Stemming off of the other thread where the majority of the people chose the BCA as the best league...I agree by the way. What makes your league the best? I am helping a lady in our area operate a league and we are having trouble getting players and the APA has many players. Trying to get the higher ranked players from the APA to come over and join us but it is tough convincing them. I think the fact that even though we had 4 teams, we are still sending a team to Vegas when people get the word. Just trying to get some ideas on what people like and dislike about the league and ideas on how we could get more and better players?
What does everyone like about BCA?
- Thread starter wbweld0
- Start date
LOL! well seeing as no one seems to have anything to offer here at least yet! let me say this I am an 8 ball player and yes an admitted and proud APA 8 ball player !(at this point I start ducking flying bricks and epitaphs 
)
OK! I do not like the BCA 8 ball rules in regards to a eight on the break is not a win!!!
and The other one about a scratch on the eight is not a LOSS ! 
like WTF??????
OK now I know this will bring out the BCA loyalist
wbweld0 please send me some sort of gratuity for adding some life and answers to this post my address is ......... Well on after careful thought perhaps you had better PM me for that! 
) OK! I do not like the BCA 8 ball rules in regards to a eight on the break is not a win!!!
and The other one about a scratch on the eight is not a LOSS ! like WTF??????OK now I know this will bring out the BCA loyalist
wbweld0 please send me some sort of gratuity for adding some life and answers to this post my address is ......... Well on after careful thought perhaps you had better PM me for that! The good thing about BCA is that it often attracts stronger players, because they don't have to give up weight to their opponent.
Yet, the bad thing about BCA is that the final outcome of the league is basically pre-determined. Within a couple of weeks, can determine which teams are strong and thus likely to finish at the top, and which teams are not. Many matches throughout the season aren't even a challenge.
Yet, the bad thing about BCA is that the final outcome of the league is basically pre-determined. Within a couple of weeks, can determine which teams are strong and thus likely to finish at the top, and which teams are not. Many matches throughout the season aren't even a challenge.
MrLucky said:LOL! well seeing as no one seems to have anything to offer here at least yet! let me say this I am an 8 ball player and yes an admitted and proud APA 8 ball player !(at this point I start ducking flying bricks and epitaphs
OK! I do not like the BCA 8 ball rules in regards to a eight on the break is not a win!!!
OK now I know this will bring out the BCA loyalist
Hello Mr Lucky, do you use this name because it applies to APA rules and your play in general?
I for one do not understand the concept of 8 ball on the break being a win in the first place I mean any other time during the game of 8 ball you have to call your pocket for the 8 ball, and if you make the 8 ball in any pocket except the called pocket it is a loss, so why should the break be any different Mr. Lucky?
Well Craig !
I am most probably a lot older than you, because of that I will do two things ... I will not try and belittle you or make fun of you in my answer !
nor will I try and denigrate your choice in playing leagues ! I believe in .."To each his own!" .. I do believe, however in stating what I feel about a subject and hopefully giving and receiving intelligent discourse about it!!
So let me tell you that I learned 8 ball in the 50's before BCA rules in regard to 8 ball were instituted and adopted. I remember them being involved in standardizing American straight pool in the late 50's through 60's. I never heard of these 8 ball BCA rules of play until the eighties. I grew up playing eight ball and straight pool with some very heavy duty players and a scratch on the eight was a loss ! We called all of our shots not only the eight ! A eight on the break, just like in nine ball was a win !!!!!! Just like in nine ball it did not need to be called on the break! this to me was and is still considered a bonus for a good break!
So hopefully you now have a clearer view of my thoughts and statements! and you are no longer .."confused"..
manwon said:Hello Mr Lucky, do you use this name because it applies to APA rules and your play in general?
I am most probably a lot older than you, because of that I will do two things ... I will not try and belittle you or make fun of you in my answer !
nor will I try and denigrate your choice in playing leagues ! I believe in .."To each his own!" ..
I do believe, however in stating what I feel about a subject and hopefully giving and receiving intelligent discourse about it!! So let me tell you that I learned 8 ball in the 50's before BCA rules in regard to 8 ball were instituted and adopted. I remember them being involved in standardizing American straight pool in the late 50's through 60's. I never heard of these 8 ball BCA rules of play until the eighties. I grew up playing eight ball and straight pool with some very heavy duty players and a scratch on the eight was a loss ! We called all of our shots not only the eight
! A eight on the break, just like in nine ball was a win !!!!!! Just like in nine ball it did not need to be called on the break! this to me was and is still considered a bonus for a good break! So hopefully you now have a clearer view of my thoughts and statements!
and you are no longer .."confused".. 
MrLucky said:OK! I do not like the BCA 8 ball rules in regards to a eight on the break is not a win!!!
8 on the break is not a win because:
4.1 OBJECT OF THE GAME
Eight-Ball is a call shot game played with a cue ball and 15 object balls, numbered 1 through 15. One player must pocket balls of the group numbered 1 through 7 (solid colors), while the other player has 9 through 15 (stripes). The player pocketing either group first, and then legally pocketing the 8-ball wins the game.
Scratch on the 8 is not a loss unless:
4.19 PLAYING THE 8-BALL
When the 8-ball is the legal object ball, a scratch or foul is not loss of game if the 8-ball is not pocketed or jumped from the table. Incoming player has cue ball in hand. Note: A combination shot can never be used to legally pocket the 8-ball, except when the 8-ball is the first ball contacted in the shot sequence.
Bca
I have played APA and BCA both. I have to favor the BCA the best. The handicap system is to easy to sandbag and I do not like the ideal of playing where slop counts. Everyone makes a lucky shot once in a while, but I do like calling all shots the best. All in all, leagues are to have fun, meet new people. As for making the 8 ball on the break, your league operator has the option to change that rule during league play, but for state and national play you will have to follow BCA rules.
I have played APA and BCA both. I have to favor the BCA the best. The handicap system is to easy to sandbag and I do not like the ideal of playing where slop counts. Everyone makes a lucky shot once in a while, but I do like calling all shots the best. All in all, leagues are to have fun, meet new people. As for making the 8 ball on the break, your league operator has the option to change that rule during league play, but for state and national play you will have to follow BCA rules.
juegabillar said:
It wasn't always this way. These NEW rules are probably less than 15 years old. So how come the 9 on the break still wins in 9-Ball? It's much easier to do that. Making the 8 on the break is VERY difficult, and actually takes skill! It was a win for 50 years or more, and it still should be a win. This new rule is, and will always be a BAD rule.
And if you scratch while shooting at the 8, it should be loss of game. Also a new rule. The BCA rules committee needs to go back to the drawing board and rewrite their rule book. It's a mess.
MrLucky said:I am most probably a lot older than you, because of that I will do two things ... I will not try and belittle you or make fun of you in my answer !
nor will I try and denigrate your choice in playing leagues ! I believe in .."To each his own!" ..
So let me tell you that I learned 8 ball in the 50's before BCA rules in regard to 8 ball were instituted and adopted. I remember them being involved in standardizing American straight pool in the late 50's through 60's. I never heard of these 8 ball BCA rules of play until the eighties. I grew up playing eight ball and straight pool with some very heavy duty players and a scratch on the eight was a loss ! We called all of our shots not only the eight
So hopefully you now have a clearer view of my thoughts and statements!
I do not know how old you are but, I started playing pool in the late 60's. I do remember the way pool was played then, most likely not that different than the 50's. At that time in St.Louis, if you were playing 8 ball we played a variation called 1 - 15. If you were solids you had to play the 1 ball in a side pocket, and if you were stripes you had to make the 15 ball in the oppisite side pocket that the 1 ball went into or vise versa. Only then could you play the 8 ball and win the game. I also played two shot rollout 9 Ball, I also played 14-1 continuous pocket billiards, Snooker pay ball, Snooker Golf, and Three Cushion Billiards.
I was never confused by you first post, and yes I played Bar pool too, and I have played in pool leagues starting with the Bush League in St. Louis back in the 1970's. At that time the league was run by Larry Hubart and Terry Bell, then for what ever reason they started the APA, using the Bush Leagues rules and format. I just do not like shit shots in any form, and I think that this is one thing that the APA could change to make it a better organization. As for 8 ball on the break being a win, it has more to do with Luck than any form of skill.
By the way, maybe I am not as young as you think I am. Oh and also I hope this helps clear things up for you.
I come at this from a fairly unique perspective- knowing the people who run APA, BCA and VNEA.
All three have rules, policies and strategies that are specific to their organizations. And that's how it should be.
If all of them mirrored each other, there'd be no distinctions and, therefore, no reason for all of them to exist independent of each other.
After Mark purchased the BCA from the trade organization, he caught all kinds of grief for changing it to a "for profit" company. Hence, John Lewis (et al) broke off to form ACS. John had run the league when the BCA (trade assoc) still owned it.
Expect Mark and his staff to grow the BCA in time. There's nothing ignoble about having a profit incentive. It’s what encourages innovativeness and good customer service- you can't feed a family with p.o'd customers. They had a huge learning curve in the beginning, but experience will lead to a stronger league. I don't expect that ACS will be as fortunate- but sincerely hope it well be.
VNEA, of the three, is more geographically sporadic. They're strong in the Great Lake states and you'll see pockets here and there through many other states. They do a yeoman’s job with the league and generally mind their own business.
APA is what it is- a league geared as much towards lowered skilled players as it is towards higher skilled ones. It was, and basically still is, a niche that others haven't tried (or at least been successful) to fill.
All three are solid companies.
wbweld0, it's very important that you understand that trying to build your (or your friends) BCA league by marketing to players in other leagues will come back to bite you. If a player switches once, they'll do it again as soon as you don't satisfy them enough. The smart way to promote your league is to find pool players who aren't league players yet. If you do a good enough job, folks from other leagues will want to try yours. Stay away from nights when other leagues are playing to give them that option. Just remember that if you try to abscond with players from other leagues, the other leagues might end up doing the same thing to you. And if they already have a lot of teams, it’d hurt you, much more than them, to lose a few teams. You should want to have a better reputation than that anyway.
All three have rules, policies and strategies that are specific to their organizations. And that's how it should be.
If all of them mirrored each other, there'd be no distinctions and, therefore, no reason for all of them to exist independent of each other.
After Mark purchased the BCA from the trade organization, he caught all kinds of grief for changing it to a "for profit" company. Hence, John Lewis (et al) broke off to form ACS. John had run the league when the BCA (trade assoc) still owned it.
Expect Mark and his staff to grow the BCA in time. There's nothing ignoble about having a profit incentive. It’s what encourages innovativeness and good customer service- you can't feed a family with p.o'd customers. They had a huge learning curve in the beginning, but experience will lead to a stronger league. I don't expect that ACS will be as fortunate- but sincerely hope it well be.
VNEA, of the three, is more geographically sporadic. They're strong in the Great Lake states and you'll see pockets here and there through many other states. They do a yeoman’s job with the league and generally mind their own business.
APA is what it is- a league geared as much towards lowered skilled players as it is towards higher skilled ones. It was, and basically still is, a niche that others haven't tried (or at least been successful) to fill.
All three are solid companies.
wbweld0, it's very important that you understand that trying to build your (or your friends) BCA league by marketing to players in other leagues will come back to bite you. If a player switches once, they'll do it again as soon as you don't satisfy them enough. The smart way to promote your league is to find pool players who aren't league players yet. If you do a good enough job, folks from other leagues will want to try yours. Stay away from nights when other leagues are playing to give them that option. Just remember that if you try to abscond with players from other leagues, the other leagues might end up doing the same thing to you. And if they already have a lot of teams, it’d hurt you, much more than them, to lose a few teams. You should want to have a better reputation than that anyway.
Last edited:
MrLucky said:As I previously wrote these rules were instituted after I learned the game and they divert from the original way 8 was and in most other places is played. But perhaps your post may help others
We play modified BCA rules in PR. 8 on the break is a win, and scratching after pocketing the 8 is a loss. Helps us advance the tournaments but we always let people know that if they come to the U.S. they have to abide by the written rules.
I'm really surprised anyone favors 8 on the break as a win. Why should I get the ultimate reward for a hitting them hard and getting a little lucky? Or looking at it another way, why should my opponent pay the ultimate penalty? It's the one rule I'd change in any league if I could.
People want to say 8 on the break is a specific skill shot done by hitting the 2nd ball blah blah etc. It's not a 'shot'. It's not difficult. It's not a tricky 15 ball carom combo that can be done at will if only someone has enough skill, it's a 'whack and pray' that occasionally gets good results if you hit it a certain way. If it were pure technique and there were no luck involved, someone like efren would have found a way to make it 75% of the time. To say it takes skill is like saying "the lottery takes skill to win. First you have to scratch the ticket off, and there's the added skill of buying lots of tickets to improve your chances".
It always seemed weird to me that the rule still exists outside of bars. It's funny that a league might have some rules that seem obsessed with fairness, with special provisions like "scratch on the break is played behind the line" or "alternating breaks" ...yet they also support 8 on the break, which is blatantly unfair.
People want to compare it to 9 ball, and maybe 9 ball would be better as a call shot game, but just because one popular game allows garbage wins doesn't mean 8 ball should too.
People want to say 8 on the break is a specific skill shot done by hitting the 2nd ball blah blah etc. It's not a 'shot'. It's not difficult. It's not a tricky 15 ball carom combo that can be done at will if only someone has enough skill, it's a 'whack and pray' that occasionally gets good results if you hit it a certain way. If it were pure technique and there were no luck involved, someone like efren would have found a way to make it 75% of the time. To say it takes skill is like saying "the lottery takes skill to win. First you have to scratch the ticket off, and there's the added skill of buying lots of tickets to improve your chances".
It always seemed weird to me that the rule still exists outside of bars. It's funny that a league might have some rules that seem obsessed with fairness, with special provisions like "scratch on the break is played behind the line" or "alternating breaks" ...yet they also support 8 on the break, which is blatantly unfair.
People want to compare it to 9 ball, and maybe 9 ball would be better as a call shot game, but just because one popular game allows garbage wins doesn't mean 8 ball should too.
Last edited:
So though this is how the game has always been played...
so why don't we play it like straight pool and call everything (which is how we originally played it LOL!) and then penalize points ? balls for all scratches ! etcetera ecetera! I do not know any one who can consistently call a 8 or 9 for that matter on the break! ! so no its not a IMO "skill" and I would never call it such but it was a bonus IMO for a good break ! and since all balls were called after the break it did and does have a higher skill set from nine ball. As far as APA rules of only calling the eight I fully understand their implementation of this change in order to facilitate making lesser skill levels feel like they have a fair shot at a win against a skilled shooter, since the APA is geared toward bringing in new players to pool this only makes sense and therefore I may not always like it but I understand it ! In 8 a scratch on the eight is and has always been a loss for all other players except the BCA players of the late eighties and onward !
means little to you!CreeDo said:
so why don't we play it like straight pool and call everything (which is how we originally played it LOL!) and then penalize points ? balls for all scratches ! etcetera ecetera! I do not know any one who can consistently call a 8 or 9 for that matter on the break! ! so no its not a IMO "skill" and I would never call it such but it was a bonus IMO for a good break ! and since all balls were called after the break it did and does have a higher skill set from nine ball. As far as APA rules of only calling the eight I fully understand their implementation of this change in order to facilitate making lesser skill levels feel like they have a fair shot at a win against a skilled shooter, since the APA is geared toward bringing in new players to pool this only makes sense and therefore I may not always like it but I understand it ! In 8 a scratch on the eight is and has always been a loss for all other players except the BCA players of the late eighties and onward !We use a point system instead of winning X number of games in the M8 league I was talking about, so winning by snapping the 8 is just a little bonus.
It goes like this: each of your balls is worth 1 point and the 8 is worth 7 points, so by sinking all your balls and pocketing the 8 (winning the legal way) you earn 14 points and must call the pocket for the 8.
If you snap the 8 on the break you get 7 points plus any ballsthat fall (If 2 strips and 1 solid fall - the breaker gets 9 points and the other guy gets 1 point).
The matches are played up to the players rating, so an APA 7 would have a rating around 100 while the majority of people are rated 50-70. The 100 rated player needs to earn 100 points before his opponent earns 50-70 (their rating).
In this format I like being able to earn some bonus points for sinking the 8 on the break. It doesn't swing a match too much (especially with high rated players) and it is a nice reward for a really good break.
It goes like this: each of your balls is worth 1 point and the 8 is worth 7 points, so by sinking all your balls and pocketing the 8 (winning the legal way) you earn 14 points and must call the pocket for the 8.
If you snap the 8 on the break you get 7 points plus any ballsthat fall (If 2 strips and 1 solid fall - the breaker gets 9 points and the other guy gets 1 point).
The matches are played up to the players rating, so an APA 7 would have a rating around 100 while the majority of people are rated 50-70. The 100 rated player needs to earn 100 points before his opponent earns 50-70 (their rating).
In this format I like being able to earn some bonus points for sinking the 8 on the break. It doesn't swing a match too much (especially with high rated players) and it is a nice reward for a really good break.
I think I'm seeing MrLucky's point here, it took me a second... are you saying pretty much "if you want to eliminate luck completely why not just make even the break a called shot, and then the game would be played like straight pool with safe break to start? And then it wouldn't even be 8-ball anymore"
Something like that? Well anyway if that's what you're saying, I sorta agree that luck is built into 8 ball, and it wouldn't be the same game if you took ALL the luck away. I just think there should be enough luck to 'keep it interesting'. A little bit of luck keeps it spicy, like what you sink on the break or how the balls lie after. I just think "instant win" or "instant loss" rules is a little TOO spicy
I guess it might come down to personality whether or not someone likes this rule. I have never felt proud or happy of winning by an 8 ball against anyone. There's no reward in it for me because I feel like I should be able to beat any other league player by playing the rack out, which is more fun for me than breaking and then marking a win. Other people might be thrilled to just get the win, especially if they're the underdog, but I don't want anyone saying I won cuz I just got lucky. And when someone else does it to me, it leaves me with a sick feeling.
PS: I like your league's point system pete. The number of games doesn't matter, you both just play until the correct points are reached. The only thing I don't like is situations where someone's playing for 2 or whatever, and the game doesn't even need to be finished.
Something like that? Well anyway if that's what you're saying, I sorta agree that luck is built into 8 ball, and it wouldn't be the same game if you took ALL the luck away. I just think there should be enough luck to 'keep it interesting'. A little bit of luck keeps it spicy, like what you sink on the break or how the balls lie after. I just think "instant win" or "instant loss" rules is a little TOO spicy
I guess it might come down to personality whether or not someone likes this rule. I have never felt proud or happy of winning by an 8 ball against anyone. There's no reward in it for me because I feel like I should be able to beat any other league player by playing the rack out, which is more fun for me than breaking and then marking a win. Other people might be thrilled to just get the win, especially if they're the underdog, but I don't want anyone saying I won cuz I just got lucky. And when someone else does it to me, it leaves me with a sick feeling.
PS: I like your league's point system pete. The number of games doesn't matter, you both just play until the correct points are reached. The only thing I don't like is situations where someone's playing for 2 or whatever, and the game doesn't even need to be finished.
Last edited: