What Happened to Justin Bergman?

Nick B said:
What my brother said. Lets take the current crop out. Lets take a stroll down memory lane. Go back 20 years (pre SVB) and look at the Top 10 of USA pool. What are they doing now? Did they make enough to be set for balance of life? Did they transition into something more stable. Were they able to leverage their notoriety into a cushy gig?

This game doesn't pay that well. Hopefully MR and others can bring in enough $$$ to make it a worthwhile endeavor for say the Top 100. Right now unless your young and supported it's a poor investment. Hell you can't even parlay it into a College Scholarship.
Click to expand...

^THIS^ is an excellent observation and summation of current state of pro billiards today.

Unless and until the really big money sponsors - the Tobacco, Alcohol, Automobile, and, Insurance industries etc - get back into advertising via sponsoring large purses, and, the TV networks hype these contests, one is much better off seeking financial rewards based on their advanced skill-level, on a part-time basis in cash money games in local rooms and halls - and, forego risking the airfares and hotel bills, for embarrassing low rewards when compared to other promoted and sponsored sporting contests. - GJ
 
MachineGunKelly said:
I'll start by saying I'm a fan of Justin's. Played him at the Derby a few years back and he was amazing in every way play, sportsmanship etc. However I don't buy into the whole "travel is to expensive" or "no money to be made". Early this year Fedor made 91k at 3 different tournaments all within 5 hours "driving time" of Justin's hometown. I know Justin doesn't play at Fedor's current speed but there was still plenty of money to be made close to home for Justin.
Click to expand...
Prizemoney roughly double as you go up each placing
So even though JB is below Gorst level, can JB consistently finish at least quarterfinalist (last 8) to win about $11K to cover expenses for the 3 events ? :D

estpm.JPG
 
It is totally ridiculous to look at the number one player in the world, cherry pick a period of record performance, and then use that to calculate the hourly earnings of a top 50 player. I can’t believe some of you are on the level.

Anyone who wants to prove me wrong can call Bergman and offer 25k to back him in a series of 8 tournaments.

The real reason the #11-#1,000 ranked players compete is for the love of the game and to test themselves. They are losing money and years of their life to do so. I understand why they would make that choice, but I understand why many don’t.

Another way to look at it is why don’t you all go play a series of pro tournaments? You can sign up for the us open. JB plays good but his chances of turning a profit aren’t that much higher than yours.
 
A lot of truth here about the difficulty of making a living playing pool. After the top ten or twelve players there are a bunch of players who grind out a living giving lessons, selling merchandise/running a pro shop, being a house pro, and yes playing in the regional tournaments where they can pick up a thou or two for a good finish with less expense incurred.

Then there are the guys who wise up and see how well the owners/operators of the rooms they are playing in are doing, and the good living they are making. They drive nice cars and live in their own homes. Some of these players then aspire to have a room of their own. That phenomena has been going on as long as I've been around the game. I was one of those guys a long time ago, trying to grind out a living playing $5 and $10 9-Ball and $20 One Pocket. That gets old quick and for me it all changed at the age of 27 when I bought my first poolroom. I never wanted to go looking for games again. Let them come to me!

I see where Joey Gray just opened up his new room and I wish him the best of luck. Even in this computer age he will do well if he runs his business properly. It is people like Joey who aren't afraid to build a brand new poolroom who will keep our game alive. If you have such ambition I say go for it! Do not believe all the naysayers who say it cannot be done. It can! And no, you don't have to own the building. That is another fallacy that is foisted on you. There is ample vacant space and willing landlords who own the space that will accommodate you. The key is to get a good lease, where you control the space for a long period of time, long enough to build a good business and can make a nice living for a number of years. Five to ten years in a profitable poolroom and you will be in a good place financially.

A good lease will number one allow you some free time (at least three months) to set up and build out your business before you begin to pay rent. Number two the landlord will help you with things like installing restrooms and a proper kitchen set up. They may even remove obstructions inside the space to accommodate your pool tables. This is called Tenant Improvements. A good lease should be anywhere from ten to fifteen years long and broken up into renewable options at a set price. For instance I had one lease on a 7,200 square foot building that was five years long, with two additional five year options. I could have that place for fifteen years before needing to renew my lease. That was a strong lease! My last lease at Hollywood Park was three years with 2 three year options, so I was good for nine years which was very acceptable to me. One other thing to be aware of is who is responsible for maintenance of the building. Typically the landlord is responsible for anything outside the walls, including the roof and everything on top of it, like AC and heating equipment. You do not want the responsiblility of maintaining this equipment! Everything else inside the building is your responsibility, like electrical outlets, interior plumbing, etc.

The second thing that is equally necessary is being able to get the required licensing from the city you are in to rent pool tables, sell food & beer/wine, have video games and a jukebox, and any other licenses you deem necessary. Without all the licenses you are dead in the water and need to find a new location.

I like seeing some of the current generation of players who have been around awhile, who have the ambition to start their own business. Pool is not going away, but we need ambitious people to keep it alive and well. These guys and gals who are in their 30's and 40's now are the perfect age to start their own business. They have both experience and youth going for them. They have seen what a successful room looks like and have an idea what to do. So once again I say go for it! It will not be easy, there is a lot of hard work and long hours involved, but it will be worth it when you see your bank account grow.
 
Last edited:
Tin Man said:
It is totally ridiculous to look at the number one player in the world, cherry pick a period of record performance, and then use that to calculate the hourly earnings of a top 50 player. I can’t believe some of you are on the level.

Anyone who wants to prove me wrong can call Bergman and offer 25k to back him in a series of 8 tournaments.

The real reason the #11-#1,000 ranked players compete is for the love of the game and to test themselves. They are losing money and years of their life to do so. I understand why they would make that choice, but I understand why many don’t.

Another way to look at it is why don’t you all go play a series of pro tournaments? You can sign up for the us open. JB plays good but his chances of turning a profit aren’t that much higher than yours.
Click to expand...
I think you missed the point. Its said that JB doesn't want to travel and play because pool doesn't pay. I "cherry" picked 3 events very close to JB's hometown that paid well. Just happens to be that the same guy won most of the money. Not comparing him to Fedor. Fedor has won 200k this year. I didn't mention that in the previous post. Just pointing out there was a ton of money to be won within an half's day drive of JB. To my knowledge JB didn't play in any of the events I mentioned.
 
MachineGunKelly said:
I think you missed the point. Its said that JB doesn't want to travel and play because pool doesn't pay. I "cherry" picked 3 events very close to JB's hometown that paid well. Just happens to be that the same guy won most of the money. Not comparing him to Fedor. Fedor has won 200k this year. I didn't mention that in the previous post. Just pointing out there was a ton of money to be won within an half's day drive of JB. To my knowledge JB didn't play in any of the events I mentioned.
Click to expand...
I've noticed this too and often wondered how come.... I'll read about or discover a tournament online within a four hour drive of the home of a top player(s) only to see that said top player did not participate which always strikes me as odd for someone who is a "pro". I totally understand guys forgoing long trips involving flying, particularly overseas, as breaking even is super difficult.

With that being said, how are all these Europeans who frequent tournaments in USA making ends meet? It's cool that the bigger tournaments in USA attract such an international crowd though don't understand how the international crowd is staying afloat financially excluding the Top 5 or so. Is a fascinating pursuit becoming a pool "pro"; so opposite of what one finds in mainstream sports where the money is ridiculous.
 
Even though I participated in this thread, it really is of poor taste. The man can do what he wants with his talent and life. Period. Full stop. A lot of this junk is really offside. Garbage about substance abuse and desire are nobodies business. What I would do if I was JB is not some sort of magic. A bunch of us have this romantic/nostalgic vision of what life on the road is like. I travel for business. In fact right now I write this from a Hilton in Cincinnati. Guess what I'm not doing? Flew here. Ate well. Nobody else in my room and more importantly my shareholders will be paying for everything and I don't have to make a pressure filled shot(s) against another killer to walk out with a small payday. The road can get tiring. Even when you fly business class. My wife thinks it's all Fluffed Pillows and Rose peddles and pokes at me when I complain.

If JB wants to stay home and play the locals...it's his call. The rest of us should stay out of his business and choices.

And yes he's a hell of a player and probably TOP 3 American.
 
Just because someone is world-class talented at something doesn't necessarily mean that that is the number one priority/focus in their lives.
Pool is a game, not a lifestyle.
 
One of the biggest problems for U.S. players, just so happens to be one of our nation's greatest attributes -- we are very welcoming of foreigners, especially skilled ones. It's next to impossible to attend even a regional event and not see a few foreign champions sprinkled among the field. Is this really something that happens in other parts of the world? I think I know the answer to this question, and it certainly makes it more possible to climb up the ranks when you don't reside in the U.S. At least that's my theory.

Here, try playing in a regional bar box event and see how many foreign champions are in the field. Don't get me wrong, I don't fault them for playing and I enjoy seeing them play too but it makes me wonder. It's just much more difficult for US players than it was before the game became global.

***Edit to add***

It used to be, you could say to yourself, "If I can just get as good as Roanoke Rob, then I'll be set". Now, you can't plan on anything. It's just like Tin Man says, you're either discouraged from playing outright (via Fargo caps or what-not), or you may have to actually beat a world champion just to win a regional event.
 
Last edited:
MachineGunKelly said:
I think you missed the point. Its said that JB doesn't want to travel and play because pool doesn't pay. I "cherry" picked 3 events very close to JB's hometown that paid well. Just happens to be that the same guy won most of the money. Not comparing him to Fedor. Fedor has won 200k this year. I didn't mention that in the previous post. Just pointing out there was a ton of money to be won within an half's day drive of JB. To my knowledge JB didn't play in any of the events I mentioned.
Click to expand...
Thanks MGK. I read a number of posts and my reply wasn't fair to your comment. I appreciate your explanation.

I can speak a little to why a player might skip even tournaments with a positive return. I used to play a lot of bar table 8 ball in my home town. They had open, non-handicapped tournaments. I won my share. Not all of them by any means, but quite a number. They were filling 64 man and even 128 man brackets with good players, race to 5, non-handicap. I was playing 2-3 a month and winning almost one a month on the local and regional level.

First came divisions, then handicaps, then fargo caps. It got to be where instead of winning 10 tournaments a year I was being either blasted out of tournaments by extreme handicaps or forbidden from entering at all. When they did have an occasional open tournament it was a special deal, a 'high roller' event. We'd get the same group of 5 players signing up with a few shot takers, rounding out the field at 8-10, so it was a fight against the best for dismal prize money.

It got to the point where I was playing very little bar table 8 ball. I'd go 3-6 months at a time without an opportunity to compete. Then they'd have a good open tournament and I'd jump up and play. The problem is that it had been so long since I'd played bar table 8 ball my game was off. Patterns weren't looking as clear, I wasn't in the right rhythm. I went through this for 2-3 years, not having chances to compete, then getting a shot and playing my B game.

I decided I needed to either play more, or I needed to play less. I couldn't play more. So I decided to play less. I quit bar table pool entirely and no longer compete in my home state. The market spoke and said they don't want top local players winning too many tournaments. I respect that. I'll go compete where I'm wanted. And frankly they aren't wrong. I'd rather compete in the biggest events and struggle and lose than win local events on bar tables. So I'm happy, and the MN players are happy.

Getting back to JB. At some point it gets fatiguing. Can't make money competing in the biggest fields against the world's best, not allowed to compete in the local and regional stuff without prohibitive handicaps. It's almost like God came down from the sky and said "I don't want you to play competitive pool." At some point you've just gotten tired of the fight. Then, one day, a good tournament comes along and you are totally out of stroke and out of competitive focus. You're supposed to just jump up and be excited to get to play once?

To use another analogy suppose you had a wife that wasn't in the mood for 3 years, then one day on your birthday she offers a pity lay. Would it be understandable that the husband wouldn't respond with enthusiasm and love? Odds are he's been seeing someone else for the last two years and just doesn't want to make things official and be cut out of his kids life.

Point is, many pool players are at that point. They've been taught repeatedly that they aren't going to be allowed to win money playing this game. Most of them fought for years trying to improve their skills, tournament select, outrun the odds, overcome it with brute force and sheer willpower. Finally they are middle aged and broken and feel totally sidelined and almost betrayed by the game, the promoters, and the other players. They've had enough and just keep to themselves and hit balls on their own terms. I've seen this many, many times.

I'm not saying that's where JB is at. I'm not there either. I love this game and simply don't care about the finances. I look at it as the best hobby in the world but the stupidest living in the world. I choose hobby. But for many players who tried to make it their living they may indeed have some reluctance to jump back in the hamster wheel again.
 
if his decision is about the money he is spot on.
you can get a day job and make 60 to a hundred thousand a year and not have to travel and pay your own way.
and only a few with a good year do that.

those that cant. think missing out on coming in the money in tournaments means something. it doesnt.
even if the tournament is driving distance away.

you should applaud him for finding his way in life that is to his liking. he isnt here on earth to entertain other pool players.
 
Tin Man said:
This comes up often. People inquire about why a great player isn't competing. The thing is it isn't surprising that they don't travel and compete anymore, what's surprising is how many people still do.

Unless you are a top 10 in the world pool is an unbeatable game that pays almost nothing even if you do win something. You might as well ask why more people don't play the Crane Game at the front of a Perkins Restaurant for a living: "What do you do for a living?" "Me, I play the Perkins crane game." (Lowers voice to whisper) "One time I hooked me a stuffed octopus!"

People can talk about Matchroom and Predator being good for pool players, but it doesn't really change the landscape for anyone other than the very, very top. It doesn't trickle down. Yes, the top 10 have more events with more prize money. But for everyone else in the fields it is the same story. Look at Tyler, he turned in a great performance, beat Fedor, made a good run. He won $3,000 which about covers his expenses. That's not even breaking even if you consider opportunity cost, he essentially put in a week of hard work for free.

I'm not complaining, whining, criticizing Matchroom, or taking shots at Tyler or Justin or anyone that isn't in the top 10. Not at all. Tyler is doing just fine because he has some endorsements, earns additional income from pool instruction, and he doesn't have a family to support at this time. He's having a blast and doing amazing. Matchroom is doing great to give pool fans an opportunity to see the world's best compete regularly. Everything is good. I'm just trying to explain why many great players choose to sit out.

If that answer is too long, you can just do what another top player did when people would ask him "Why aren't you playing the (fill in the blank) event?" He got so tired of explaining this he'd just respond by asking "Do you want to back me?" So maybe ask if you'd like to back Justin for travel and entry and expenses to 10 major events in 2023. If you don't like that as a financial investment, realize that's the same investment he'd have to make, not to mention the cost of taking 10-12 weeks off to actually play.
Click to expand...
One of the best written posts in quite a while. And we hear this argument a lot, but from what I've seen the evidence doesn't really back it up as even low level pros have pretty decent quality of life unless they are incredibly irresponsible.

As just a few examples what I see is that they can afford to buy pool halls, eat out all the time (and not cheap fast food either), play lots of golf or have other expensive hobbies, and you could go on and on. They are far from having the lifestyle of the poor. Half of America couldn't afford to buy a pool hall, or even manage to get the financing or backing for one either. Half of America can't afford to be constantly participating in expensive hobbies like golf. Half of America can't afford to be eating out all the time. You aren't hurting too bad if you are eating out every day and playing golf several times a week I can promise you, yet there are low level pros doing just that and equivalent.

I think one of the big mistakes we make is that we only want to count their income from the majors and ignore the rest of their income and income opportunities. They do or can make money from tons of available events from the local to the regional to the national level, teaching, having sponsors, gambling (and their opponents often even intentionally take the worst of it just for the opportunity to play a pro and in deference to them), running tournaments/tours/leagues, being a house pro, etc, and they also get a lots and lots of things for free or bought for them or given to them simply because they are a pro (everything from food and drinks to to trips).

All of these things are available (or much more available and/or on better terms) simply because of their playing ability and are part of the "compensation package" that must be considered, just like how with every other job you have to take the value of the "total compensation package" to include all the extra bonuses and perks into consideration and not just look at the "base pay" from the few majors (and yes of course you have to factor in expenses as well). Tony Robles in an interview recently said that he has lived a good quality of life and has never once struggled to pay a bill, and as most know he would be considered to be a lower level pro. All the pros with some work ethic and responsibility seem to live at least half decent lives from what I can tell, and those opportunities were afforded to them because of their playing level even if their income didn't all come directly as winnings in major events. Most aren't rich (although some have done incredibly well), but few or none would have to be out of the middle class either.
 
Last edited:
MachineGunKelly said:
Fedor won 60k at the Derby. That's an 8 hour round trip (4hrs each way) from St. louis. If a Pro pool player isn't willing to drive 8hrs for a shot at that kind of money, it is time for another career.
Click to expand...
Fedor's odds are in his favor-98% of pros, 3K or under would be an average tourny.
 
Didn't read the whole thread (which at first glance, looks like it may have took a nasty turn in places) but Bergman is at The Players Club in St. Louis taking on all-comers as far as I know. Not just local shortstops, either. Including Fedor Gorst.
 
Nostroke said:
Fedor's odds are in his favor-98% of pros, 3K or under would be an average tourny.
Click to expand...
You missed the point. This has never been about Fedor. Its about the opportunity to win/make a lot of money very close to his hometown. Also I would give you action on JB winning less than 3k if he played all events at Derby.
 
BTW, let's not forget that this is not only about Bergman. There are plenty of pro speed players in this country that do not pursue pro pool some of the others do. Dechaine, Sossei and Pinegar come to mind. Those guys are rock solid in everything they do but have decided not to get after it, which is fine and noone should question their decisions.
 
its all about the money and the payouts. they are top heavy and only a select few walk away with the cash.
the rest are there for their ego. a couple thousand winnings for a trip isnt enough to pay the bills and leave your pocket well off.
and that is the crumbs left for the great players that arent in the top ten of the tournaments.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top