What If There Were A Player Stock Market?

JCIN

TheActionReport.com
Gold Member
I was talking to Greg Sullivan about a rough idea he had that I think in theory is pretty interesting. Reading JB's thread got to me thinking more about it and I decided it needed its own thread so as not to derail his so here it is:

In broad strokes:

What if there was a market where a player could enter and say "I an interested in a stake for XYZ event."

At that point any interested investors could bid on the the percentage they would stake that player for. People would bid by saying what percentage they would expect of any winnings.

Player A is a multiple US Open winner.

Player B is a strong regional player coming up.

Both put in to get staked for the US Open 10 Ball in July.

People bid on the percentage to put them in.

Player A is popular and an established star. He may very well get people bidding to put him in for very little percentage just as form of support or to feel a part of the event. Say the winning bid is 20% for Player A. Meaning he gets the entry paid and keeps 80% of winnings.

Now its not so rosy for Player B. He is the dark horse but you might get one guy or a corporation to decide for the right price they would take a shot so they bid 75%. Now if Player B accepts then he can only win 25% of whatever payout he gets. Not so fun BUT it could very well Player B to play in some events he otherwise never would.

An interesting thing to me is this could have the side effect of generating sponsors for lack of a better word. If a company could have a shot at a liquid return on a sponsorship it might entice them to put more money behind players instead of another ad in a magazine.

Obviously there would be lots of details and pitfalls. But we all know people who like to have a little something to sweat at a big event. I think that there is an actual possibility for something in this idea if it were to hashed out and managed right. It could be kind of exciting to see. Basically a player stock market.

My view on some basics:

The player would be responsible for all travel. Everyone has to get work.

If a player no show's or doesnt pay out the agreed upon amount he is out of the market forever.

There is no "off the top" for the backer. Its a straight percentage cut of the winnings. Everyone knows staking is no good as an investment. This whole enterprise is to generate excitement and interest in players and events with backers/sponsors having a chance to make a little back.

It could all be run through AZ or a stand alone site if they are not interested. Whoever runs it could opt to charge a fee to players or bidders for using it but I think making it free to all is the only way it could work.

There would have to be some means of arbitration and contracts I think.

I realize the chances are slim something like this would ever get off the ground but I do think it is interesting and if done correctly by the right people could work and offer players a way to soften the blow of expenses and fans a way to be invested in events.

Opinions?
 
I don't see much of a problem getting AZ's to bid on just the entry fees for a tournament. Top would be about $500-$600. I think the major problem will be getting the better players to ask, as most are looking for the whole package(travel, motel, food, and other). I would bid on most good players that have showed they can cash in the past, if entry fee only. Johnnyt
 
The concept is innovative and interesting. It holds promise.

I do envision, however, that savers might be something to consider, as savers happen all the time at tournaments.
 
I'm always intrigued by new ideas....

I know you just provided a simple example. But I think the first time the B player who's only getting 25% gets into the cash portion of a tourney and plays someone he knows well. They quickly figure out the math and do an agreement to dump. What happens then?

1. Investors feel he was "so close" and continue to back him even though he is a dump artist.
2. Word gets out he is a dump artist, so he is out of the market forever.
3. Rumors start to spread that others are dumping (correct or not) and this quickly dissolves into another bad venture for pool.

The friend scenario plays out all the time at calcutta's, doesn't it? So it could be a real happening.

But I do always love new ideas and would like to see something start and succeed. Maybe it's just a big tourney fantasy league someday.
 
I was talking to Greg Sullivan about a rough idea he had that I think in theory is pretty interesting. Reading JB's thread got to me thinking more about it and I decided it needed its own thread so as not to derail his so here it is:

In broad strokes:

What if there was a market where a player could enter and say "I an interested in a stake for XYZ event."

At that point any interested investors could bid on the the percentage they would stake that player for. People would bid by saying what percentage they would expect of any winnings.

Player A is a multiple US Open winner.

Player B is a strong regional player coming up.

Both put in to get staked for the US Open 10 Ball in July.

People bid on the percentage to put them in.

Player A is popular and an established star. He may very well get people bidding to put him in for very little percentage just as form of support or to feel a part of the event. Say the winning bid is 20% for Player A. Meaning he gets the entry paid and keeps 80% of winnings.

Now its not so rosy for Player B. He is the dark horse but you might get one guy or a corporation to decide for the right price they would take a shot so they bid 75%. Now if Player B accepts then he can only win 25% of whatever payout he gets. Not so fun BUT it could very well Player B to play in some events he otherwise never would.

An interesting thing to me is this could have the side effect of generating sponsors for lack of a better word. If a company could have a shot at a liquid return on a sponsorship it might entice them to put more money behind players instead of another ad in a magazine.

Obviously there would be lots of details and pitfalls. But we all know people who like to have a little something to sweat at a big event. I think that there is an actual possibility for something in this idea if it were to hashed out and managed right. It could be kind of exciting to see. Basically a player stock market.

My view on some basics:

The player would be responsible for all travel. Everyone has to get work.

If a player no show's or doesnt pay out the agreed upon amount he is out of the market forever.

There is no "off the top" for the backer. Its a straight percentage cut of the winnings. Everyone knows staking is no good as an investment. This whole enterprise is to generate excitement and interest in players and events with backers/sponsors having a chance to make a little back.

It could all be run through AZ or a stand alone site if they are not interested. Whoever runs it could opt to charge a fee to players or bidders for using it but I think making it free to all is the only way it could work.

There would have to be some means of arbitration and contracts I think.

I realize the chances are slim something like this would ever get off the ground but I do think it is interesting and if done correctly by the right people could work and offer players a way to soften the blow of expenses and fans a way to be invested in events.

Opinions?

Makes for a great conversation with adult beverage(s).

But in the world of pool players, fans, stake horses, events, this would never have a chance to happen.

Then you have folks who don't even pay off after the tournament (ie US Open), Pool Person of the Year by Billiards Digest Kevin Therou, and others.

Moreover, there isn't any money IF they win, and beyond the top 5 guys who the hell would want a piece of that?

Calcuttas are a lot like what you suggesting. They are usually a bad deal unless you do the "Cesaer Morales" deal, (where you bring a top flight player in as an unknown). Or you feel like you have a lock to win, place or show.

Ken
 
I don't see much of a problem getting AZ's to bid on just the entry fees for a tournament. Top would be about $500-$600. I think the major problem will be getting the better players to ask, as most are looking for the whole package(travel, motel, food, and other). I would bid on most good players that have showed they can cash in the past, if entry fee only. Johnnyt

Good points.

I can see where a great player might put in for a tournament he can drive to like SBE or Derby depending on where he lives. At that point he is getting a free roll essentially if he gets a deal he likes. The beauty of the market concept is if a player doesnt get what he feels is fair then he has no obligation. Same for the investors. Its quite possible very few matches would be made.

It would be interesting to sweat though.
 
Makes for a great conversation with adult beverage(s).

But in the world of pool players, fans, stake horses, events, this would never have a chance to happen.

Then you have folks who don't even pay off after the tournament (ie US Open), Pool Person of the Year by Billiards Digest Kevin Therou, and others.

Moreover, there isn't any money IF they win, and beyond the top 5 guys who the hell would want a piece of that?

Calcuttas are a lot like what you suggesting. They are usually a bad deal unless you do the "Cesaer Morales" deal, (where you bring a top flight player in as an unknown). Or you feel like you have a lock to win, place or show.

Ken

If you look at this as strictly a way to make money of course it makes no sense. From that point of view staking a player makes no sense. Sponsoring a player makes no sense but both of them happen at every event. We are talking about $200-$500. You can spend that in a night out very easily. If it is a big deal to someone my suggestion would be thats an indicator its not for them.

Its really very simple. If someone screws someone over they are out forever. So yes at some point someone will get the short end of the stick. Explain to me how that is any different from any other day in pool and I'll grant your point. This way if a guy is a scumbag its made very public for all to see.
 
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What you are describing sounds more like a bond issue than an equities market. A group of underwriters get together and determine the conditions and terms of the issue. There is an internal auction where members and subgroups bid on how many of the bonds their group will take. They take the bonds and sell them. Their incentive in doing this is they get a commission on the bonds they sell. The rest is put into the bond pool.

One problem I see is that what you are creating is a debt instrument. When a player accepts a bond he is incurring a debt and we all know debt is kryptonite to a pool player.

Still there may be something to this idea. I will give it some thought. You will know when you have got it right when the SEC comes knocking on your door demanding their fees.
 
I like the idea and something that could be considered is putting together an AZ Bonus Ball team. Just like in all major sports the players get drafted and get paid a % of there winnings AZ would get there % and the fans can add there impute on picking players and over all it helps the sport.
 
I know you just provided a simple example. But I think the first time the B player who's only getting 25% gets into the cash portion of a tourney and plays someone he knows well. They quickly figure out the math and do an agreement to dump. What happens then?

1. Investors feel he was "so close" and continue to back him even though he is a dump artist.
2. Word gets out he is a dump artist, so he is out of the market forever.
3. Rumors start to spread that others are dumping (correct or not) and this quickly dissolves into another bad venture for pool.

The friend scenario plays out all the time at calcutta's, doesn't it? So it could be a real happening.

But I do always love new ideas and would like to see something start and succeed. Maybe it's just a big tourney fantasy league someday.

It has been proven through history there is nothing man can invent that some pool player somewhere can not ruin for everyone else. Accepting that it then becomes part of the equation for the investors. If a guy has a shady rep it makes it less likely anyone is going to take a risk. If he has a solid rep he will get better offers. If a guy no shows a match or a tournament or doesnt pay out his cut then he is out.

The only thing 100% certain is that nothing is perfect. I think it could be a interesting and fun way to generate some talk about pool and tournaments instead of what has been going on around here for the last couple months. It might also give some players another option to help beat some expenses or get to an event they might not otherwise go to.
 
JCIN

Its done in poker all the time. Check out the 2+2 forum and there is a section for staking players for events.

It might give you some ideas as to how to fine tune your thoughts with your idea.
 
I like the idea but I would want some kind of agreement with the tournaments to keep the obligation of paying out of the players hand. In other words, I'd hate to buy a mid-level player for 75% and they snap off a $25,000 tourney and decide to skip town with my $18,750.
 
Is there some part of this that will encourage people to stake players, who otherwise would not?
Right now anyone can come onto AZ and ask for a stake, and get multiple replies,
and then make agreements on repaying the stake. So if someone takes the time to make it all formal and organized, there should be some hook that gets people involved who otherwise would sit out.

What would the hook be? Maybe the public / transparent nature of the stock market?
Someone who got burned might be more willing to stake a player in the public AZ market.

Or maybe the appeal is that you can see people getting into bidding wars over a player,
and see that there are limited "slots" left to buy in?

It sounds like an online version of a calcutta, would there be any legal issues?
 
Is there some part of this that will encourage people to stake players, who otherwise would not?
Right now anyone can come onto AZ and ask for a stake, and get multiple replies,
and then make agreements on repaying the stake. So if someone takes the time to make it all formal and organized, there should be some hook that gets people involved who otherwise would sit out.

What would the hook be? Maybe the public / transparent nature of the stock market?
Someone who got burned might be more willing to stake a player in the public AZ market.

Or maybe the appeal is that you can see people getting into bidding wars over a player,
and see that there are limited "slots" left to buy in?

It sounds like an online version of a calcutta, would there be any legal issues?

No clue on the legal issues.

I am not going to do this. It was just something that I thought sounded interesting and would make for a good discussion. My gut says it would get bogged down in the details but I find it fun to try and see where the problems are and what could be done to solve them.

To answer Vette's question regarding payouts Cleary had a good idea in that the "stock market" for lack of a better term could act as the middle man for the deals. So the market would actually put the player in and get the payout from the tournament then pay out all parties according to the deal they made. It adds a level of complexity but would solve a big problem.
 
I was talking to Greg Sullivan about a rough idea he had that I think in theory is pretty interesting. Reading JB's thread got to me thinking more about it and I decided it needed its own thread so as not to derail his so here it is:

In broad strokes:

What if there was a market where a player could enter and say "I an interested in a stake for XYZ event."

At that point any interested investors could bid on the the percentage they would stake that player for. People would bid by saying what percentage they would expect of any winnings.

Player A is a multiple US Open winner.

Player B is a strong regional player coming up.

Both put in to get staked for the US Open 10 Ball in July.

People bid on the percentage to put them in.

Player A is popular and an established star. He may very well get people bidding to put him in for very little percentage just as form of support or to feel a part of the event. Say the winning bid is 20% for Player A. Meaning he gets the entry paid and keeps 80% of winnings.

Now its not so rosy for Player B. He is the dark horse but you might get one guy or a corporation to decide for the right price they would take a shot so they bid 75%. Now if Player B accepts then he can only win 25% of whatever payout he gets. Not so fun BUT it could very well Player B to play in some events he otherwise never would.

An interesting thing to me is this could have the side effect of generating sponsors for lack of a better word. If a company could have a shot at a liquid return on a sponsorship it might entice them to put more money behind players instead of another ad in a magazine.

Obviously there would be lots of details and pitfalls. But we all know people who like to have a little something to sweat at a big event. I think that there is an actual possibility for something in this idea if it were to hashed out and managed right. It could be kind of exciting to see. Basically a player stock market.

My view on some basics:

The player would be responsible for all travel. Everyone has to get work.

If a player no show's or doesnt pay out the agreed upon amount he is out of the market forever.

There is no "off the top" for the backer. Its a straight percentage cut of the winnings. Everyone knows staking is no good as an investment. This whole enterprise is to generate excitement and interest in players and events with backers/sponsors having a chance to make a little back.

It could all be run through AZ or a stand alone site if they are not interested. Whoever runs it could opt to charge a fee to players or bidders for using it but I think making it free to all is the only way it could work.

There would have to be some means of arbitration and contracts I think.

I realize the chances are slim something like this would ever get off the ground but I do think it is interesting and if done correctly by the right people could work and offer players a way to soften the blow of expenses and fans a way to be invested in events.

Opinions?


Poker pros did this, there are websites where you could buy a piece of a player, from $50 and up. maybe even low as $20. I saw a few of these sites in Chicago in a biz meeting last june2012, I cant recall the sites name's now, they were strong. I will call my friend and get the names of a couple of them, there was some legal issues with them as I recall, why not it's America land of the free-sure....
 
On the poker forums action is sold like crazy (listed above) and certain players deduct a percentage for the taxes they'll pay on any wins also

I guarantee any strong player who needs backing would EASILY be able to get staked if they got in touch with one of the regulars from the action room here. Tons of money changing hands daily and many of us would take a shot or build a corporation into staking players for big events. Just recently Larry Nevel (USBTC) was staked by I believe JumpinJoe DannyB78 and one other I think.

This is a great idea, just need someone trustworthy to start the ball rolling.
 
here is one of them:


http://www.atlanticpokerfund.com/


this is not one of the good ones i saw last year, kind of the same idea. the one I saw had a board and players names up. you could make a deposit and then spread the $$$ around on which ever player you wanted and what event, you would get paid based on their performance for that event, the players were getting around 30% as I recall.


I dont think it works in pool. not on ay kind of scale, fun to talk about but it ends there. :(
 
Its really very simple. If someone screws someone over they are out forever. So yes at some point someone will get the short end of the stick. Explain to me how that is any different from any other day in pool and I'll grant your point. This way if a guy is a scumbag its made very public for all to see.

I'm sure you weren't implying "savors" as making somebody a scumbag. It's the nature of the beast. The prize money is so weak that near the end there are big differences in cash. Virtually every player in the game has probably made a savor at one time or another. It is their business and if they are getting staked obviously it should come out of their end of the money. Simple math would tell the investor if they got screwed out of money or not.
 
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this was the good one, I saw last year:

Strategic Poker Investments (SPI)

its a re-direct to something else, like I said I think they caught a beef. the redirect site sucks from what i saw in 5 seconds,

now i'm really done.....
 
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