so when we finally meet we can just toast for giving it a good college try lol.

the times are a changing,
-Grey Ghost-

 

[Bob Callahan]

Thanks for the replies.

This thread would've probably been better called, "What are the advantages of standard-deflection shafts?"

As for terminology, the industry standard is to call shafts which deflect the cue ball less than standard shafts, either, "low-deflection" or "LD". Although "squirt"
has become the term science guys like to use to refer to what happens to the cue ball on impact, it's still ok to call the shaft, "low deflection". This is because, in physics, objects in oblique collisions each deflect [Elastic collision in two dimensions (Oblique Collision)], so when the industry calls a shaft, "low deflection", it just means, "deflects the cue ball less than a standard shaft".