Never got that deep into the crowd. I'm still like that. Names and stories I've seen or heard and whatever comes out the cue. lol...
What killed the slip stroke?
- Thread starter cuetechasaurus
- Start date
I've been playing with a stroke slip since the late 80's. I don't know how, why, or when it started (it just came naturally) but I do remember two specific instances from decades ago where I didn't actually catch the cue and it slipped out of my hands on to the table - one was league night and one was a tournament. I haven't done that in a long time but once in a while I will notice my grip hand pinky-finger is no longer touching the cue and my ring finger is on the bumper and my fore and middle fingers are all that's holding the cue, that just happened the other day while banging some balls. Obviously, it's only used on shots that require a stronger stroke, drawing it 1", no slip, drawing it 4', depends on the table and conditions, drawing it 6-10 feet, absolutely using the stroke slip.
One thing I never see anyone mention is how the weight of the cue affects a stroke slip (i.e. toss). I shot with a 20oz (Huebler) cue for nearly 30 years, then moved to an 18.8oz (Ned Morris) cue for a couple of years, and sometime around 2020 I settled on a 17.7oz (Huebler) cue. From the late 80's until 2004 (I only played occasionally from 2004 until 2018) I bounced around between 9' and 7' tables but I didn't know then what I know now so never really noticed a difference, primarily because I had a heavy cue and it works on both big and small tables. Fast forward to 2020'sh and the only pool hall in my area with 9' tables had the absolute worst tables in the world so I stayed away from them and stuck with the 7 footers and I fell in love with my light cue and exclusively played on 7' tables for the next few years. Then, in 2024 I played on the new 9' Diamonds with my light cue and I couldn't play for shit and couldn't get any action on the cue. I tried a few different things but ultimately I pulled out my original 20oz Huebler and Voila - I was shooting lights out, just like my 17.7oz Huebler on a 7' table. I realized then how much the weight of the cue affects a stroke slip.
The key is, on a stroke slip, you are literally throwing the cue at the CB which means your grip, forearm, bicep, backstroke, have no affect on the cue once released, the only thing that matters is the speed of the cue when it leaves your hand (accuracy is another thing). The point at which you release the cue also matters, are you releasing it when your forearm is perfectly perpendicular to the stroke angle versus releasing slightly before or after that point, I honestly don't know when I release it nor am I going to pretend to know the difference. With the same stroke (i.e. all other things being equal), a 17.7oz cue has much less energy then a 20oz cue and therefore imparts much less energy on the CB which results in MUCH less draw/follow in my experience, I would easily come up 3' short on a really long draw shot using the light cue on a 9' table, heavy cue I was spot on. I actually went back and forth between the two cues to get a feel for it and it was revolutionary.
I rarely play on 9' tables but when I do I pull out the old heavy Huebler and put the shaft from the lighter Huebler on, in an attempt to keep deflection and tip feel/affect the same for consistency. Seems to work for me. Interested in hearing what others think.
I also find it ironic that someone mentioned Cortland Irish Linen (at least Irish linen) because other than my Ned Morris, which had a newer linen wrap, I have exclusively played with Cortland Irish linen with my Huebler's, original wraps from the 80's and 90's. The heavy Huebler is much more used and much dirtier but than the new one but they both have the same feel. The Ned Morris was perfect until I met up with Ned at his house and before he shipped it back to me he repressed it and when it arrived it was like glass and I simply hated it, no ill will towards Ned, he's a great guy and thought he was doing a good thing, but that ruined that cue for me and I sold it, that's when I moved the 17.7oz Huebler. I also have a post on here about installing a new wrap on a newer Huebler I recently purchased. It's a perfect wrap install but it's new linen and is too slippery, I literally want to go eat a dozen cheeseburgers and fries and play for days just to dirty the wrap so it feels better.
Regarding leather or other types of wraps, or no wraps. IMHO, there is no substitute for an Irish linen wrap, I've played with them for over 40 years and haven't found a better alternative yet. I did have an MVP tulip wood cue I enjoyed but it was bit too forward balanced for my liking but, it had an elephant ear wrap and it was the closest thing to my Cortland wraps. I have also played quite a bit with a 50+ year old bar cue with no wrap and the fact it's all beat up and has a dull finish seems to work but I have found newer bar cues with shiny finish will stick during the "slip" and won't play as accurately. I have also shot around with a few cues with "sport" wraps and those simply doesn't work with any type of slip stroke or stroke slip, work pretty good for breaking but that's about it.
And for reference:
The original (heavy) Huebler is #1 in this link, the new lighter Huebler is #3, the newer Huebler (which is heavier) is #2 in this link, the Ned Morris is #6, the bar cue is #8 (I have converted to a 2 piece and it's my current break cue), and the MVP cue is linked in post #1. An honorable mention is the Dzuricky I owned. I played an entire BCA session and took second in individual rankings, it played well, just not like the others I have mentioned.
I would tend to agree unless you're also using stroke slip. I can't imagine getting down on a ball and setting up the distance from tip to CB and then doing a backstroke and then moving your hand (same result as slip stroke) and then execute a forward stroke expecting to know exactly when the cue is going to hit the CB, just doesn't make sense. However, if you're using a stroke slip then you're at least releasing the cue prior to contact so as long as the backstroke and forward stroke apply the exact energy you're looking for then it might not be that big of a deal, either way, not for me.
One thing I never see anyone mention is how the weight of the cue affects a stroke slip (i.e. toss). I shot with a 20oz (Huebler) cue for nearly 30 years, then moved to an 18.8oz (Ned Morris) cue for a couple of years, and sometime around 2020 I settled on a 17.7oz (Huebler) cue. From the late 80's until 2004 (I only played occasionally from 2004 until 2018) I bounced around between 9' and 7' tables but I didn't know then what I know now so never really noticed a difference, primarily because I had a heavy cue and it works on both big and small tables. Fast forward to 2020'sh and the only pool hall in my area with 9' tables had the absolute worst tables in the world so I stayed away from them and stuck with the 7 footers and I fell in love with my light cue and exclusively played on 7' tables for the next few years. Then, in 2024 I played on the new 9' Diamonds with my light cue and I couldn't play for shit and couldn't get any action on the cue. I tried a few different things but ultimately I pulled out my original 20oz Huebler and Voila - I was shooting lights out, just like my 17.7oz Huebler on a 7' table. I realized then how much the weight of the cue affects a stroke slip.
The key is, on a stroke slip, you are literally throwing the cue at the CB which means your grip, forearm, bicep, backstroke, have no affect on the cue once released, the only thing that matters is the speed of the cue when it leaves your hand (accuracy is another thing). The point at which you release the cue also matters, are you releasing it when your forearm is perfectly perpendicular to the stroke angle versus releasing slightly before or after that point, I honestly don't know when I release it nor am I going to pretend to know the difference. With the same stroke (i.e. all other things being equal), a 17.7oz cue has much less energy then a 20oz cue and therefore imparts much less energy on the CB which results in MUCH less draw/follow in my experience, I would easily come up 3' short on a really long draw shot using the light cue on a 9' table, heavy cue I was spot on. I actually went back and forth between the two cues to get a feel for it and it was revolutionary.
I rarely play on 9' tables but when I do I pull out the old heavy Huebler and put the shaft from the lighter Huebler on, in an attempt to keep deflection and tip feel/affect the same for consistency. Seems to work for me. Interested in hearing what others think.
I also find it ironic that someone mentioned Cortland Irish Linen (at least Irish linen) because other than my Ned Morris, which had a newer linen wrap, I have exclusively played with Cortland Irish linen with my Huebler's, original wraps from the 80's and 90's. The heavy Huebler is much more used and much dirtier but than the new one but they both have the same feel. The Ned Morris was perfect until I met up with Ned at his house and before he shipped it back to me he repressed it and when it arrived it was like glass and I simply hated it, no ill will towards Ned, he's a great guy and thought he was doing a good thing, but that ruined that cue for me and I sold it, that's when I moved the 17.7oz Huebler. I also have a post on here about installing a new wrap on a newer Huebler I recently purchased. It's a perfect wrap install but it's new linen and is too slippery, I literally want to go eat a dozen cheeseburgers and fries and play for days just to dirty the wrap so it feels better.
Regarding leather or other types of wraps, or no wraps. IMHO, there is no substitute for an Irish linen wrap, I've played with them for over 40 years and haven't found a better alternative yet. I did have an MVP tulip wood cue I enjoyed but it was bit too forward balanced for my liking but, it had an elephant ear wrap and it was the closest thing to my Cortland wraps. I have also played quite a bit with a 50+ year old bar cue with no wrap and the fact it's all beat up and has a dull finish seems to work but I have found newer bar cues with shiny finish will stick during the "slip" and won't play as accurately. I have also shot around with a few cues with "sport" wraps and those simply doesn't work with any type of slip stroke or stroke slip, work pretty good for breaking but that's about it.
And for reference:
The original (heavy) Huebler is #1 in this link, the new lighter Huebler is #3, the newer Huebler (which is heavier) is #2 in this link, the Ned Morris is #6, the bar cue is #8 (I have converted to a 2 piece and it's my current break cue), and the MVP cue is linked in post #1. An honorable mention is the Dzuricky I owned. I played an entire BCA session and took second in individual rankings, it played well, just not like the others I have mentioned.
I would tend to agree unless you're also using stroke slip. I can't imagine getting down on a ball and setting up the distance from tip to CB and then doing a backstroke and then moving your hand (same result as slip stroke) and then execute a forward stroke expecting to know exactly when the cue is going to hit the CB, just doesn't make sense. However, if you're using a stroke slip then you're at least releasing the cue prior to contact so as long as the backstroke and forward stroke apply the exact energy you're looking for then it might not be that big of a deal, either way, not for me.
I thought it was the opposite.
Could you give us a translation, please?
(That's a "stroke-slip" that he's using, I think.)
The YT player provides optional subtitles.
I think "Stroke Slip" was an agreement between us talking about it on AZB. As far as I know the rest of the world still calls both a slip stroke to the confusion of everyone! Just playing around I have used both on one shot starting off with my hand far forward. Would that be a slip stroke slip?(grin)
I do like slip stroke and stroke slip to differentiate between the two as the names seem pretty descriptive.
Hu
The fast cloth and rails have killed all "strokes" if you ask me.
There is no such thing as a "power" game anymore. They have made the tables so fast that "bunting" is now called a stroke.
In the old days, it took a power shot to draw the cue ball long distances or to drive the cue ball three rails around the table for position.
Now you can bunt and do it.
The game has completely changed.
For the worse in my opinion.
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Hit the [CC] logo on the bottom right hand side and you can choose English subtitles.
In the Aiming Pit where nitty logic, pedantic semantics, and who called - is everything, oh wait, forgot preshot sequence, it still comes out slip stroke.
Ingredients:
1/2 + a pinch more stroke
1 full slip
Have at...
That would be illogical Captain.
RidgeRaider
Well-known member
I have to agree with this.
I have the fortune of being able to play on a table that is like a time capsule from the 70s. Super slow napped cloth, balls feel lifeless compared to newer sets, rails aren't dead, but feel like it compared to even an old diamond. It's 9ft of wet concrete. If you don't have a stroke you can let loose, you're not getting far on that table.
Then I go play league on Diamond with worsted Simonis, freshly polished centennials, and it feels like if I do anything stronger than a stiff poke, the cue ball is gonna rocket off and do it's own thing. I have no interest in going 3 rails for position every time, so I have no "stroke" on new tables with fast / worsted cloth. At best, I can let a cannon off if I need a full table draw shot, but even then I've found myself going full table and off the short rail back into mid-table. Controlling a draw shot on this modern equipment seems like a fools errand. On the time capsule table, I at least know I am gonna hit that draw shot with all I got, and it still might come up short, but never ever long.
There's a group of people in leagues who obviously watch a lot of pro pool, because they try to have those giant big strokes and go 3-4 rails for position every single time on a damn bar box, and they wind up in a crap spot most of the time. On bar tables in league, I design the runs for stop shots, short follows, and at worst, sending the cue off 2 rails for position if I must. If I can't run a rack without having to do some hero shots and crazy 3-4 rail leaves, I am playing lock up safeties til it all lines up for me.
Thanks. I watched it frame-by-frame and it looks like his hand has not yet moved back on the butt at the instant the stick hits the ball. The stick has not yet started to slide forward in his hand. (It would be clearer from a side view.) If that is true, the idea of throwing the cue for a straighter stroke is, well, not consistent with reality.
Nuff said.
The bag of tricks needed has gotten considerably smaller for these new players.
I think it looks that way because when you "throw" it, your hand and cue are moving at the same speed so the butt doesn't slip out of your hand until you near the end of your stroke. I think the general point he's making is that you steer the cue less if you have a very loose grip on the cue.