What is a "Center Cut" Shaft?

GBCues

GBCues

Damn, still .002 TIR!
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Guys,
I was playing in a tournament yesterday and a friend introduced me to her boyfriend who asked me if I made "center cut" shafts. I told him I hadn't ever heard the term and I don't ever remember seeing that term used here. He said he heard it was supposed to make a better shaft, yada, yada, yada.

Anybody know what he's talking about?

Thanks :thumbup:
Gary
 
Bob Meucci video on maple shafts

Take a look at this video dealing with shafts made from different parts of the maple tree. It's presented by Bob Meucci on his website.

See "Meucci Video Lectures" at the bottom of this page. It's the middle lecture.

http://www.meuccicues.com/video.html
 
@Joey: That was my first thought.

@Steve: Hmmm . . . you seem to have something in mind that you're not sharing, and that's OK too - you've sent me some nice shaft wood in the past that I tend to use for my more expensive cues.

Overall, given the lack of replies, I'm tending towards a "marketing hype" hypothesis.

As always, "THANKS GUYS"
:thumbup:
Gary
 
DoubleD said:
For sure, especially in this case. I've never heard so much BS in my life.

For sure, I guarantee that bending the shaft slightly toward the red dot will take the EXACT same amount of 'pressure' (as Bobby calls it, I'd call it 'force') as bending it away from the the dot (i.e. 180 degrees to each other).

What a dillhole.

dld
Click to expand...

I was just being polite for a change. I've had low ring count shafts that were very stiff, and high ring count shafts that were noodles. Bob is Bob and part of the pool experience. I've heard the term used before, but have no idea what it means.
 
My guess is cut from toward the center of the log which would make it a stronger and overall hold from warping and such? Just a little guess though .
 
FOR LOOKS OR FOR PLAY ABILITY ON SHAFT WOOD SELECTION ?
Center cut? >>>> Play ability?
High ring count >>>>> Play ability?
Low ring count >>>>> Play ability?
White shaft >>>> Play ability?
Brown sugar shaft >>>> Play ability?

IMOP today shaft woods its hard to find good quality once. But for sure this will be the first I heard center cut shaft woods. I do agreed with Steve in some high ring count plays like noodle. Low ring count play stiff.
 
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FLYINGSNAIL said:
FOR LOOKS OR FOR PLAY ABILITY ON SHAFT WOOD SELECTION ?
Center cut? >>>> Play ability?
High ring count >>>>> Play ability?
Low ring count >>>>> Play ability?
White shaft >>>> Play ability?
Brown sugar shaft >>>> Play ability?

IMOP today shaft woods its hard to find good quality once. But for sure this will be the first I heard center cut shaft woods. I do agreed with Steve in some high ring count plays like noodle. Low ring count play stiff.
Click to expand...


http://theactionreport.com/Gina.html
Around 21:00 or so Ernie talks shafts.
24:00 he talks about white and dark shafts.
 
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If he means the exact center of the tree was used for the shaft that would be rare as the heart of a maple tree is usually ugly.
If he means the shaft's turning centers were aligned and drilled along the same growth ring line before cutting it, that might have some merit.
If he means that the shaft square was not machine doweled, but was cut between centers with above method that might also have merit.
 
Hi,

I also agree with Steve that lower rings equates to a stiffer playing shaft. For me 8 to 12 is where I like to be.

Many people miss that fact when they select there shaft wood because the don't see the forest for the trees! Sorry, I could not help my self on that one! LOL.

Rick
 
scdiveteam said:
Hi,

I also agree with Steve that lower rings equates to a stiffer playing shaft. For me 8 to 12 is where I like to be.

Many people miss that fact when they select there shaft wood because the don't see the forest for the trees! Sorry, I could not help my self on that one! LOL.

Rick
Click to expand...

You may be right on your understanding of what Steve meant.
But I took what he said to mean that sometimes low growth rings are stiff and sometimes high growth ring shafts are noodles. I found the same thing goes for weight. Tight grain does not always mean heavier. But as a general rule I have found tighter grain to be heavier and stiffer and the opposite for really low growth ring count. But that is only a general rule. You find both stiff and noodles, light and heavy among both high and low growth ring count shafts.
 
cueman said:
You may be right on your understanding of what Steve meant.
But I took what he said to mean that sometimes low growth rings are stiff and sometimes high growth ring shafts are noodles. I found the same thing goes for weight. Tight grain does not always mean heavier. But as a general rule I have found tighter grain to be heavier and stiffer and the opposite for really low growth ring count. But that is only a general rule. You find both stiff and noodles, light and heavy among both high and low growth ring count shafts.
Click to expand...
That's what I read too.
I've come across ugly 6-8 rpi's that are stiff and heavy.
But, for the most parts, higher rpi's are denser ( NOT ALWAYS OF COURSE ). NOT ALWAYS.
But, if someone has been cutting shaft hundreds and hundreds times and years, you would think he'd come to the same
conclusion.
Unless we're missing something.
I guess rules change according to supply or something.
Low ring count shafts are plentiful. Why not look for 6 rpi's ? Hell, they're cheap and plentiful. You can get them in pallets.
Those who pay good dollar for 8-12 squares from the infamous snake oil salesman ( guess what ring count you're going to get more ) are suckers.
You can get them in sanded dowels without the AAA stories.
If he means the exact center of the tree was used for the shaft that would be rare as the heart of a maple tree is usually ugly.
If he means the shaft's turning centers were aligned and drilled along the same growth ring line before cutting it, that might have some merit.
If he means that the shaft square was not machine doweled, but was cut between centers with above method that might also have merit.
Click to expand...
I agree.
scdiveteam said:
Hi,

I also agree with Steve that lower rings equates to a stiffer playing shaft. For me 8 to 12 is where I like to be.

Many people miss that fact when they select there shaft wood because the don't see the forest for the trees! Sorry, I could not help my self on that one! LOL.

Rick
Click to expand...
Sorry, I don't agree. I like them like in the pic attached here. Pretty white shafts are plentiful from Canada.
These aren't $12 squares with lovely stories.




Pricing

The following table shows our price structure, based on rings per inch and grade.


Ring count Grade
1 2 3 4
7-9 $10 $8 $6 $6
10-12 $14 $12 $8 $7
13-15 $18 $16 $10 $8
16-20 $22 $20 $12 $10
20+ $30 $30 $20 $15[/B][/COLOR]
Lower ring count, lower price from another dealer.
.
 

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cueman said:
But as a general rule I have found tighter grain to be heavier and stiffer and the opposite for really low growth ring count. But that is only a general rule. You find both stiff and noodles, light and heavy among both high and low growth ring count shafts.
Click to expand...


It's nice to see an experienced and knowledgeable supplier who handles more than 50-100 shafts a year make the correct assessment. We've seen know-it-alls come on here in the past, who won't pay more than $3 for a shaft, who barely have $500 in wood inventory nor have they ever seen 1,000 shafts all at once make the most incredible and uncredible statements. Those of us who are familiar with quantites of shaft wood all know that tighter grain almost always equals heaver and denser shaft wood.

For the most part, more growth rings equals denser and heavier shafts. We handle thousands of higher growth ring shafts and most, nearly all are heavier than their lower growth ring counterparts. Of course it takes more than 50 shafts in your inventory for anyone to make a fair assessment.

Additionally, what do you mean by higher growth ring shafts? We mean tight almost to the point where you cannot count them.
Typical example:
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/cuecomponents_2259_34566000

No one on God's green earth is ever going to tell me that any 6 or 8 growth ring shafts will be as dense, as heavy and play as well as the photo above. Neophytes don't have superb shafts as these because they don't want to supply them nor do they want the expense associated with purchasing or hunting them down. They are not readliy available; 6 and 8 rings are all over the place as many of the more knowledgeable cue makers will attest.
 
DoubleD said:
It's too bad there aren't ways to check that.

I'm inventing 'Science'. Science will be a way in which people, known as 'scientists' will be able to make a hypothesis and test that hypothesis.

dld
Click to expand...

A scale and this ?:grin-square:
 

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JoeyInCali said:
DoubleD said:
A scale and this ?:grin-square:
Click to expand...

I've used a similar scale setting( originally done for golf shafts) on pool shafts.
And you never know for sure. Usually more is stiffer, but you can't just look at ring count and
say it's a broom stick. Same with low. Maybe if they all came from the same tree, but not if random lots.
I've cried as I threw out 20+ rpi shafts that just fuzzed up and weighed nothing.
I haven't handled as many shafts as a dealer, but I have 800 in house right now plus what ever
I've used in 16 years. Those 800 started as around about 900. 100 culled and thrown out. A surprising number of those were over 10 rpi

I'd pay money to see Joe and Bob in a debate.
Click to expand...
 
There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.
Will Rogers
Click to expand...

When I was a kid my dad had an electric fence that went from the side of his shop all the way around a pasture behind it. I can't tell you how many times or how hard us kids would laugh when someone would go around the side of his shop to pee and we would hear them yell "ouch."
 
Joe Barringer said:
It's nice to see an experienced and knowledgeable supplier who handles more than 50-100 shafts a year make the correct assessment. We've seen know-it-alls come on here in the past, who won't pay more than $3 for a shaft, who barely have $500 in wood inventory nor have they ever seen 1,000 shafts all at once make the most incredible and uncredible statements. Those of us who are familiar with quantites of shaft wood all know that tighter grain almost always equals heaver and denser shaft wood.

For the most part, more growth rings equals denser and heavier shafts. We handle thousands of higher growth ring shafts and most, nearly all are heavier than their lower growth ring counterparts. Of course it takes more than 50 shafts in your inventory for anyone to make a fair assessment.

Additionally, what do you mean by higher growth ring shafts? We mean tight almost to the point where you cannot count them.
Typical example:
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/cuecomponents_2259_34566000

No one on God's green earth is ever going to tell me that any 6 or 8 growth ring shafts will be as dense, as heavy and play as well as the photo above. Neophytes don't have superb shafts as these because they don't want to supply them nor do they want the expense associated with purchasing or hunting them down. They are not readliy available; 6 and 8 rings are all over the place as many of the more knowledgeable cue makers will attest.
Click to expand...

Joe........... I just bounce em and listen for the tone......................

LOL
 
JoeyInCali said:
That's what I read too.
I've come across ugly 6-8 rpi's that are stiff and heavy.
But, for the most parts, higher rpi's are denser ( NOT ALWAYS OF COURSE ). NOT ALWAYS.
But, if someone has been cutting shaft hundreds and hundreds times and years, you would think he'd come to the same
conclusion.
Unless we're missing something.
I guess rules change according to supply or something.
Low ring count shafts are plentiful. Why not look for 6 rpi's ? Hell, they're cheap and plentiful. You can get them in pallets.
Those who pay good dollar for 8-12 squares from the infamous snake oil salesman ( guess what ring count you're going to get more ) are suckers.
You can get them in sanded dowels without the AAA stories.

I agree.

Sorry, I don't agree. I like them like in the pic attached here. Pretty white shafts are plentiful from Canada.
These aren't $12 squares with lovely stories.




Pricing

The following table shows our price structure, based on rings per inch and grade.


Ring count Grade
1 2 3 4
7-9 $10 $8 $6 $6
10-12 $14 $12 $8 $7
13-15 $18 $16 $10 $8
16-20 $22 $20 $12 $10
20+ $30 $30 $20 $15[/B][/COLOR]
Lower ring count, lower price from another dealer.
.
Click to expand...


Joey,



Joey,

There are many permutations of criteria when classifying shaft wood. It just seems to me that shaft merchants have got to find away to charge more for different grades and the most obvious way is to charge per growth ring category as you have shown above in your price schedule chart not density for example.

When selling wood you must create a system whereby the buyer can have some objective observation for quality. Since most people can count, the ring count is the perfect solution. If you ordered 14 to 18 GPI and that is what is delivered to you how can you complain when you get the high growth noodles that are light weight and wiggle in the middle between centers as low as 1200 rpm. Lets face it you paid for growth rings.

I believe the better way for the replete and circumspect cue maker to purchase his wood is to do it himself and avoid the big pig in a poke method of buying dowels that came from palets of squares from any number of random planks. It is like putting the cart in front of the horse.

I believe the best way is to read the end grain and face of the planks of kiln dried 5/4 stock from Upper Peninsula Michigan near Iron Mt. When you pick planks you can collate out desirable boards and at the end of the classification inspection just weigh them and select only those boards that meet your inspection criteria and have a total weight per unit volume per board foot that you feel makes the grade for your individual use or standard.

It has been said here that people who practice this type of discipline are looking for cheap wood insinuating a lack of quality control for the protection of the pocket book when it is just the opposite that is true. The hours spent culling through hundreds of planks to just get a few has a value that out weighs monetary consideration. It is called raising the bar of expectation. Then one has to consider the time spent chopping to length, band sawing squares, and then running them through a doweling machine that is a hefty capitol investment just to get a 1" dowel 30 inches long.

I guess it is much easier to order shaft wood on the phone or the internet and have stuff delivered to your door. The only thing wrong with that is you have no control of the wood you are building your shafts out of but you surly can get the "feel good thing" happening because your were delivered the ring count you ordered. In the end a good cue maker will reject those unit he feels won't make a good shaft for his cues. Therein lies the rub!!

Also I never said you can't get good shaft wood with high growth rings. Density is density. Collation and classification has to have a methodology for obtaining product that meets your individual standard.

JMO,

Rick
 
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