What is force follow?
- Thread starter Nostroke
- Start date
An example of force follow would be when cutting a ball in the pocket and using extreme follow, so after the cue ball squirts off the object ball at the natural angle it hooks forward, forcing it to go in a path that was very unnatural while picking up speed as the extreme spin starts getting traction on the cloth. Force draw is the same in reverse.
Another example of force follow is when pocketing a ball close to the rail and the cue ball bounces back off the rail but the extreme top spin forces it back to the rail, often numerous times. Simply means it is forcing the cue ball to go forward very forcably in a direction that is not natural for it to go.
Another example of force follow is when pocketing a ball close to the rail and the cue ball bounces back off the rail but the extreme top spin forces it back to the rail, often numerous times. Simply means it is forcing the cue ball to go forward very forcably in a direction that is not natural for it to go.
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An example:
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/
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Only one example. I have used a little inside english as well. Cueman said it well.
DC
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/
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Only one example. I have used a little inside english as well. Cueman said it well.
DC
cueman said:
I think this is a good explanation of what force follow can do.
I think another question here is how do you get the cue to do this? Please correct me if I'm wrong or maybe someone could even word it better than me.
Difference between 'normal' follow and 'force follow'?
Everyone on here knows how to get normal follow so I can skip that part. I think there is more than just increased speed involved with getting 'force follow'. You can play a normal follow shot with an open bridge. I think it would be very difficult to play a force follow shot with an open bridge. You need to keep the cue tip from glancing up, keeping it in contact with the cue as long as possible. When I shoot a force follow shot I use a closed bridge and confine the space in the bridge slightly by closing down my first finger just a little more than I would on a normal stoke. Cueing fairly high on the cue ball and stoking strong. This keeps the cue tip on the cue ball just a little longer.
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The only Force Follow that I know is where you want the Cue ball to go forward but not on the regular natural follow path. Buddy Hall comes with a very impressive Force Follow shot in the finals of the 98 Open playing Tang Hoa......Kim Davenport was commentating with Nick Varner. They both were guessing how Buddy would get shape because regular follow would take the cue ball way down table. After the shot....Kim says "Wow, I didn't see that coming, Not one person clapped, In some places that shot would bring down the house." If you haven't seen this match, Buddy Hall puts on a clinic...It's worth buying. Buddy makes it look like he could put the cue ball on a dime anywhere on the table. Great match,.
Nostroke said:
I understand the term to mean the latter, that is, stunning forward slightly using a firm hit. Having said that, though, I've also frequently run into use of the term to describe a powerful follow on which the overspin causes a bend of the cueball on its path after hitting the object ball.
Having said that, however, pool language, like other language, evolves through usage, so perhaps the term once used primarily to describe the firm stun shot is gradually gaining popularity in describing something else.
To anybody who has written a book on pool or prepared pool instructional materials, have you used the term "force follow" and how would you define it?
Nostroke said:
Been thinking about this. I haven't written a book, but 'force follow' is a term I've heard many times. Force follow to me is having enough forward spin on the cue ball when it makes contact with the object ball that it doesn't lose all it's spin. In other words, the cue ball follows by more than just its forward momentum. I think generally this is done with more than just a hair of top.
During Buddy's match....Nick Varner calls this shot with a hair of top with a very very very firm hit where the ball sort of drifts on the regular follow line on almost a straight in shot "Force Follow". I've never heard of the extreme top english shot being called "Force Follow". Danny D. calls the extreme top english shot that spins back into the rail and stays "karata Chop" english.......LOL.
The way I've mostly heard it used is for follow shots where the object ball is very close to the cue ball and a special stroke is used to avoid double-hitting the cue ball. Usually great follow and spin end up on the cue ball. Force draw is similar, and Mike Massey does several force draw shots in his exhibitions.Nostroke said:
I think I have not heard the term used to mean just "follow with a lot of force" or "stun follow."
Has anyone looked in Shamos' Encyclopedia yet?
Bob Jewett said:
Ok that is three clearly different definitions so far from posters of experience and credibility. There is at least one more common usage which is simple follow. I even have a bookmark from "The Monk" where he diagrams a simple follow shot he calls it force follow.
Nostroke said:
Ut oh. That jogged my memory. I've mentioned on here before that my memory stinks.
I do now remember hearing the term 'force follow' being used just as the correct name of a normal follow shot. It was like the term 'follow shot' was simply an abbreviation of the real term 'force follow shot'. I also remember when I heard this, I thought to myself that this was different than the definition I had assumed before that. I don't remember who was talking but it was someone that I respected what they said.
I believe it will be OK to ignore that definition.Nostroke said:
I think "force follow" should only be used to describe shots made with maximal high English, for maximal follow effect. Surely a lot of the confusion comes from Jim Rempe - who on his instructional tapes and Accu-Stats tapes continually uses "force follow" to describe shots where he uses "stun effect", but cues slightly above center so that the cue ball drifts slightly forward of the tangent line (I have examples of him calling it force follow when the cue ball only moves a few inches after contact, but slightly forward of the tangent line).
Who are you going to believe, me or someone who has devoted his whole life to excellence at the highest level (I think Jimmy is one of the greatest players ever, one of my top 5 favorites - I just hope he's not reading this thread)?
P.S.- when he's breaking clusters in straight pool he refuses to call his "insurance ball" an insurance ball or a safety valve. He often calls it a key ball, which most players understand to be the ball that sets you up for the break shot. He may not have the clearest nomenclature, but he has for sure mastered the principles - I study all of his tapes yearly.
Who are you going to believe, me or someone who has devoted his whole life to excellence at the highest level (I think Jimmy is one of the greatest players ever, one of my top 5 favorites - I just hope he's not reading this thread)?
P.S.- when he's breaking clusters in straight pool he refuses to call his "insurance ball" an insurance ball or a safety valve. He often calls it a key ball, which most players understand to be the ball that sets you up for the break shot. He may not have the clearest nomenclature, but he has for sure mastered the principles - I study all of his tapes yearly.
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Bob Jewett said:
Hmmm? Im reading between the lines here and i think i agree with you.
But back to force follow- you can ignore that definition but you cant ignore the possibility that that is what one means when they use the term. Here on the E Coast, i think it is the most common usage of them all!
Williebetmore said:
Actually, Willie, in straight pool, the term "force follow" is occasionally used to describe the powerful follow shot that is required to get the cue ball to burrow through the pack on a break shot. Tony Robles is particularly skilled at this kind of stroke, in which the cue ball hits the pack and then seems to catch a second gear, enabling it to power its way through the whole pack.
Well, OK, if you're trying to document word useage -- like Shamos does in his Illustrated Encyclopedia of Billiards -- then you have to accept all definitions in common usage. The ones that seem to be on the list (ignoring that certain one) are:Nostroke said:
Any follow shot played with a lot of force and follow, often producing a curving cue ball.
A follow shot that is more correctly called stun follow.
A follow shot with the object ball very close to the cue ball, played with a lot of follow and usually side spin, which is called "fouette" in Europe.
What I think of force follow is when the cue ball is struck in a with enough follow spin to cause it to continue in a forward direction because of the spin and not the momentum.
So, the cue ball for example may hit an object ball, hesitate or even stop, then continue forward after impact.
In other words, the follow spin of the cue ball is what drives it's ongoing forward momentum, not it's inertia.
Chris
So, the cue ball for example may hit an object ball, hesitate or even stop, then continue forward after impact.
In other words, the follow spin of the cue ball is what drives it's ongoing forward momentum, not it's inertia.
Chris