What are the responsibilities for a person providing escrow services for cues

[manwon]

What are the responsibilities of anyone providing escrow services for cues. I am uncertain that I fully understand what someone doing escrow services is suppose to do, however, below is what I would expect.

1) Inspect the cue to insure authenticity.

2) Inspect the cue to determine if the cue is as described by the seller.

3) Handle the transfer of funds from the buyer to seller.

4) Handle the transfer of the cue from the seller to the buyer.

In my opinion the person providing escrow services is taking upon themselves the responsibility of all the above. If a cue comes through their hands that doesn't meet 1 and 2 above the buyer should be contacted immediately by escrow identifying all problems found. Funds should not be transfered until the buyer and seller either make a new agreement or the buyer excepts things as they are.

Please participate in the above Poll, and please post your opinions.

Thanks Very in advance,

 

[pooltableproCP]

First! ......but seriously - I agree to all of your points Craig.

 

[Hidy Ho]

There is a sticky thread where Marcus (FAST_N_LOOSE) stated ..

After Seeing All The Bad Deals Go Down Here In Az Land, I'd Like To Make My Escrow Services More Publicly Known.

It's Much Easier To Use Escrow Up Front, Than It Is To Try And Get Your Money / Cue Back After You Get Scammed. I'm Also Hopeing That This Will Cut Down On The i "Got Ripped Off" Threads, Here In The Wanted / For Sale Section.

Here's What I Offer For $20.00$ ( Plus The Cost Of Shipping The Cue To The Buyer, And The Cost Of Mailing The Payment To The Seller)

1) Seller Ships Me The Cue/case. The Buyer Sends Me Payment (made Out To The Seller, Not To Me) If Using Paypal, The Buyer Sends Payment Directly To The Seller After They Are Satisfied With My Pics And Description.

2) Once I Have The Item, I'll Take Good Pictures And Verify The Condition And Specs For The Buyer.

Once The Buyer Approves The Purchase, I Send Payment To The Seller (buyer Sends Paypal To Seller) Once Payment Clears, I Ship The Item To The Buyer.

Yes, It Will Cost You An Extra 20 Dollars, And It May Add A Few Days To A Transaction, But Isn?t That Better Than Being Ripped Off????????

 

[manwon]

There is a sticky thread where Marcus (FAST_N_LOOSE) stated ..

After Seeing All The Bad Deals Go Down Here In Az Land, I'd Like To Make My Escrow Services More Publicly Known.

It's Much Easier To Use Escrow Up Front, Than It Is To Try And Get Your Money / Cue Back After You Get Scammed. I'm Also Hopeing That This Will Cut Down On The i "Got Ripped Off" Threads, Here In The Wanted / For Sale Section.

Here's What I Offer For $20.00$ ( Plus The Cost Of Shipping The Cue To The Buyer, And The Cost Of Mailing The Payment To The Seller)

1) Seller Ships Me The Cue/case. The Buyer Sends Me Payment (made Out To The Seller, Not To Me) If Using Paypal, The Buyer Sends Payment Directly To The Seller After They Are Satisfied With My Pics And Description.

2) Once I Have The Item, I'll Take Good Pictures And Verify The Condition And Specs For The Buyer.

Once The Buyer Approves The Purchase, I Send Payment To The Seller (buyer Sends Paypal To Seller) Once Payment Clears, I Ship The Item To The Buyer.

Yes, It Will Cost You An Extra 20 Dollars, And It May Add A Few Days To A Transaction, But Isn?t That Better Than Being Ripped Off????????

Thanks for the information Jazz.

 

[rhncue]

Sounds like a lot of trouble and extra shipping/insurance to me. Wouldn't it be easier and cheaper for the buyer to send the money to the escrow service and the seller to send the cue directly to the buyer with signature confirmation once the money has been received by the escrow service. Once the buyer receives the cue and inspects it himself he either OKs the payment to be forwarded or sends the cue back to the seller and once he receives it back he can release the money back to the buyer. The cue would only have to be insured and shipped once if the cue is as stated.

Dick

 

[ShootingArts]

a catch

Craig,

Although I would hope the escrow service would catch obvious frauds I wouldn't expect to hold them responsible for absolute authentication considering the very nominal fee being charged. Fraud and mistakes do happen and as we both know many of the collectible cues do not carry absolute markings and only the quality of the provenance proves their authenticity.

It looks more like the escrow service is providing additional images and a personal evaluation so that the buyer can better decide rather than guaranteeing the authenticity of the cue. If the escrow is to be the guarantor of the origin of the cue I think the rate would have to be far higher, perhaps 30-50 dollars plus ten to twenty percent of the cue's value. That would cause people to stop using what little guarantee they have of making a secure deal in my opinion.

The wide range of value of cues makes it impossible to charge a nominal fee and provide the first service you expect. There are people in the art world that provide such services but I believe the fees are much much higher.

Hu

What are the responsibilities of anyone providing escrow services for cues. I am uncertain that I fully understand what someone doing escrow services is suppose to do, however, below is what I would expect.

1) Inspect the cue to insure authenticity.

2) Inspect the cue to determine if the cue is as described by the seller.

3) Handle the transfer of funds from the buyer to seller.

4) Handle the transfer of the cue from the seller to the buyer.

In my opinion the person providing escrow services is taking upon themselves the responsibility of all the above. If a cue comes through their hands that doesn't meet 1 and 2 above the buyer should be contacted immediately by escrow identifying all problems found. Funds should not be transfered until the buyer and seller either make a new agreement or the buyer excepts things as they are.

Please participate in the above Poll, and please post your opinions.

Thanks Very in advance,

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I'm thinking that authentication is a little beyond the scope of an escrow service. Authenticating or certifying to the provenance of a cue is a whole separate areas of expertise. I mean can you really say that a cue is a "Black" just because it has "Richard Black" handwritten on the forearm? Or has the TS logo on a Scruggs? I'm guessing the list of people that can really authenticate the cues from a variety of makers is very, very short.

Manwon, I'm not saying you are not one of those people and I am aware you know an awful lot about cues. I'm only saying it is a separate expertise, I'm not sure it needs to be part of an escrow service, and I would think your guarantee that the buyer is really getting a $15K Ginacue would be worth more than $20.


I'm not even sure that escrow should opine to the condition unless it is grossly misrepresented, since the buyer may be satisfied or unsatisfied as the case may be and condition is to some extent subjective.

It seems to me it is mainly a trusted conduit for the transfer of the cue and the cash. Basically the seller knows that his cue stays safely in escrow until the cash is transferred. The buyer knows the cue will be sent to him once he has made payment and that if he is not satisfied with the merchandise he will get his money back. The deal can have certain stipulations like the buyer has an amount of time to inspect the cue and accept or reject it etc.

For this service alone $20 is reasonable and the cost could be split between the parties. For such a nominal charge no more should be expected.

 

[manwon]

Thanks to everyone who has responded to this thread, I think that everyone has made some great points. However, the reason I started this thread was because a friend recently purchased a cue on the forum and he brought the cue by my shop this evening. He was a little upset because the cue has some problems, now this was not a production cue. The cue came with two shafts, one shaft is about one inch shorter than the other. The shafts also do not fit well at the cues joint, and it appears that the cue may have been refinished or that the shafts are not original to the cue in question.

This is not a thread designed to flame anyone and that is not my intent or the buyers so please don't ask for any details. My only question is when a cue comes through escrow doesn't it make sense to at least inspect it and contact the buyer if there are obvious problems like these. This way, the buyer and seller can get together and figure out what happened and correct the problem between them before it becomes a problem.

Thanks again to all who posted.

 

[ShootingArts]

the answer to this is yes

Craig,

I do think that the escrow service is responsible for checking all of the things that a buyer would check in a face to face buy. This means that they should have caught the poorly matching joints and the short or long shaft. Without more information I am going to duck whether they should have caught a possible refinish and different ferule. This can be very obvious or difficult to determine depending on more detail than we have been given.

Hu

Thanks to everyone who has responded to this thread, I think that everyone has made some great points. However, the reason I started this thread was because a friend recently purchased a cue on the forum and he brought the cue by my shop this evening. He was a little upset because the cue has some problems, now this was not a production cue. The cue came with two shafts, one shaft is one inch shorter than the other, the longer shaft has a different type of ferrule than the shorter shaft which was not described by the seller. The shafts also do not fit well at the cues joint, and it appears that the cue may have been refinished or that the shafts are not original to the cue in question.

This is not a thread designed to flame anyone and that is not my intent or the buyers so please don't ask for any details. My only question is when a cue come through escrow doesn't make sense to at least inspect it and contact the buyer if there are obvious problems like these. This way, the buyer and seller can get together and figure out what happened and correct the problem between them before it becomes a problem.

Thanks again to all who posted.

 

[javi2]

I learned the hard way that escrow is the way to go. The last cue I purchased here ended up being warped. The seller won't answer PM's and owes me money, long story.......anyhow, can anyone provide a list of people who offer escrow services for cues?

 

[poolplayer2093]

you know with all the stuff i used to read about guys being misled or just plane ripped off, i'd be happy with a third party that just made sure i got what i paid for. maybe a phone call to each person involved in the deal describing the item being traded or paid for. obviously the packages should be insured when they're re-mailed out (that cost should be absorbed by the parties paying for the escrow service).

 

[ScottW]

Escrow isn't a pool-specific thing - there are tons of escrow services out there for all sorts of things. But, the vast majority do just what others have mentioned - they just handle both ends of the transaction, nothing more.

Adding cue inspection/etc. to an escrow service, I wouldn't call it "escrow". I'd come up with another name for it, a name that obviously implies "more than just your normal escrow service". Maybe something like "cue transaction facilitator", or something shorter (that was just off the top of my head).

 

[JimL]

If a cue comes through their hands that doesn't meet 1 and 2 above the buyer should be contacted immediately by escrow identifying all problems found. Funds should not be transfered until the buyer and seller either make a new agreement or the buyer excepts things as they are.

Short answer is Yes.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Much of the concerns with misrepresented cues could be accomplished with the simple escrow instruction that buyer and seller agree for buyer to have a period of time (couple of days or whatever) to inspect the cue and notify escrow if it meets his approval. If not he sends it back. The money does not transfer to the seller until the buyer approves the merchandise.

You know, all this concern about the buyer not getting "the shaft" so to speak, can backfire. Say escrow determines the cue is as seller represented but when the buyer gets it he doesn't agree. The dings in the forearm are more major than described in his own opinion. Or the buyer just doesn't like the look, hit, feel or balance of the cue. If escrow signed off on it seller could make a case the buyer is stuck with it.

I don't want someone else making those decisions for me. I would arrange with the seller that I get a period of time to inspect the cue and approve or return for a refund within a time frame. This gets written into the escrow instructions and both buyer and seller are protected financially for a small fee.

 

[FAST_N_LOOSE]

sounds like a lot of trouble and extra shipping/insurance to me. Wouldn't it be easier and cheaper for the buyer to send the money to the escrow service and the seller to send the cue directly to the buyer with signature confirmation once the money has been received by the escrow service. Once the buyer receives the cue and inspects it himself he either oks the payment to be forwarded or sends the cue back to the seller and once he receives it back he can release the money back to the buyer. The cue would only have to be insured and shipped once if the cue is as stated.

Dick

what about bad bank checks and money orders? Than the seller is out a cue, with nothing to do.

When i get a cue, it gets looked over, and any issues are told to the buyer. I also take good photos and specs for the cue.

As far as handling payment, i can and will, but it's easier for the payment to go to the seller, and once the payment clears, i ship the cue to the buyer.

Cue authentication isn't part of escrow. If somebody isn't sure, the cue needs to go to somebody that can write a letter for it. If it's a cue that i can authenticate, i will. But i claim to be an expert about nothing.

 

[ribdoner]

what about bad bank checks and money orders? Than the seller is out a cue, with nothing to do.

When i get a cue, it gets looked over, and any issues are told to the buyer. I also take good photos and specs for the cue.

As far as handling payment, i can and will, but it's easier for the payment to go to the seller, and once the payment clears, i ship the cue to the buyer.

Cue authentication isn't part of escrow. If somebody isn't sure, the cue needs to go to somebody that can write a letter for it. If it's a cue that i can authenticate, i will. But i claim to be an expert about nothing.

BS!!!!! your as good as it gets when it comes to ass evaluation

 

[FAST_N_LOOSE]

BS!!!!! your as good as it gets when it comes to ass evaluation

I LOVES ME SOME GOOD ASS!:thumbup:

 

[FAST_N_LOOSE]

I'll take responsibility for describing condition, but not authentication.

The condition description, is one of the main reasons i offer my service. A regular (non-specialist) escrow service knows nothing about cues, or how to describe them.

But, like i mentioned before, if it needs to be verified/authenticated, pay a cuemaker (the appropriate one for the type of cue being sold) the 100 or so dollars to do the letter and the escrow.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Sounds like a lot of trouble and extra shipping/insurance to me. Wouldn't it be easier and cheaper for the buyer to send the money to the escrow service and the seller to send the cue directly to the buyer with signature confirmation once the money has been received by the escrow service. Once the buyer receives the cue and inspects it himself he either OKs the payment to be forwarded or sends the cue back to the seller and once he receives it back he can release the money back to the buyer. The cue would only have to be insured and shipped once if the cue is as stated.

Dick

I think both the cash and the cue have to go through escrow. The bum check scenario doesn't bother me because the escrow company shouldn't clear the cue for shipment to the buyer until the the check clears or otherwise good funds are in the hands of the escrow administrator. What bothers me about direct shipment of the cue to the buyer is what if the buyer says he never received the cue? Or he rejects it and sends it back but the seller never receives it or says that he didn't? Yes, I know there is tracking and the delivery can ultimately be documented but what a nightmare that can be avoided if everything physically goes through escrow.

 

[rhncue]

I think both the cash and the cue have to go through escrow. The bum check scenario doesn't bother me because the escrow company shouldn't clear the cue for shipment to the buyer until the the check clears or otherwise good funds are in the hands of the escrow administrator. What bothers me about direct shipment of the cue to the buyer is what if the buyer says he never received the cue? Or he rejects it and sends it back but the seller never receives it or says that he didn't? Yes, I know there is tracking and the delivery can ultimately be documented but what a nightmare that can be avoided if everything physically goes through escrow.

It cost .50 for signed delivery confirmation. That ends any hassle about receiving or not receiving said cue. The same problem arises about a bad check if the funds go through a broker or not. The only difference I see is instead of paying 20 or 30.00 in ship/ins. you have 40 to 60.00 with no more security. Don't use PayPal or checks. just do a postal money order. Much cheaper and safer. The broker sits on the money order until everyone is happy with the transaction. It doesn't bother me one way or another how people do it as I don't buy from anyone anyway. I send pics of the completed cue and when I receive payment I ship the cue. I'm not a fly by nighter and I sure am not going to ruin my reputation nor my business over a scam cue sale.

Dick