What is pocket speed?

ShootingArts said:
What I normally consider pocket speed is different however. I believe defining it as the speed that gives the best chance of falling is the best definition. It is very hard to jaw a ball shot at pocket speed.

Hu
Click to expand...
Following up on Hu.

Pocket speed is relative to the angle you are shooting at. If you are at an angle that you will hit a pocket facing - pocket speed will allow you to hit one or both facings and then drop, rather than hit two (or more) facings and jaw or even eject. If you hit one facing and jaw the ball, well you have hit the ball just under pocket speed. An example of this comes up when you are shooting at an extreme angle and hit the rail just before the pocket. If you shoot at pocket speed, you will still pocket the ball. Also, pocket speed can be affected by (not an exhaustive list):
the size of the pocket, the facing angles, the type of shims used, the speed of the cloth, and the pocket shelf.

For a straight in shot, pocket speed results in the ball not hitting the back of the pocket. Another way to think of it is that the ball has just enough speed to fall into the hole. For straight in shots, pocket speed is more relevant for cue ball position than pocketing the object ball.

-td
 
CaptiveBred said:
to me, pocket speed is:

The speed at which the object ball has the best chance of falling if it is hit poorly.

Usually it is referenced when talking about just under the maximum speed limit of the pocket.

If you hit a ball with pocket speed in mind, you are ensuring the pocket will hold a less than perfectly aimed ball...

The faster the ball is traveling, the more likely the pocket will spit it out. So, pocket speed is anywhere under that speed /shrug
Click to expand...


CB.....That is exactly as I understand it.

More simply, pocket speed is the speed at which you have the benefit of the largest error factor in pocketing a ball.
 
For any particular shot, "pocket speed" is that speed which gives the object ball the highest percentage chance to fall if it happens to hit a pocket point or facing on the way in.

I like "lag/lagging/lagged the object ball" to describe those one pocket or other shots where the goal is to leave the object ball in the jaws of the pocket in the event of a miss. It is the same basic idea as when you "lag" your putt in golf, with the goal in mind of leaving the golf ball as near to the hole as possible if you miss the putt.
 
ShootingArts said:
... To give one more speed description, if the pocket wasn't there, the ball would roll less than eighteen inches further on the longer shots with a chance to roll off, less than a foot further on the shorter shots.

Hu
Click to expand...
With this definition you would lose a lot of games of One Pocket :)

Many words have multiple meanings, and apparently "pocket speed" has different meanings in different games. In One Pocket the whole advantage of pocket speed is definitely to eliminate any significant rebound -- sometimes only a couple of inches of rebound might give up a bank! Let's say you're both down to the last ball, a 12" - 18" accidental rebound up the side rail would very often hand over game ball to your opponent.

What's wrong with "make speed" for that comfortable range where the object ball can take maximum advantage of the table's slop/roll-off conditions?
 
1pocket said:
With this definition you would lose a lot of games of One Pocket :)

Many words have multiple meanings, and apparently "pocket speed" has different meanings in different games. In One Pocket the whole advantage of pocket speed is definitely to eliminate any significant rebound -- sometimes only a couple of inches of rebound might give up a bank! Let's say you're both down to the last ball, a 12" - 18" accidental rebound up the side rail would very often hand over game ball to your opponent.

What's wrong with "make speed" for that comfortable range where the object ball can take maximum advantage of the table's slop/roll-off conditions?
Click to expand...

Yes indeed. And I thought I was going into excruciating detail
with the example from 1pocket about leaving the ball where
it can't be taken out.

A humble proposal.
Use the term 'Pocketing Speed' for all these situations
<instead of make dpeed>.

Use pocket speed corectly, ie, the speed that will result in a ball
hanging in the pocket if missed.

Dale<not rocket science from a not-rocket-scientist>
 
two things you overlooked

Two things you overlooked: One is that I said "less than" before each distance and the other is that I said if the pocket wasn't there. In the real world if you fail to pocket a ball it must hit the inner rails or rail killing much of the roll.

The game of One Pocket isn't totally unknown to me and I think you will find that I tie up balls and play One Pocket pocket speed just fine. One thing worth noting, sometimes in One Pocket we play below true pocket speed decreasing the chances of the ball falling in the pocket. That definitely isn't what we would normally refer to as pocket speed but an adaptation for one specific game or sometimes a specific situation since I sometimes tie up a pocket with a safety in eightball.

I will continue to maintain that pocket speed refers to the speed that gives the ball the best chance of falling and that isn't the very slowest speed to reach the pocket from many angles.

Hu



1pocket said:
With this definition you would lose a lot of games of One Pocket :)

Many words have multiple meanings, and apparently "pocket speed" has different meanings in different games. In One Pocket the whole advantage of pocket speed is definitely to eliminate any significant rebound -- sometimes only a couple of inches of rebound might give up a bank! Let's say you're both down to the last ball, a 12" - 18" accidental rebound up the side rail would very often hand over game ball to your opponent.

What's wrong with "make speed" for that comfortable range where the object ball can take maximum advantage of the table's slop/roll-off conditions?
Click to expand...
 
CaptiveBred said:
to me, pocket speed is:

The speed at which the object ball has the best chance of falling if it is hit poorly.

Usually it is referenced when talking about just under the maximum speed limit of the pocket.

If you hit a ball with pocket speed in mind, you are ensuring the pocket will hold a less than perfectly aimed ball...

The faster the ball is traveling, the more likely the pocket will spit it out. So, pocket speed is anywhere under that speed /shrug
Click to expand...


that is the best defination I have seen yet, where i'm from n.ca thats what we awalys called it, it is different in 1P and perhaps different areas of the country have different ideas.
 
This is the best explanation of pocket speed...

td873 said:
Following up on Hu.

Pocket speed is relative to the angle you are shooting at. If you are at an angle that you will hit a pocket facing - pocket speed will allow you to hit one or both facings and then drop, rather than hit two (or more) facings and jaw or even eject. If you hit one facing and jaw the ball, well you have hit the ball just under pocket speed. An example of this comes up when you are shooting at an extreme angle and hit the rail just before the pocket. If you shoot at pocket speed, you will still pocket the ball. Also, pocket speed can be affected by (not an exhaustive list):
the size of the pocket, the facing angles, the type of shims used, the speed of the cloth, and the pocket shelf.

For a straight in shot, pocket speed results in the ball not hitting the back of the pocket. Another way to think of it is that the ball has just enough speed to fall into the hole. For straight in shots, pocket speed is more relevant for cue ball position than pocketing the object ball.

-td
Click to expand...

This is the best explanation of pocket speed that I have seen in this thread.... Many people don't realize that if you are a pocket speed player that a looser table is more likely to jaw the ball than a tighter table because of the angle of the facing... But as stated there are multiple factors that can affect pocket speed on a table.
 
dabarbr said:
The other day I and and a friend of mine had a discussion on what pocket speed means. I would like opinions.
It seems to me that there is more than one defination as to what pocket speed is. Many believe that it means to roll the ball so that it it just gets to the pocket.

I believe that pocket speed means to deliver the hit so that the object ball has the best opportunity to get into the hole.

If that being the case then hitting the object ball with the speed to just get to the hole may have problems. The main problem would be that you are at the mercy of the table, meaning that at that speed the table would take it away from you if it is not truly level, especially if the ball has to travel a fair distance. Also if it encounters a bit of debri on it's path to the pocket it may cause the ball to go off course.

My idea of pocket speed would be to hit the object ball with the speed that it would be able to defeat any drift or unforseen obstacles between it and the pocket ( lint. pieces of chalk, etc.) and with not so much power that if it rubs the rail or hits the points at the pocket it will still go in.
If thats the case then that means that pocket speed will vary depending as to where the object ball lies. Balls closer to the rail will require a softer hit because the mouth of the pocket is smaller. Balls more toward the middle can have a firmer hit.

Of course many times it is necessary to hit with much more than pocket speed because of the position that is required for the next ball. For this reason we would like to position to locations that we can utilize pocket speed for position on the next ball.
If you were on game ball and no position is needed I believe you would want to deliver the shot with enough force to defeat any table roll and not so much force that if you rub rails it would still go in.
My main point is that pocket speed is not to have the ball just barly get to the pocket.

Do you disagree or agree with my opinion. I would like to hear other suggestions to this or any other ideas you might have.
Click to expand...

This is from a book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ed...ts=81q0Qfuoyh&sig=QKUIdd18-8-nwMboLrpwq1ZQi9M
 
When did definitions....

..become optional.

Maybe we should take a vote on what the term 'spot shot' means.

Dale


ShootingArts said:
Two things you overlooked: One is that I said "less than" before each distance and the other is that I said if the pocket wasn't there. In the real world if you fail to pocket a ball it must hit the inner rails or rail killing much of the roll.

The game of One Pocket isn't totally unknown to me and I think you will find that I tie up balls and play One Pocket pocket speed just fine. One thing worth noting, sometimes in One Pocket we play below true pocket speed decreasing the chances of the ball falling in the pocket. That definitely isn't what we would normally refer to as pocket speed but an adaptation for one specific game or sometimes a specific situation since I sometimes tie up a pocket with a safety in eightball.

I will continue to maintain that pocket speed refers to the speed that gives the ball the best chance of falling and that isn't the very slowest speed to reach the pocket from many angles.

Hu
Click to expand...
 
pdcue said:
..become optional.

Maybe we should take a vote on what the term 'spot shot' means.

Dale
Click to expand...

EXCELLENT IDEA! Here are my proposed choices.

1. Putting a spot in a gun and shooting it.

2. Shooting a dog named Spot.

3. A run down pool hall in South Philly.

4. Shooting at a spot...any spot.

5. A brand name for a spot remover.

6. The place on the anatomy of your least favorite AZ poster that you would most like to be struck by a cb that jumps the table.

(-:
 
dabarbr said:
The other day I and and a friend of mine had a discussion on what pocket speed means. I would like opinions.
It seems to me that there is more than one defination as to what pocket speed is. Many believe that it means to roll the ball so that it it just gets to the pocket.

I believe that pocket speed means to deliver the hit so that the object ball has the best opportunity to get into the hole.

If that being the case then hitting the object ball with the speed to just get to the hole may have problems. The main problem would be that you are at the mercy of the table, meaning that at that speed the table would take it away from you if it is not truly level, especially if the ball has to travel a fair distance. Also if it encounters a bit of debri on it's path to the pocket it may cause the ball to go off course.

My idea of pocket speed would be to hit the object ball with the speed that it would be able to defeat any drift or unforseen obstacles between it and the pocket ( lint. pieces of chalk, etc.) and with not so much power that if it rubs the rail or hits the points at the pocket it will still go in.
If thats the case then that means that pocket speed will vary depending as to where the object ball lies. Balls closer to the rail will require a softer hit because the mouth of the pocket is smaller. Balls more toward the middle can have a firmer hit.

Of course many times it is necessary to hit with much more than pocket speed because of the position that is required for the next ball. For this reason we would like to position to locations that we can utilize pocket speed for position on the next ball.
If you were on game ball and no position is needed I believe you would want to deliver the shot with enough force to defeat any table roll and not so much force that if you rub rails it would still go in.
My main point is that pocket speed is not to have the ball just barly get to the pocket.

Do you disagree or agree with my opinion. I would like to hear other suggestions to this or any other ideas you might have.
Click to expand...

This is easy. Pocket speed is the speed at which Frank "The Barber" hits every shot. :)
 
Find a dictionary

pdcue said:
..become optional.

Maybe we should take a vote on what the term 'spot shot' means.

Dale
Click to expand...


Dale,

Find a dictionary. Very few words have only one meaning even if they are defined in a dictionary and we can indeed choose which meaning to use at the time of usage and in the context of the rest of the sentence. Terms in common usage not found in a dictionary often have different meanings. Some on here consider "pocket speed" to mean fastest pocket speed, some for it to mean slowest pocket speed and some believe it is even less than the speed needed to make a ball so obviously the term is poorly defined at this time. In my experience it is most often used to describe the speed that gives a ball the best chance of falling. Works for me.

"Spot shot" is much the same. One definition I often gambled on was placing the cue ball on the head spot and object ball on the foot spot. That was called a spot shot. Putting the cue ball anywhere in the kitchen and shooting at a ball on the foot spot is also called a spot shot. Ball in hand and a ball on the foot spot also is a spot shot. Any shot where the balls are positioned by hand is often referred to as a spot shot. I'm sure there are many more meanings without leaving the pool world. Feel free to start a poll since you suggested it.

Hu
 
Patrick Johnson said:
When people started using words to mean different things. That was, oh, about when language was invented.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

I know you can't help yourself, but<shifting into spell-it-out-for-all-
the ana-retentives-mode>

This is an idea that goes to concepts - IMHO most people hate concepts
almost as much as they hate Math. You are obviously a guy that likes
to analyze the ins-and-outs of pool, often in great detail.

So... what we are dealing with is two similar, but distinct INTENTIONS
of the execution of a shot.

1. shoot at the speed that maximizes the probability that a ball
hit less than perfectly, will be pocketed.

2. shoot at the speed that maximizes the probability that a ball
hit even less perfectly will come to rest 'trapped' in the pocket.

I know many players would be more than happy to lump 1 and 2
together into the term slow rolling the ball, and get on with their lives.

You are from Chicago, and reputed to be moderately competent, or at least, more competent than a certain widely known<now notorious>
3 cushion specialist, at One Pocket.
So, you surely know the fact that you can shoot at any wide-eyed flyer so long as you are sure you can 'cover' the cue ball, ie leave the other guy no shot.

Any shot you are not highly confident of, for whatever reason, becomes
extremely more effective when shot at the speed of 2 rather than 1.

Perhaps my problem is that this concept is so burned into my mind
that I don't actively think about it anymore, and don't consider that there may be plenty of accomplished players who are unaware of it.
And it is less of an issue in games that are not One Pocket.

The idea of having a different meaning for the same term, based on what
game you are playing is - IMHO - inappropriate.

Multiple meanings may be fine for casual conversation, but one of the earmarks of any disipline is the usage of unambiguios terminology
to describe and define the disipline.

Dale<the Johnny Appleseed of concepts>
 
ShootingArts said:
Dale,

Find a dictionary. Very few words have only one meaning even if they are defined in a dictionary and we can indeed choose which meaning to use at the time of usage and in the context of the rest of the sentence. Terms in common usage not found in a dictionary often have different meanings. Some on here consider "pocket speed" to mean fastest pocket speed, some for it to mean slowest pocket speed and some believe it is even less than the speed needed to make a ball so obviously the term is poorly defined at this time. In my experience it is most often used to describe the speed that gives a ball the best chance of falling. Works for me.

"Spot shot" is much the same. One definition I often gambled on was placing the cue ball on the head spot and object ball on the foot spot. That was called a spot shot. Putting the cue ball anywhere in the kitchen and shooting at a ball on the foot spot is also called a spot shot. Ball in hand and a ball on the foot spot also is a spot shot. Any shot where the balls are positioned by hand is often referred to as a spot shot. I'm sure there are many more meanings without leaving the pool world. Feel free to start a poll since you suggested it.

Hu
Click to expand...

Take a vote = start a poll ??? interesting interpretation.

I know you play much too well, and have done, for far too long to
not know exactly what a spot shot is,
and is not<like all the other choices>

Dale<shooting spot shots from baulk for decades>
 
pdcue:
The idea of having a different meaning for the same term, based on what
game you are playing is - IMHO - inappropriate.
Click to expand...

That sounds nice and objective, but I think you really mean:

The idea of having a different meaning than I do for the same term is inappropriate.
Click to expand...

pj
chgo
 
pocket speed is just the speed which means the ball will still go in if it hits the rails and corners of the pockets first. which means it's different speeds for different shots, depending on the angle the ball approaches the pocket.
 
of course I know the most common usage

Dale,

Of course I know the most common usage of "spot shot" but I have heard it used to describe all of the other situations also.

As for "pocket speed," "pocket speed" or "perfect pocket speed" is often used by the commentators to describe the speed of a shot in rotation games. Either they are saying that the player is intentionally dumping by trying to hang the ball in the pocket for the other player or they are referring to the speed best suited for making the ball. I haven't heard of the commentators being called out by anyone for using the term so I assume them to mean the player was trying his best to make the ball.

It isn't to the player's advantage to hang up a ball near a pocket in most games so it seems reasonable to go with the most common usage most of the time although if someone said a ball that was hung deep in the jaws playing One Pocket was shot at pocket speed I wouldn't feel any need to disagree. In context the person was right.

Hu





pdcue said:
Take a vote = start a poll ??? interesting interpretation.

I know you play much too well, and have done, for far too long to
not know exactly what a spot shot is,
and is not<like all the other choices>

Dale<shooting spot shots from baulk for decades>
Click to expand...
 
Just enough speed to drop would be called something like "shelf speed", perhaps. To me, that has nothing to do with the pocket. The pocket should come into play, somehow, if its going to be called "pocket speed"...

Pocket speed changes on different shot angles so that also implies that the pocket CONTROLS the speed of the shot, not the distance from the CB to the shelf...

Just enough speed to, barely, make the ball, I call "Slow Rolling" a ball. Pocket speed is the maximum speed a pocket will take to allow for the biggest, playable, pocket.

Playing the pockets bigger is what it is all about (if you are in line). To play the pocket as big as possible, you need to know the pocket speed for the shot... Knowing the speed to just fall of the edge has its pruposes but has, very little, to do with the pocket geometry.

Thats why I think about it from the max speed down. Makes sense to me...


"Pocket Speed" is an indepth subject that would be very interesting to discuss as it pertains to the aiming process and the manipulation of speed to gain a better chance out... Too bad this thread is going a different way ;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top