What does fouling into the back of the rack get you?

[7stud]

I was watching the end of the Lassiter v. Breit match that someone posted in the Main:

Luther Lassiter vs Jack Breit

Not sure this has been posted before. Lassiter vs Breit. Not much video out there on Jack Breit. Also, this one shows Luther playing with that strange black ferrule. Enjoy! All the best, WW Jack Breit vs. Luther Lassiter Las Vegas 4th...

forums.azbilliards.com

and the situation was: after a long run of many racks (~100 balls), Breit got too straight on his next break ball, so he called a safe and sunk the break ball, and he left the CB up table. The break ball was spotted at the head of the rack, so there was a full rack when Lassiter stepped to the table. Lassiter proceeded to bank the CB into the back of the rack and took a foul. What is the strategy behind that? Can't the opponent just foul right back?

 

[Bob Jewett]

I was watching the end of the Lassiter v. Breit match that someone posted in the Main:

Luther Lassiter vs Jack Breit

Not sure this has been posted before. Lassiter vs Breit. Not much video out there on Jack Breit. Also, this one shows Luther playing with that strange black ferrule. Enjoy! All the best, WW Jack Breit vs. Luther Lassiter Las Vegas 4th...

forums.azbilliards.com

and the situation was: after a long run of many racks (~100 balls), Breit got too straight on his next break ball, so he called a safe and sunk the break ball, and he left the CB up table. The break ball was spotted at the head of the rack, so there was a full rack when Lassiter stepped to the table. Lassiter proceeded to bank the CB into the back of the rack and took a foul. What is the strategy behind that? Can't the opponent just foul right back?

If you try to play a legal safe from the head rail to a full rack, you are very likely to leave some kind of shot. If your opponent makes it, there is a good chance -- at the top level, not in your local league -- that he will run out.

If you foul to the back of the rack and do it with a modicum of skill and finesse, you will neither leave a shot nor a good safe for your opponent. You will not lose the game on that shot.

If you are playing against an opponent who does not make long shots, then you may as well play the safe off the full rack and leave the cue ball on the head rail. No need to waste the time or the foul point. If your opponents start making those shots and running out the rack, change your strategy.

 

[sjm]

If you foul to the back of the rack and do it with a modicum of skill and finesse, you will neither leave a shot nor a good safe for your opponent. You will not lose the game on that shot.

If you are playing against an opponent who does not make long shots, then you may as well play the safe off the full rack and leave the cue ball on the head rail. No need to waste the time or the foul point. If your opponents start making those shots and running out the rack, change your strategy.

As I cannot improve on this, I'll just say ditto. The backscratch was an almost risk-free means of starting a safety battle on relatively even footing at the trivial cost of a single point.

 

[7stud]

Let's play this out. After Lassiter fouls, Lassiter takes a seat, and Breit gets out of his seat, and he aims the CB towards the end rail and banks the CB back up table leaving it on the right hand side of the kitchen(viewed from the rack)--a foul. Once again, I don't think Lassiter has a shot, so once again Lassiter banks the CB into the back of the rack? Is Lassiter hoping that a ball pops free preventing Breit from sending the CB back up table again? Even then, can't Breit just essentially tap the top of the CB, leaving Lassiter frozen to the rack and on two fouls?

 

[measureman]

Let's play this out. After Lassiter's foul, Lassiter takes a seat, and Breit gets out of his seat, and he aims the CB towards the end rail and banks the CB back up table leaving it on the right hand side of the kitchen(viewed from the rack)--a foul. Once again, I don't think Lassiter has a shot, so once again Lassiter banks the CB into the back of the rack? Is Lassiter hoping that a ball pops free preventing Breit from sending the CB back up table again? Even then, can't Breit just essentially tap the top of the CB, leaving Lassiter frozen to the rack and on two fouls?

the first person to take a foul may not win the safety battle but also does not sell out.

 

[7stud]

the first person to take a foul may not win the safety battle but also does not sell out.

What if both players just hit the ball 0.5 mm back and forth, each taking fouls and penalties as they accumulate? Does the game degenerate into who doesn't make a mistake by hitting the ball 1mm?

 

[measureman]

What if both players just hit the ball 0.5 mm back and forth, each taking fouls and penalties as they accumulate? Does the game degenerate into who doesn't make a mistake by hitting the ball 1mm?

after your third consecutive foul you lose 15 points and have to break the rack.
but you must warn your opponent that he is on two fouls before he shoots.
a lot of top 14.1 players will do that so their opponent does not get a shot and run racks.

 

[Straightpool_99]

I was watching the end of the Lassiter v. Breit match that someone posted in the Main:

Luther Lassiter vs Jack Breit

Not sure this has been posted before. Lassiter vs Breit. Not much video out there on Jack Breit. Also, this one shows Luther playing with that strange black ferrule. Enjoy! All the best, WW Jack Breit vs. Luther Lassiter Las Vegas 4th...

forums.azbilliards.com

and the situation was: after a long run of many racks (~100 balls), Breit got too straight on his next break ball, so he called a safe and sunk the break ball, and he left the CB up table. The break ball was spotted at the head of the rack, so there was a full rack when Lassiter stepped to the table. Lassiter proceeded to bank the CB into the back of the rack and took a foul. What is the strategy behind that? Can't the opponent just foul right back?

In general you should never scrape the full stack from the kitchen and go back up table, you're going to leave a shot. Shooting the break shot with ball in hand can be preferable to some improvised shot like that from an awkward place in the kitchen.

If you're serious about 14.1 the foul into the back of the stack is a shot you need to learn. You can go 2 rails or one, depending on where your cueball starts from.

The idea is to knock out a couple of balls from the side of the rack. That way, the opponent cannot put you back up table by fouling. He then has to protect from those couple of balls when he safes you or takes a foul. Naturally he can just foul by tapping the cueball, but usually he will leave some kind of shot to get back to the back of the stack. This is also a position you should practise now and then to get a feel for how to play it. When you get left awkward, masse and pique skills will serve you well and can put the pressure right back on your opponent. In general I don't think people practise these scenarios a lot, especially those people who only play the occational tournament and don't play the game regularly, but they should.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... The idea is to knock out a couple of balls from the side of the rack. That way, the opponent cannot put you back up table by fouling. ...

Exactly. I have seen a top player shoot the first safe too softly and he then found himself stuck to the middle of the head rail. The other side of this, of course, is that you have to know how to get to the middle of the head rail from the bottom of the rack. Four rails is one good way.

 

[alstl]

I'm guessing Lassiter was hoping Jersey Red would make a mistake. It's unfortunate the rest of the safety battle wasn't on the video. Crane went two rails into the back of the rack at the beginning of his safety battle with Balsis.

Mosconi pointed out Jersey Red played the wrong safety. Should have pocketed the ball in the corner and then hit the ball above the corner ball driving a ball to the foot rail. There was interesting safety play in Sigel vs Reyes. Based upon Efren's choices I'm not sure he completely understood the rules of 14.1.

 

[gerard soriano]

Let's play this out. After Lassiter fouls, Lassiter takes a seat, and Breit gets out of his seat, and he aims the CB towards the end rail and banks the CB back up table leaving it on the right hand side of the kitchen(viewed from the rack)--a foul. Once again, I don't think Lassiter has a shot, so once again Lassiter banks the CB into the back of the rack? Is Lassiter hoping that a ball pops free preventing Breit from sending the CB back up table again? Even then, can't Breit just essentially tap the top of the CB, leaving Lassiter frozen to the rack and on two fouls?

( Even then, can't Breit just essentially tap the top of the CB, leaving Lassiter frozen to the rack and on two fouls?)
I don;t know if the rule has changed but tapping the top of the cue ball is a 16 point foul.
Dallas West v Efren match years ago Dallas West called the ref and I believe the ref had to go to the rule book but West was correct about the rule

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I don;t know if the rule has changed but tapping the top of the cue ball is a 16 point foul.
Dallas West v Efren match years ago Dallas West called the ref and I believe the ref had to go to the rule book but West was correct about the rule

You have to shoot with the tip of your cue and a forward motion of the cue stick. I believe Efren "shot" with his ferrule.

 

[JusticeNJ]

You have to shoot with the tip of your cue and a forward motion of the cue stick. I believe Efren "shot" with his ferrule.

Right. He tapped it with the ferrule intentionally.

 

[gerard soriano]

You have to shoot with the tip of your cue and a forward motion of the cue stick. I believe Efren "shot" with his ferrule.

Correct !